Genetic engineering, the Golden Wood and Gandalf

[alatar]

Somewhere in this forum there exists a thread that mentions genetic engineering and orcs or something - not that I'll ever find it again - and it seemed that GE is always seen in a bad light. As a former molecular biologist, I am not sure what all of the hullabaloo is about.

The book accompanying my wife's cell phone had pages upon endless pages regarding electromagnetic fields (EMF), and, though no study has shown any significant deleterious effects from the same, show how one might protect oneself from the radiation. Car crashes resulting from cell phone misuse are a greater risk than "EMF-induced brain tumors," yet...

And then I've been reading the outrage thread which clearly shows the link between reading Rowlings and turning to the dark side.

But that's not what this thread is about. But those ideas started bouncing around in the old cranium and so got me thinking about information, misinformation, the lack of information and misinterpreted information as it is today and as it 'was' back in the Third Age.

When the Three Hunters mention Lothlorien, Eomer and his crew are afraid. Anyone who has managed to pass through the Golden Wood and has met the Lady has got to be evil, or at least a sorcerer, which is no better. Why do they think thus? Because they were ignorant of the facts (Gimli volunteered to straighten them out, yet his teaching technique was not well received) and so have replaced data with fantasy. Was this due to the lies and plots of the enemy, the estrangement of Elves and Men, Wormtongue? I don't know. No one remembered anything good about Lothlorien, no tales told to children were of the Golden Elf Queen, and so speculation and misinformation filled in the gaps.

When the Ents enter the scene in TTT, it would seem that the only general knowledge regarding the same is from those old childrens' tales again. Of course Gandalf and the other learned know of the tree shepherds, but the knowledge is outdated. No one from Rohan, seemingly, went over to Fangorn to take a look. Was the lack of 'discoverers' due to what Theoden called 'the life of men,' and that these men had no time for such follies? Was this due, in some way, to the later Numenorean attitude of "well, we've sailed all over this globe and there's just nothing interesting going on so let's settle down somewhere in ME and indulge our whims of life." A Dark Age following the island of the Star? Was the message taken from the loss of Numenor that the seeking new knowledge is a waste of time, or even perilous as in regards to Ar-Pharazon?

Now, on the other hand, the Palantiri allow for one to gain much information about the past and present, yet these too are fraught with danger even if one does not dial Mordor. Like when peering into Galadriel's Mirror, caution is proscribed when using this farseeing device. Besides burning hands and a one-eyed Maia, using a palantir one might 'see' something yet not interpret correctly what is seen. Action taken from the incorrect interpretation could be disasterous, even fatal. Denethor saw the Black Fleet, yet did not see its occupants.

Yet Gandalf, seeking knowledge regarding the One Ring, used books and manuscripts and direct research to find what he sought. Seemingly he used his senses, skills and wits to get to the facts - he even plumbed the depths of Dol Guldur to find out who truly the Sorcerer was. Was there any other examples in LOTR of someone doing research to gain knowledge? Did Saruman, who would break a thing to figure out how it worked, step over some line in regards to research?

Was Tolkien saying something about our world and our lack of information, how best we might obtain the same, or were these 'information breakdowns' just literary devices used to enhance the story?

[Shelob]

I'm not sure if it's 'research' of the sort you meant, but the Hobbit's fascination with their family history could count here. It's nothing huge and grand but it keeps them firmly rooted to the land and to their families. It also acts such that the 'facts' and the 'fantasy' of an event are both recalled. Details may be lost but Hobbits don't seem as ignorant and disbelieving of their legends than do peoples of other lands.

"the lack of 'discoverers' "

This idea has me intrigued though...not only in Tolkiens works (as is more likely to be discussed here) but more in our own world. I personally have a strong desire to learn as much as I possibly can but am daily faced with people who don't give two cents worth of thought to things which not only could but will effect them, and yet these people just shrug it off as being unimportant. Our unknown regions may not be actual regions as they were in Tolkien's books but they're equally as important.

Oh well, I would have more coherent thoughts but I'm too busy now to organize them.

[Anguirel]

I think there is actually a direct correlation here. There are, broadly speaking, two types of knowledge in LOTR-practical experience, intelligence, and discoveries (identified with "masculinity"), as opposed to wisdom, lore, and intuition (identified with "femininity"). While it is not wrong to possess the former-indeed it is admirable-it can obscure the still more important latter asset. (It does not always do so; witness Gandalf, who is practical and intuitive, and realises that intuition can be a solution to practical problems.)

