One Ring to Rule them All... - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Keeper of Dol Guldur · 05-09-2002, 04:14 PM

I just came up with this, so bear with me....
Could the one ring have been so powerful because it contained the spirit of Morgoth? That would explain alot. We know for a fact Sauron had the power to trap spirits in whatever he damn well pleased (the silent watchers, etc...) This would explain why he was more powerful than Morgoth had more recently been. When his old boss was cast down, he had become a wavering spirit in the void, well so do other spirits, and Sauron still managed to grab them. Also-Sauron spent the better part of himself in making that ring, but wasn't that whole part of him in essence the remaining evil of Morgoth? Just a crazy thought but it works.

Lothiriel Silmarien · 05-09-2002, 05:46 PM

That does make a lot of sense. I don't know what other people think but I think you may be right in a way because Sauron was actually originally a follower of Aule, as most of you know, and Aule isn't bad, which wouldn't make Sauron bad BUT he became a follower of Morgoth so he obviously turned evil. And he only turned evil because of Morgoth which would mean that Sauron got his "evilness" from Morgoth and Sauron has a bit of Morgoth's "essence". That does sound stupid and confusing (sorry about that) but hopefully you'll catch what I'm saying. Bottom line-Sauron wouldn't have been evil if it wasn't for Morgoth. And I guess I'm trying to say that Morgoth must be in a way apart of Sauron if Sauron spent all those years following Morgoth. Morgoth must have rubbed off on him! And even if Sauron didn't catch his spirit or whatnot, as you were saying (which is also a really good point) it wouldn't matter as much (well, kinda. a little bit) but it wouldn't matter as much because in a way, Sauron is Morgoth, not really but he is basically a mini Morgoth and did all the things that would make Morgoth proud. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] And from all my babbling, you would generally make the assumption that Morgoth is in fact in the One Ring, as you said. Was that good, cuz I lost myself a couple of times and forgot what I was actually trying to say!

Lothiriel Silmarien · 05-09-2002, 05:49 PM

Hey, by the way, your a fellow New Yorker [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] Cool. And I like putting the [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] face. See, I put it twice on the post above! [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] That face is so stupidly funny.

Mankáno · 05-09-2002, 09:59 PM

Goldur, in a word no.

Morgoth's spirit wasn't like the others. He as Sauron was an Ainur, an spirit originated outside Arda, before Arda was created.

Sauron was way less powerful than Morgoth, he wasn't not even near as powerful, Sauron was a servant of Morgoth, Morgoth was of a higuer level, in fact, Morgoth was the most powerful of all the Ainur, including Manwe.

Of course Sauron's evil spirit was corrupted by Melkor or Morgoth, all evil was originated in Morgoth.

The ring had part of Sauron's (not Morgoth) power and was forged using the techniques he learned from the Noldor, which enhanced its power but with or without ring, Sauron was only a shadow of what Morgoth was.

Don't forget that Sauron faced enemies much weaker than Morgoth.

Sauron was defeated by the army of last alliance, that has some high elves in it but was mostly composed by men and dwarves. And the elves that fought couldn't compare to the elves of Beleriand.

Morgoth faced the Noldor and the Sindar, nobody among Sauron's enemies could compare to them, Aragorn, Eomer, Imrahil were nothing compared to the Noldor, and Morgoth was only defeated when the Valar sent their army, which included Vanyar and Noldor who have lived for a long time in Aman (so, they were way more powerful than those living in Middle Earth) and they were guided by Eonwe, a maia, and the most powerful of them all, plus they had the bless of the Valar and of Iluvatar, even though, the war was terrible and as a result, Beleriand was destroyed.

There is an essay written by JRR Tolkien titled "Notes on motives in the Silmarillion"

Tolkien wrote that he constrasted the nature of Sauron's power, concentrated in the One Ring, with that of Morgoth, enormously greater, but disperssed or disseminated into the very matter of Arda: The whole of Middle Earth was Morgoth's ring.

This is extracted from the volume 10 of "The History of Middle Earth". It was a written by Christopher Tolkien based on his father's letters and manuscripts.

Thalionyulma · 05-10-2002, 06:22 AM

Hmmm, I thought Sauron was a Maia of Aule? He was the most gifted, and he was corrupted by Melkor/Morgoth.

