Gondor and Rivendell - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Errand-Rider Karigan · 12-08-2002, 08:42 PM

I have a question about the rulers of Gondor and Elrond.

The men of Gondor came from Numenor. Numenor was founded by Elros the half-elven, whose brother, Elrond Peredhil, chose instead the life of elves and married Celebrian the daughter of Galadriel and Celeborn, giving birth to Elladan, Elrohir, and Arwen Undomiel.

My question is this... by the third age, how would one measure the family relation between Aragorn and Arwen or Denethor and say... Elladan? On the side of the elves, there has been no generational gap, but on the side of men, there are MANY generations since the foundation of Numenor to the third age in Gondor.

Is the family gap so distant it is forgotten? Certainly the ancient blood between Denethor and Aragorn is ignored (or perhaps deemed so irrelevent it's not worth considering) but what about between Aragorn and Arwen?

the mortal elf · 12-08-2002, 09:18 PM

In response to Arwen and Aragorn, I don't think it made a big difference. Look at this quote (referring to Maeglin and Indril)

Quote:

He loved the beauty of Indril, and desired her, without hope. For the Eldar wedded not with kin so near, nor ever before had any desired to do so.

Note the 'not with kin so near' part. That implies that if the gap were distant enough, it wouldn't matter.

As far as Aragorn and Denethor, are you sure they were even related? I've only read the Silmarillion once, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to remember that the only men in Gondor that came from Numenor were the descendents of Elendil and a choice few others. Denethor came from a long line of Stewards (he was the 26th, right?) and as far as I can remember, had no blood relation to Elendil. He was just filling in.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on any of these points.

Man-of-the-Wold · 12-08-2002, 10:04 PM

Well, the Denethor question is besides the point, but although the House of Hurin of Emyn Arnen (originally, as well as post-WR) was not of the Line of Isildur or Anarion, they no doubt had had relatives of royal blood, and would have been an excellent source of wives for the Princes of Gondor.

But returning to the direct lines of Aragorn and Arwen/Elladan/Elrohir. The latter three were, of course First Counsins with Vardamir, son of Elros and nominally, Numenor's second monarch, as they all shared one set of Grandparents: Earendil & Elwing. As a result, they were first cousins with all of Vardamir's direct decendents, too, including Aragorn.

In that case, Aragorn and Arwen were First Cousins 60-some-times removed, or whatever is the count of generations from Vardamir to Aragorn through Silmarien, Elendil & Arvedui.

While this was known, it was so distant as to hardly matter, and one can hardly expect Denethor to consider in such relationship to Elrond based on whatever decedents of Anarion might have been is ancestors. It was trivial by that point. In our world, no one can actually even come close to tracing lineage that far back.

Errand-Rider Karigan · 12-08-2002, 10:19 PM

That does clear up the question concerning Aragorn/Arwen. But I was reasonably sure Denethor was of relation to the Kings, though perhaps I misread...

Quote:

Indeed he [Denethor] was as like to Thorongil as to one of nearest kin, and yet was ever placed second to the stranger in the eharts of men and the esteem of his father.

And the line of Hurin was said to be of High Numenor, though I suppose that could mean a lot of things. Perhaps I was mistaken, though it appears both were of High Numenorian blood.

12-08-2002, 08:42 PM	#1
Errand-Rider Karigan Pile O'Bones Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Minas Tirith, Gondor Posts: 11	Gondor and Rivendell I have a question about the rulers of Gondor and Elrond. The men of Gondor came from Numenor. Numenor was founded by Elros the half-elven, whose brother, Elrond Peredhil, chose instead the life of elves and married Celebrian the daughter of Galadriel and Celeborn, giving birth to Elladan, Elrohir, and Arwen Undomiel. My question is this... by the third age, how would one measure the family relation between Aragorn and Arwen or Denethor and say... Elladan? On the side of the elves, there has been no generational gap, but on the side of men, there are MANY generations since the foundation of Numenor to the third age in Gondor. Is the family gap so distant it is forgotten? Certainly the ancient blood between Denethor and Aragorn is ignored (or perhaps deemed so irrelevent it's not worth considering) but what about between Aragorn and Arwen? __________________ "How is a man to judge what to do in such times?" "As he ever has judged. Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear."

12-08-2002, 10:04 PM	#3
Man-of-the-Wold Wight Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: With Tux, dread poodle of Pinnath Galin Posts: 239	Well, the Denethor question is besides the point, but although the House of Hurin of Emyn Arnen (originally, as well as post-WR) was not of the Line of Isildur or Anarion, they no doubt had had relatives of royal blood, and would have been an excellent source of wives for the Princes of Gondor. But returning to the direct lines of Aragorn and Arwen/Elladan/Elrohir. The latter three were, of course First Counsins with Vardamir, son of Elros and nominally, Numenor's second monarch, as they all shared one set of Grandparents: Earendil & Elwing. As a result, they were first cousins with all of Vardamir's direct decendents, too, including Aragorn. In that case, Aragorn and Arwen were First Cousins 60-some-times removed, or whatever is the count of generations from Vardamir to Aragorn through Silmarien, Elendil & Arvedui. While this was known, it was so distant as to hardly matter, and one can hardly expect Denethor to consider in such relationship to Elrond based on whatever decedents of Anarion might have been is ancestors. It was trivial by that point. In our world, no one can actually even come close to tracing lineage that far back. __________________ The hoes unrecked in the fields were flung, __ and fallen ladders in the long grass lay __ of the lush orchards; every tree there turned __ its tangled head and eyed them secretly, __ and the ears listened of the nodding grasses; __ though noontide glowed on land and leaf, __ their limbs were chilled.