Examples: Boromir knows the state of the war, the attitudes of the Rohirrim better than Gandalf himself does, how to conduct battles, and can see the obvious courses of action. Subtler things elude him, and Celeborn identifies this weakness, telling him to heed old wives' tales more closely.

Eomer and Theoden are both slow to grow accustomed to the legends springing up around them, though few know better the more material factors of the situation.

Saruman is so enslaved by "reality", as he perceives it, in light of his (illicit?) knowledge, that he neglects wisdom altogether.

And in the end, Sauron falls to enchantment, mercy, intuition and providence, while orchestrating a militarist and practical strategy (in contrast with Aragorn, who is led by friendship and compassion.)

[lindil]

Well Alatar, despite being one of those who aided the ban on GMO's in the first gov't [Mendocino county] in the US, and having a friend whose mom developed a brain tumour after, 'coincidentally' being a cell phone 'quality control' person, meaning she turned them on and did a test dial - all day long...

The essence of your post intrigues me.

As usual I found Anguirel has already made an excellent post before me, so, I will concur on the 2 types of knowledge and Gandalf's balance.

I will add that Aule's whole maia clan [Saruman, Sauron and undoubtedly more than a few Balrog's] and his understudies the Noldor, were responsible for darn near all the mischief we see in M-E.

I know there are threads related to this whole topic, but I think the gist of the point is that 'scientific inquiry' divorced from intuition/nature is surely a road paved to hades.

THis is one of JRRT's biggest messages of 'applicability'.

Elvish tendency [when not creating dangerous toys] can be towrds what JRRT termed embalment, an ossification of what is perceived to be as 'the good old days' and their good old ways. Seems harmless enough except for the fact that there is only one present moment for each of us, and for society as a whole, and if we create, or not, within that moment w/ either our hearts or minds closed, we create 'problems'. Knots in the chord as John Crowley phrased it in Engine Summer.

It is these knots, created by Sauron, the ring-making Elves, Saruman etc that the Fellowship and ultimately M-E has to battle through to get to a 'Golden Age' of Aragorn's reconstituted High Kingship. And then of course that new found balance has to be vigiliantly maintained. Re-won, by each person, in each moment...

This reminds me of what did and did not happen after WWII [ not that I'm that old to remember it first hand]. Yes evil was successfully overcome, but by means that were the seeds of our current 'proliferation of weapons of mass destruction'. Certain countries had no problem with them and selling them to their 'friends' but as soon as they leaked into the 'rest' of the world, WHOA!

The intellect is naturally curious and wants to not just explore, but create; there are many scientists undoubtedly who if they could, woulld give a finger or too if they could realistically participate, in trying to create a person, or even an animal from 'scratch' or as close to that as possible.
Just out of the love of the 'science' of it.


Yet what of the implications and aftereffects? Planet of the Apes is becoming less far fetched each day - I just heard about experiments that are injecting primate brains w/ human brain cells... What could be potentially more Morgothian? Sauronian actually as he was reputed to be Morgoth's genetic engineer.

big rant, sorry. But I think this sort of madness is exactly what fueled JRRT to write about a mythical past w/ such a sense of relevance.

--------
One esoteric school of thought [Gurdjieff's] makes it a corner stone that you are not a 'real' human until/ or in moments when: your heart is open, mind clear and one is present and sensing the entirety of one's body. The first time I experienced something of this, I thought, 'this is must be what an Elf experiences'.

It is from this point I think one cen have some healthy idea of 'how' to experiment. Otherwise we end up in one of the traps such as Saruman, Sauron, Feanor and Celebrimbor.

A point on GMO's in relation to this thread: I am reminded of Gandalf's statement to Saruman, to break a thing to understand it is folly. W/ GMO"s are we not breaking and replacing according to our 'wisdom' what creation [ I would say God] has made, and are we really doing it w/ full understanding of the ramifications?

In places where GMO crops are palnted the pollen is spread, and it more or less permanently enters the food chain. Seems like a very dangerous experiment until MUCH more is known. Many strains of native mexican corn are lost forever due to GMO pollen contamination,

It seems to me the same style of tinkering that the Noldor engaged in w/ the Rings. Make first, see what happens later. Of course virtually all exercise of creativity has such built in hazards. But are not the large corporations funding all of this rather Mordor/Saruman/Ted Sandyman like in their desire for short term efficiency and profit, and full of glib assurances of safety....

In short technology and scientific research that is not balanced w/ equal measures of wisdom and intuitive insight into our spritual purpose as humans leads to evil.