But I agree with Mankano in general. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Mankáno · 05-10-2002, 01:20 PM

Thalionyulma, yes, Sauron was a maia of Aule. the maiar, as the Valar are ainur, they were created by Eru outside Arda, and before Arda existed, that means they can't be killed (their spirit) within Arda, and only by Eru's will. He was corrupted by Morgoth and become his main and most powerful liutenant.

Keeper of Dol Guldur · 05-12-2002, 12:44 PM

Everyone seems to forget how weak Morgoth became at the end of the 1st age. Tolkien explicitly stated that he was weaker than Sauron was at his peak. And Sauron's evil self was definitly spawned almost directly from Morgoth's influence or driving spirit. But no, direct inprisonment of Melkor's spirit is pretty crazy. Though the One Ring could have been a conduit for Melkor to lend his power to Sauron, like jumper cables. Melkor was trapped in the void, Sauron wasn't. If he still wanted things to go his way, he could have ordered this plan to Sauron ages before creation of the one ring, just in case. That maybe, is a little more plausable.

piosenniel · 05-12-2002, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Tolkien wrote that he constrasted the nature of Sauron's power, concentrated in the One Ring, with that of Morgoth, enormously greater, but disperssed or disseminated into the very matter of Arda: The whole of Middle Earth was Morgoth's ring.

Hmmm . . .Since I've just started the HoME, this idea was quite new to me. Now, I'm wondering, if it was necessary to destroy the One Ring to defeat the power of Sauron, will it be necessary in the Final Battle at The End of Days to destroy Middle Earth in order to defeat Melkor completely?

Mankáno · 05-12-2002, 09:26 PM

piosseniel

That's quite right. It's not clear in the books at all but it's somehow treated in additional writings.

There is a final battle at the end of days when Manwe will finally come from Taniquetil.

It's the third prophecy of Mandos and it's supposed to be the end of Arda. There is even a Tolkien's manuscript where he has Turin coming back to life and fighting against Morgoth, aided by the power of Manwe, and that way he gets revenge.

It's something that anyways is beyond the Valar's compenhension, only Eru knows it as it wasn't in the music.

05-09-2002, 04:14 PM	#1
Keeper of Dol Guldur Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: 315, CNY Boys and girls. Posts: 405	One Ring to Rule them All... I just came up with this, so bear with me.... Could the one ring have been so powerful because it contained the spirit of Morgoth? That would explain alot. We know for a fact Sauron had the power to trap spirits in whatever he damn well pleased (the silent watchers, etc...) This would explain why he was more powerful than Morgoth had more recently been. When his old boss was cast down, he had become a wavering spirit in the void, well so do other spirits, and Sauron still managed to grab them. Also-Sauron spent the better part of himself in making that ring, but wasn't that whole part of him in essence the remaining evil of Morgoth? Just a crazy thought but it works. __________________ "I come from yonder...Have you seen Baggins? Baggins has left, he is coming. He is not far away. I wish to find him. If he passes will you tell me? I will come back with gold." - Khamul the Easterling

05-09-2002, 05:46 PM	#2
Lothiriel Silmarien Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: New York Posts: 829	That does make a lot of sense. I don't know what other people think but I think you may be right in a way because Sauron was actually originally a follower of Aule, as most of you know, and Aule isn't bad, which wouldn't make Sauron bad BUT he became a follower of Morgoth so he obviously turned evil. And he only turned evil because of Morgoth which would mean that Sauron got his "evilness" from Morgoth and Sauron has a bit of Morgoth's "essence". That does sound stupid and confusing (sorry about that) but hopefully you'll catch what I'm saying. Bottom line-Sauron wouldn't have been evil if it wasn't for Morgoth. And I guess I'm trying to say that Morgoth must be in a way apart of Sauron if Sauron spent all those years following Morgoth. Morgoth must have rubbed off on him! And even if Sauron didn't catch his spirit or whatnot, as you were saying (which is also a really good point) it wouldn't matter as much (well, kinda. a little bit) but it wouldn't matter as much because in a way, Sauron is Morgoth, not really but he is basically a mini Morgoth and did all the things that would make Morgoth proud. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] And from all my babbling, you would generally make the assumption that Morgoth is in fact in the One Ring, as you said. Was that good, cuz I lost myself a couple of times and forgot what I was actually trying to say! __________________ Si vanwa na Romello vanwa Valimar!~~ ~~Now lost, lost to those from the East is Valimar! My LotR page

