Star of Earendil and the star in FOTR

[tinewelt]

This has probably been asked, and therefore please let your wrath at a new members folly run off, and then return to my comfort!! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Anyway, we all know the story of the Star of Earendil. Just wondering, in "the ring goes south" in the FOTR, there was this quote

The hunter's moon waxed round in the night sky, and put to flight all the lesser stars. But low in the South one star shone red. Every night, as the moon waned again, it shone brighter and brighter. Frodo could see it from his window, deep in the heavens, burning like a watchful eye that glared above the trees on the brink of the valley.

Is this the star of Earendil by any chance??
I thought that it could be. thanks for your answers wise ones. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Silver Dragon]

Sorry, I'm not really one of the "wise ones"...but I don't think that the red star would have been Earendil's star...his star shined (shined? shone?) with the light of the Silmaril, which has never been described as giving off a "red" glow...it shone with the light of the Two Trees of Valinor...and Telperion, the elder, glowed silver, and Laurelin glowed gold...but neither one glowed red, so I think they're different stars...

[ August 04, 2003: Message edited by: Silver Dragon ]

[ August 05, 2003: Message edited by: Silver Dragon ]

[Sharkû]

Here is a pretty good chart of astronomical objects in Middle-earth.

Earendil's star is always described as shining white, just like the actual Venus.

[Ailios]

This is very strange. Arcturus is never in the low south. It cannot be Aldebaran or Betelgeuse, because they have climbed quite high in the winter sky. Mars doesn't really fit either; it can only be low south in the summer.

[Anardil]

I always thought that the red star in the South had something to do with the Red Eye of Sauron.

[Finwe]

Borgil could shone with more red light during times of war or great evil. It could have been like a kind of "alarm" for the astronomers of Middle-earth. Knowing Elbereth, she might have put something like that in there to help the Elves.

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

I agree with Anardil, I also think that this red star has something to do with Sauron. It is in the South and it burns like a watchful eye. In my opinion, this description suggests that this star is something evil, like the Eye of Sauron, which is trying to find out where Frodo is.

[Gorwingel]

Well the quote says it was really low, so it is probably the Eye of Sauron. But I never had any idea that it could be seen from that far away.

[Nils]

Should Tolkien's statement about all star, the Earth, Sun and Moon being created by Eru at the beginning be taken into consideration when dealing with the star of Earendil?

[Kaiserin]

Betelgeuse would be low enough in winter - well, depending on the time of day and what side of the globe you're on.
That "red star" could have been Antares at least.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Nils -- what statement is that?? It is not applicable to any of the things you mentioned, let alone the star of Earendil. The stars, the Sun and the Moon were made by the Valar. Not all at the beginning, either. You seem to have got your facts wrong -- perhaps you are referring to an early source? Although his command and his Flame Imperishable rang through it, nothing in Ea was directly created by Illuvatar except the Eruhini.

There is a major red star described in the Sil; Carnil, made by Varda in her great labour for the Elves.

I agree, I think that this star is connected -- abstractly or otherwise -- with either the Eye or Mount Doom somehow. Obviously, Gorwingell, the Eye could not normally be seen from Eriador [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]; if Frodo was indeed seeing the glare of Barad-dur or of Orodruin from his window, it would have been either a sense of premonition or a channel opened to his vision by the Ring. I don't think it was, though. Its position was wrong for a start -- the South, from Frodo's window, was out to sea somewhere. He would have had to sight much more Eastward to have actually been looking to Mordor.

Therefore I think that the red star was most probably suggestive, rather than a vision of the actual Eye of Sauron or Crack of Doom; an allusion to Astrology, perhaps? In other words, I think it really was just a red star -- Mars, perhaps, or Carnil or some other -- but that it was, as you say, premonitive of the red light in the South that Frodo would be drawn to.

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

You are right Gwaihir, Mordor is to the south-east of Rivendell. I have failed in Geography [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] But I think that Tolkien could have used the word 'south' in the broadest sense, including in it all the lands south of Rivendell. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

I think that you are right in that the red star was most probably suggestive of Frodo's doom, rather than some real vision; because it is only Frodo who sees it. It seems that nobody else, neither Elrond, nor even Gandalf, notices the star.

[Nils]

From Myths Transformed, section I

It is at any rate clear, for he stated it unambiguously enought, that he had come to believe that the art of the 'Sub-creator' cannot, or should not attempt to, extend to the 'mythical' revelation of a conception of the shape of the earth and the origin of the lights of heaven that runs counter to the known physcial truths of his own days: 'You cannot do this any more'. And this opinion is rendered more complex and difficult of dission by the rise in importance of the Eldarin 'loremasters' of Aman, hwose intellectual attainments and knowledge must preclude any idea that a 'false' astronomy could have prevailed among them. It seems to me that he was devising- from within it - a fearful weapon against his own creation.

In this brief text he wrote scornfully of 'the astronomically absurd business of the making of the Sun and Moon'.

I was refering to Tolkien's later thoughts on creation.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Well, if it's one of those extremely late ideas that didn't go anywhere, and which tend to totally stuff things up if you take them seriously, then I'd rather avoid it to be honest. =/ They are around, you know. But still, do you think you could tell us what JRRT actually said to this effect, i.e. that the Ainurin creation idea, fundamental in the mythology, did not in fact 'happen'?

Interesting, this ME star-list actually has Carnil down as Mars... at any rate, I am afraid my knowledge of astronomy is not too extensive and as such, cannot really speculate as to the identity of Frodo's red star [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img].