[alatar]

Thanks all for their posts, as I wasn't sure that this thread even had a theme.

As shelob states, it would seem that Hobbits eat, smoke and pour over family history - at least that would be something, though maybe not much use in regards to the world outside of the Shire.

This idea has me intrigued though...not only in Tolkiens works (as is more likely to be discussed here) but more in our own world. I personally have a strong desire to learn as much as I possibly can but am daily faced with people who don't give two cents worth of thought to things which not only could but will effect them, and yet these people just shrug it off as being unimportant. Our unknown regions may not be actual regions as they were in Tolkien's books but they're equally as important.

Agreed. Why is exploration so downplayed? Me thinks that we're too busy being entertained to set aside some time to see what's 'over there.'

Though LOTR has no explorers (actually, we, the readers, are exploring ME via the Fellowship's footsteps), this makes some sense as the story line has no room for such. Tolkien does have explorers in the Sil.

Originally Posted by anguirel

I think there is actually a direct correlation here. There are, broadly speaking, two types of knowledge in LOTR-practical experience, intelligence, and discoveries (identified with "masculinity"), as opposed to wisdom, lore, and intuition (identified with "femininity"). While it is not wrong to possess the former-indeed it is admirable-it can obscure the still more important latter asset. (It does not always do so; witness Gandalf, who is practical and intuitive, and realises that intuition can be a solution to practical problems.)

Though I dislike the genderization of the types, I agree with your assessment. One of the problems with me and science is that (at times) it does not allow for intuition. Gandalf was definitely the best of both worlds; an inquisitive mind with a compassionate heart. His was not a mind of metal and gears, yet he understood these along with what motivates people.

And in the end, Sauron falls to enchantment, mercy, intuition and providence, while orchestrating a militarist and practical strategy (in contrast with Aragorn, who is led by friendship and compassion.)

So you are saying that the good side use both types of knowledge. I would disagree as Sauron not only orchestrates a militaristic and practical strategy (as does the good side) but also makes use of wisdom and lore. What he does not account for, as he does not understand/know it, is, as you say, mercy, compassion, love and friendship.

Originally Posted by lindil

Well Alatar, despite being one of those who aided the ban on GMO's in the first gov't [Mendocino county] in the US, and having a friend whose mom developed a brain tumour after, 'coincidentally' being a cell phone 'quality control' person, meaning she turned them on and did a test dial - all day long...

Sorry to hear about your friend's mother, and I do not make light of her affliction, yet anecdotal evidence is not science.

I know there are threads related to this whole topic, but I think the gist of the point is that 'scientific inquiry' divorced from intuition/nature is surely a road paved to hades.

Possibly, yet the absence of scientific inquiry is another road to the same location. Hoping that the mumakil never show up again to harass Minas Tirith is nice, but learning how to counter the same would be prudent.

It is these knots, created by Sauron, the ring-making Elves, Saruman etc that the Fellowship and ultimately M-E has to battle through to get to a 'Golden Age' of Aragorn's reconstituted High Kingship. And then of course that new found balance has to be vigiliantly maintained. Re-won, by each person, in each moment...

Agreed. One needs to get up each day and start running, or the world will run you over. It's that Red Queen thing. Again, as one has said, one might never wield a sword yet die on the same. Each day progress creates new solutions along with new problems.

The intellect is naturally curious and wants to not just explore, but create; there are many scientists undoubtedly who if they could, woulld give a finger or too if they could realistically participate, in trying to create a person, or even an animal from 'scratch' or as close to that as possible. Just out of the love of the 'science' of it.

Surely. There's something inside us (some may say it's that we're trying to do what the father-god did/does) that pushes us to take the next step, climb the higher peak, seek out the unknown etc. Just like Aule, who meant no disrespect nor desired to destroy but just wanted to do as Eru did. I think that it's in our genes, a survival mechanism that allows us to try different things, not knowing what will allow for a better chance of survival. We inhabit all environs of the planet - except for the sea - and one day may even leave Earth.

All because of science.

Yet what of the implications and aftereffects? Planet of the Apes is becoming less far fetched each day - I just heard about experiments that are injecting primate brains w/ human brain cells... What could be potentially more Morgothian? Sauronian actually as he was reputed to be Morgoth's genetic engineer.

"injecting primate brains w/ human brain cells" = directors who feel the need to add dwarf drinking scene (sorry, but I couldn't resist ).