05-09-2002, 05:49 PM	#3
Lothiriel Silmarien Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: New York Posts: 829	Hey, by the way, your a fellow New Yorker [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] Cool. And I like putting the [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] face. See, I put it twice on the post above! [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] That face is so stupidly funny. __________________ Si vanwa na Romello vanwa Valimar!~~ ~~Now lost, lost to those from the East is Valimar! My LotR page

05-12-2002, 12:44 PM	#7
Keeper of Dol Guldur Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: 315, CNY Boys and girls. Posts: 405	Everyone seems to forget how weak Morgoth became at the end of the 1st age. Tolkien explicitly stated that he was weaker than Sauron was at his peak. And Sauron's evil self was definitly spawned almost directly from Morgoth's influence or driving spirit. But no, direct inprisonment of Melkor's spirit is pretty crazy. Though the One Ring could have been a conduit for Melkor to lend his power to Sauron, like jumper cables. Melkor was trapped in the void, Sauron wasn't. If he still wanted things to go his way, he could have ordered this plan to Sauron ages before creation of the one ring, just in case. That maybe, is a little more plausable. __________________ "I come from yonder...Have you seen Baggins? Baggins has left, he is coming. He is not far away. I wish to find him. If he passes will you tell me? I will come back with gold." - Khamul the Easterling

05-09-2002, 09:59 PM	#4
Mankáno Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Tirion Posts: 30	Goldur, in a word no. Morgoth's spirit wasn't like the others. He as Sauron was an Ainur, an spirit originated outside Arda, before Arda was created. Sauron was way less powerful than Morgoth, he wasn't not even near as powerful, Sauron was a servant of Morgoth, Morgoth was of a higuer level, in fact, Morgoth was the most powerful of all the Ainur, including Manwe. Of course Sauron's evil spirit was corrupted by Melkor or Morgoth, all evil was originated in Morgoth. The ring had part of Sauron's (not Morgoth) power and was forged using the techniques he learned from the Noldor, which enhanced its power but with or without ring, Sauron was only a shadow of what Morgoth was. Don't forget that Sauron faced enemies much weaker than Morgoth. Sauron was defeated by the army of last alliance, that has some high elves in it but was mostly composed by men and dwarves. And the elves that fought couldn't compare to the elves of Beleriand. Morgoth faced the Noldor and the Sindar, nobody among Sauron's enemies could compare to them, Aragorn, Eomer, Imrahil were nothing compared to the Noldor, and Morgoth was only defeated when the Valar sent their army, which included Vanyar and Noldor who have lived for a long time in Aman (so, they were way more powerful than those living in Middle Earth) and they were guided by Eonwe, a maia, and the most powerful of them all, plus they had the bless of the Valar and of Iluvatar, even though, the war was terrible and as a result, Beleriand was destroyed. There is an essay written by JRR Tolkien titled "Notes on motives in the Silmarillion" Tolkien wrote that he constrasted the nature of Sauron's power, concentrated in the One Ring, with that of Morgoth, enormously greater, but disperssed or disseminated into the very matter of Arda: The whole of Middle Earth was Morgoth's ring. This is extracted from the volume 10 of "The History of Middle Earth". It was a written by Christopher Tolkien based on his father's letters and manuscripts.

05-10-2002, 06:22 AM	#5
Thalionyulma Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: across the sea Posts: 295	Hmmm, I thought Sauron was a Maia of Aule? He was the most gifted, and he was corrupted by Melkor/Morgoth. But I agree with Mankano in general. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

05-10-2002, 01:20 PM	#6
Mankáno Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Tirion Posts: 30	Thalionyulma, yes, Sauron was a maia of Aule. the maiar, as the Valar are ainur, they were created by Eru outside Arda, and before Arda existed, that means they can't be killed (their spirit) within Arda, and only by Eru's will. He was corrupted by Morgoth and become his main and most powerful liutenant.

05-12-2002, 09:26 PM	#9
Mankáno Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Tirion Posts: 30	piosseniel That's quite right. It's not clear in the books at all but it's somehow treated in additional writings. There is a final battle at the end of days when Manwe will finally come from Taniquetil. It's the third prophecy of Mandos and it's supposed to be the end of Arda. There is even a Tolkien's manuscript where he has Turin coming back to life and fighting against Morgoth, aided by the power of Manwe, and that way he gets revenge. It's something that anyways is beyond the Valar's compenhension, only Eru knows it as it wasn't in the music.