[Marroc Underhill]

Didn't Elrond say the Eye was "Fixed" on Rivindell? Maybe since Frodo had the Ring
and Sauron was gazing at Rivindell, maybe he could see the Eye. Or maybe there eyes met
for a while?

[Nils]

As far as the later concepts go, Tolkien was working on two Myths. One myth was the incorrect myth (flat earth which includes the Silmarillion's version of the Sun and Moon) and the round earth myth which is the correct myth as I described earlier.

The problem he had was trying to attribute the flat earth myth to Men.

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

Maybe the flat earth myth is 'incorrect' but I prefer it. I love Telperion and Laurelin and they would have never existed in a correct and scientific myth. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Be that as it may, this theory was not asserted over the original. To do so would have been a massive, Reformation-style re-writing of the very essence of the mythology; as I have said, Tolkien did have several such ideas in his later life that, like this one, were totally incompatible with the existing writings.

In these existing writings, as is told in the beginning of the Silm, the world was sung into being in the Ainulindale and then wrought in all its aspects -- apart from the Children of Illuvatar, and the single intercession of Eru's own power in the Marring of Arda -- by the Ainur. Eru, of course, was responsible for all of this in the end. This includes the making of the stars, planets and Earth itself.

If Tolkien had thoughts about going back on this whole thing, the very creation of Arda involving Eru and the Ainur, then it was never and could never be realised.

The earth was flat, and then made round. Read the Akallabeth for details on this. We must take this to be the solid fact.

[ August 10, 2003: Message edited by: Gwaihir the Windlord ]

[Marroc Underhill]

Actualy that is correct. I havethe Atlas of Middle Earth and it has a section on the World and it was flat but was made round. I check it out when I get a chance.

[Nils]

You guys don't get it.

[lindil]

Nils you posted earlier "I was refering to Tolkien's later thoughts on creation."

I like to think that I 'get it' as in the TftE forums we have had to parse these points long and hard inorder to come up with a larger Silmarillion.

In our goal to include and incorporate as much from HoM-E as possible that does not end up either:
a> destroying more than it adds or
B> contradicting 'established Silm textual traditions' for unsolidified late revisions.

The 'Round world from the begining of its creation' idea fails to pass the 'canon' test on both counts.

Yes there is much to be said for the concept, but JRRT never fully [or even largely] integrated it into the Silm textual tradition. It remainied a sticking point [like the origin of ORcs, and the dating of the awakening of Men] that derailed JRRT from ever finishing the Silm, and CJRT had to make decisions on when editing the Silmarillion that is sold today. Bsed on logical and available source texts CJRT rightly surmised the idea had to go, even though it was later in concpetion [as was also Galadriel's departure from Valinor with Celborn [Teleporno] and Amrod's being burned alive in the ships at Losgar [actualy that one could have been worked in w/ 'relative' ease.

-L

[Nils]

B> contradicting 'established Silm textual traditions' for unsolidified late revisions.

Why is this so important? The Silm was not published by JRR, it is Chris' book. I should think that the Silmarillion should be considered as just another book in the HoME series.

Assuming point 'B' is to be taken into consideration, then I can see why much of JRR's later work should be ignored. I just don't agree with point 'B'.

The 'Round world from the begining of its creation' idea fails to pass the 'canon' test on both counts.

I don't think so. It only adds to the complexity and beauty of JRR's work. Elves have their myths, Men have their myths and Dwarves have their own myths.

We get a small piece of Dwarven myth with Gimli's song. A moon in existance when Durin first awoke. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

It seems to me that the only major work in bringing the flat and round myths together is how they originate. One myth need not replace the other.

[ August 10, 2003: Message edited by: Nils ]

[piosenniel]

tinewelt

Eärendil is the planet Venus. Venus is known as the Evening and the Morning Star, depending on what season you're looking in.

As the Morning Star, it hangs on the eastern horizon, seeming to herald the arrival of the Sun.

As the Evening Star, it hangs on the western horizon, shining brightly through the night after the Sun has set.

Beacon of hope and assurance against darkness sort of thing.

The red star that Frodo sees in the South could be the planet Mars (Cárnil, 'Red-shine', per Tolkien) - the other close, bright planet in Earth's skies.

Interesting aside: it is nearer the earth at present than it has been in thousands of years, and can be seen in the southern quadrant (position varying from southwest to southeast)

[Tar Elenion]

I think what Nils is attempting to point out is that both 'myths' are compatible within their respective places within the Legendarium. The idea of a (so-called) 'Round-Earth' Mythology is not a 'late' (e.g. the version of the Ainulindale termed 'C*' from ca. 1946) or abandoned idea. The LotR itself maintains a tradition of a Sun and Moon that existed long before Fingolfin set foot in Beleriand (see Gimli's song about Durin in Moria, Galadriel's 'I Sang of Leaves', and, arguably, the narrative comment about the Elf-children and their first dawn in the deeps of time at the end of the Uruk-hai chapter in TT).
In fact most (if not all) post LotR texts contain elements of a 'Round-Earth' mythology. Even the Akallabeth _proper_ (not the addendum) is not explicitly 'flat-earth', and is, perhaps, implicitly round-earth (e.g. attributing to Sauron the teachings that men may sail to the ends of the lands and seas beyond which is the Ancient Darkness (compare to the Drowning of Anadune texts which are more explicit) or from where the Numenoreans might be able to see Tol Eressea).

[ August 10, 2003: Message edited by: Tar Elenion ]

[ August 10, 2003: Message edited by: Tar Elenion ]

[Nils]

I think what Nils is attempting to point out is that both 'myths' are compatible within their respective places within the Legendarium.

I guess I wasn't doing a very good job. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]