Anyway. I also know that our man-made mutations are bit less resilient than those produced by the whims of nature, and so I'm not really concerned. As you state, we may create PotA apes, yet I'd still be more afraid of the yoyo's in charge. And if another species overtakes us, then so be it, though it would be a bit ironic if we helped them get there. Like Saruon, we may hand our 'enemies' the key to our downfall.

big rant, sorry. But I think this sort of madness is exactly what fueled JRRT to write about a mythical past w/ such a sense of relevance.

One cannot hide; you either run or are run down. Sorry.

A point on GMO's in relation to this thread: I am reminded of Gandalf's statement to Saruman, to break a thing to understand it is folly. W/ GMO"s are we not breaking and replacing according to our 'wisdom' what creation [ I would say God] has made, and are we really doing it w/ full understanding of the ramifications?

How does one understand the full ramifications of a thing if one does not test the same? You can hypothesize all day, yet the true test has to be done eventually. Saruman not only broke what he tried to understand, demonstrating no subtlety nor caring, but also his ends were all about domination and control. If he would have examined the orcs with Gandalf's heart, maybe he would have tried to find a way to 'cure' them of their orcdom. Prometheus gave us fire, and we can either cook food, heat our domiciles or make a flamethrower. And in regards to God/Eru, if we are given the ability to do a thing, how do we know that we were not given a gift of knowledge for our benefit? Surely this is where wisdom comes in to play.

In places where GMO crops are palnted the pollen is spread, and it more or less permanently enters the food chain. Seems like a very dangerous experiment until MUCH more is known. Many strains of native mexican corn are lost forever due to GMO pollen contamination,

But at what cost? Personally I would rather feed people with GMO food than that in which pesticides were used.

In short technology and scientific research that is not balanced w/ equal measures of wisdom and intuitive insight into our spritual purpose as humans leads to evil.

Much agreed, yet to me the problem is not the technology or research, as these are mere tools, but it's the hands that hold the same, and those hands are human and sometimes dirty.

I also cite the Law of the Minimum.

[lindil]

I am of real limited time today so w/ out qoutes and such I am sure you can connect my replies to yours...

I am no scientist, heck , my only science in High School was the bare minimum earth science.

But I do fear large corporations and their desire for profits. Monsanto and ADM being to of the scariest in my limited understanding.

I am not against extremely secluded and guarded experimenting with GMO's but I did not see you address the [for me] essential point that via pollen the GMO [dna?] essentially contaminates [possibly? probably?] forever realted nearby species.
I cited the example I have heard of that many species of native Mexican corn are now gone due to serious pollen drift.

In Europe some GMO company had the gall to sue an ORganic Farmer because of their pollen drift!!!

He now had their copyrighted seeds in his organic crop.

The whole concept of copyrighting seeds which are the worlds inheritance is pretty fundamentally sick.

I can't really tie this to anything Tolkien related other than vague Mordor and Saruman-esque generalizations of seeming corporate intent, so I won't try...

Re: the anecdotal evidence I presented of my friend [which you very tactfully replied to btw] does not such anecdotal evidence become often the basis for scientific inquiry?

We listened for decades to big Tobacco tell us that there was no link between smoking and lung cancer....

I tend to, and this is a direct result of a very strong Tolkien influence when I was still young and impressionable, distrust Large corporations, I admittedly jusdge them guilty until proven innocent.

GMO's are in this case such a potentially far-reaching, and potentially irreversible shift that the greatest caution is needed.

I agree that science in and of itself is neutral. So is in some utterly abstract way and atom bomb till it is exploded.

Many scientists on the'left' or rather outside of corporations are very concerned that GMO's are something of a trojan horse, in addition to the greed factor of proprietary seeds...

One last point, re: the attitude of run or be run over, well in the corporate world that really seems to be the case, every new development not pursued could mean loss of profits or a 'competitive edge' and this mindset has seeped into our culture in general.

I think it is fine a fine attitude to adopt for things such as getting housework done, or training hard in something, but I do not trust it at all when it comes too serious scientific or spiritual pursuits where the hazard of uncertainity is coupled w/ irreversible harm from haste.

I hesitate to use the analogy, but it does seem apt; would not Saruman have said much the same to G?

" we must fight Sauron with all weapons necessary even orcs, or we shall be mowed over"

As one Lord Pentland said, " the solution to any problem does not lie on the same level as the problem itself".

[alatar]

Originally Posted by lindil

I am of real limited time today so w/ out qoutes and such I am sure you can connect my replies to yours...

Thank you for your reply. I'm going to box up some of your comments so that I have a more readable post.

I am no scientist, heck , my only science in High School was the bare minimum earth science. But I do fear large corporations and their desire for profits. Monsanto and ADM being to of the scariest in my limited understanding. I tend to, and this is a direct result of a very strong Tolkien influence when I was still young and impressionable, distrust Large corporations, I admittedly judge them guilty until proven innocent.

Without motivation and incentive, would anything ever get done? Did Aragorn et al save the world just because it was the right thing to do? Maybe, but surely Arwen's kiss added to the incentive. Frodo endured the pains that he did in order to save the Shire and folk therein. Sam for love, Legolas and Gimli for honor (or maybe body count?), etc. And you never know where someone's greed and desire will lead us. Like Eru said, "And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined." Are we not creations of God/nature? If we wipe ourselves out, is that not God's plan or just part of nature where our niche will be filled in by something else? And wouldn't it be funny knowing afterwards that by not taking a certain chance (GMO), that we doomed ourselves?

And, as a skeptic, I distrust everything.

Re: the anecdotal evidence I presented of my friend [which you very tactfully replied to btw] does not such anecdotal evidence become often the basis for scientific inquiry? We listened for decades to big Tobacco tell us that there was no link between smoking and lung cancer....

My father smoked like a chimney (unfiltered, and we live in a steel town!) for forty years. Smoking yet no lung cancer must mean that cigarettes do not cause lung cancer. And it was known early on that cigarettes were bad, as the name "coffin nails" isn't a new invention. The same man is dying of colon cancer, and so maybe we should ban eating.

An aside - what kills me about the anti-cigarette campaign (I'm not and never was a smoker, and think that those who do aren't helping themselves) is that the Government distributed cigarettes to the troops in the wars, subsidizes tobacco yet has the gall to say that it's a problem.

GMO's are in this case such a potentially far-reaching, and potentially irreversible shift that the greatest caution is needed. Many scientists on the'left' or rather outside of corporations are very concerned that GMO's are something of a trojan horse, in addition to the greed factor of proprietary seeds... The whole concept of copyrighting seeds which are the worlds inheritance is pretty fundamentally sick. I am not against extremely secluded and guarded experimenting with GMO's but I did not see you address the [for me] essential point that via pollen the GMO [dna?] essentially contaminates [possibly? probably?] forever realted nearby species. I cited the example I have heard of that many species of native Mexican corn are now gone due to serious pollen drift.

I did a little research and it would seem that it all of the data leads back to one person. I cannot verify if the evidence for GMO-contamination of indigenous corn in Mexico is real or not (no, I'm not in the pay of Novartis ). One bit of advice that I'd offer is that not all conspiracies are real, some people on the "good" side has issues too, not all corporations are looking to homogenize the world for profit and there are good and bad people everywhere. The truth will prevail, and true scientists will expose the problem and hopefully find a solution.

One last point, re: the attitude of run or be run over, well in the corporate world that really seems to be the case, every new development not pursued could mean loss of profits or a 'competitive edge' and this mindset has seeped into our culture in general. I think it is fine a fine attitude to adopt for things such as getting housework done, or training hard in something, but I do not trust it at all when it comes too serious scientific or spiritual pursuits where the hazard of uncertainity is coupled w/ irreversible harm from haste.

It has not seeped into our culture, it just may be more obvious now. We are creatures of sin or animals with shiny toys - either way, avarice, greed, cruelty, apathy and the rest of the stuff in Pandora's box is inside all of us, just looking for a way to get out. How about, in regards to testing, trust but verify?

I agree that science in and of itself is neutral. So is in some utterly abstract way and atom bomb till it is exploded. I hesitate to use the analogy, but it does seem apt; would not Saruman have said much the same to G? " we must fight Sauron with all weapons necessary even orcs, or we shall be mowed over"

He did in a way. His idea was to help Sauron take over, then start working on Sauron to change things a bit. But note that Saruman did not breed orcs to attack Sauron, nor did he help the good side when he had a chance. Gandalf permitted each kind to fight Sauron in their own way, and his way was to send a hapless hobbit into Mordor with the RingBomb. Denethor and others thought that that plan was risky, crazy and would most likely end with ME covered in blackness.

Sure, the Fourth Age was different than the Third as a result of Gandalf's experiment, and things were lost and changed forever, yet, had he not done so, the resulting Fourth Age would have been black.

Not to be too brazen, but science is sometimes like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're gonna get until you take a bite.