Logical Ring-bearer? - Page 2 - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Aratlithiel · 06-09-2003, 01:55 PM

I agree that Merry and Pippin would have made a good team and interesting dynamic, but I think you're overlooking an important point. The pity that Frodo was able to feel toward Gollum was not just a means to an end (the survival of Gollum thus the destruction of the Ring) but a symbol of the purity of his heart. No one else in the Fellowship - or all of ME for that matter - possessed the ability to recognize the right course and courage to try to follow it to their deaths.

Merry and Pippin were righteous individuals, no doubt. But let's not forget that they both advocated taking the Ring away from Frodo at Rauros. Granted their hearts told them that it was for his own good and they would do it because they loved him and genuinely feared for him, but isn't that pretty much the same way Boromir was thinking as well?

And Gimli did not have the strength of spirit nor the faith in the Wise to complete the task. He eventually would have turned around and headed home because he did not BELIEVE in the cause nor did he trust the Wise the way Frodo did.

Frodo knew without a doubt that putting the Ring in the fire was the ONLY way to stop Sauron. He never questioned the decision or tried to turn away from it once he accepted the burden in Rivendell. He knew these things because the Wise - and most of all Gandalf - told him so. He did not once imagine that maybe he knew better than they did and attempt to second-guess them as all of the others did.

By the time the Fellowship reached Rauros, Frodo was the ONLY one of them left who still had 100% faith in that path. Yes, most of the others would have followed if given the opportunity, but NONE of the others (if they themselves had possession of the Ring) would have continued on the path Frodo took. Every one of them wanted to go to Gondor and would only go through the Emyn Muil if Frodo insisted.

The hobbits all had great strength of spirit and their hearts were all in the right place, but Frodo was the only one of the hobbits who was there for the greater purpose. The other three were there FOR FRODO - his Quest became theirs by default but they did not have the same committment to it as he did. The other hobbits, the Men, the Dwarf and the Elf ALL wanted to go to Gondor and had any one of them had possession of the Ring, it would have gone with them and the story probably would have turned out quite differently.

And Lyta, I agree with you wholeheartedly about Sam. I too believe that had he seen Frodo overtaken by evil, he would have taken a running start and they both would have gone into the fire. I've always believed that Sam's love for Frodo surpassed everything else he held dear and would have sacrificed EVERYTHING (even ME) to save his master - as evidenced by his refusal to get the Ring out of danger of recapture when he rescued Frodo in the tower. If that meant killing him in order to remove him from the clutches of evil, I believe he wouldn't have hesitated.

Oh, I could go on and on and on...

Bekah · 06-11-2003, 02:50 PM

Didn't Sam wrestle with Frodo anyhow when they got to Mt. Doom and Frodo refused to chuck the ring in?

Or has it been far too long since I read the book last?

~ Elentari II

Corwyn Celesil · 06-11-2003, 10:05 PM

One thing everyone seems to have missed is the influence of Iluvatar on the Quest. Of course this is never mentioned in LoTR, but remember in the Silmarillion that when the Ainur marveled at all that they could see of Arda, Iluvatar reserved some things for himself, things that would surprise even the Ainur. I believe firmly that one of these things was the existence of Hobbits. No one knows where they came from, and no one knows the depths within them. Iluvatar created them, and Iluvatar reserved them for this hour of intense need. Elrond said this: "I think this task is appointed for you, Frodo; and that if you do not find a way, no one will. This is the hour of the Shire-folk, when they arise from their quiet fields to shake the towers and counsels of the great. Who of all the Wise could have foreseen it?" Who appointed the task? Iluvatar. I think he took a secret delight in surprising those who thought themselves Wise with his plan to use the weakest among them. No one would have chosen Frodo to do it . . . which was why he was chosen, and as he went forth in the Quest, new things were revealed, born and developed in him. If you look at Gandalf's words to Frodo at the beginning of FoTR, he says much the same thing: "It was the strangest event in the whole history of the Ring so far: Bilbo's arrival just at that time and putting his hand on it, blindly, in the dark. There was more than one power at work, Frodo. The Ring was trying to get back to its master. [ . . . ] It abandoned Gollum. Only to be picked up by the most unlikely person imaginable: Bilbo from the Shire! Behind that there was something else at work, beyond any design of the Ring-maker. I can put it no plainer than by saying that Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, and not by its maker. In which case you also were meant to have it." And somewhere he says he doesn't know why he chose Bilbo for the orignal adventure; he seemed to have been meant to.
My point is this: because Iluvatar chose Frodo, Frodo was the only one who could have done it. And even though he never actually did it, Iluvatar was still at work even in Gollum, who still had some part to play... and played it.

Aratlithiel · 06-12-2003, 09:39 AM

Bekah - No, Sam and Frodo did not wrestle for the Ring. You may be thinking of the time when Frodo collapsed and couldn't stop his own hand from trying to put it on and asked Sam to help him. Sam then took both of Frodo's hands in his and kissed them.

Corwyn - I agree that Iluvatar had a huge hand in the outcome of the Quest (and have a rather large bone to pick with him for putting Frodo through such misery on his impossible Quest) but if we just shrug our shoulders and point to Iluvatar when confronted with one of Tolkien's mysteries, we wouldn't have opportunities for such lively discussions! [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

[ June 12, 2003: Message edited by: Aratlithiel ]

Bekah · 06-18-2003, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Bekah - No, Sam and Frodo did not wrestle for the Ring. You may be thinking of the time when Frodo collapsed and couldn't stop his own hand from trying to put it on and asked Sam to help him. Sam then took both of Frodo's hands in his and kissed them.

No, that wasn't the part I was thinking of. I was probably remembering the fight between Gollum and Frodo incorrectly, inserting Sam in there as well.

Quote:

Corwyn - I agree that Iluvatar had a huge hand in the outcome of the Quest (and have a rather large bone to pick with him for putting Frodo through such misery on his impossible Quest) but if we just shrug our shoulders and point to Iluvatar when confronted with one of Tolkien's mysteries, we wouldn't have opportunities for such lively discussions!

Maybe not....but I think Corwyn has a point. Iluvatar was at work here, and remains at work wherever he is needed. But not everything can be attributed to Iluvatar's doings, or to the evil doings of Morgoth and Sauron.

But this isn't the place to get into the argument of which events are the cause of whose will.

Cheers,

~ Elentari II

06-09-2003, 01:55 PM	#41
Aratlithiel Wight Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 196	I agree that Merry and Pippin would have made a good team and interesting dynamic, but I think you're overlooking an important point. The pity that Frodo was able to feel toward Gollum was not just a means to an end (the survival of Gollum thus the destruction of the Ring) but a symbol of the purity of his heart. No one else in the Fellowship - or all of ME for that matter - possessed the ability to recognize the right course and courage to try to follow it to their deaths. Merry and Pippin were righteous individuals, no doubt. But let's not forget that they both advocated taking the Ring away from Frodo at Rauros. Granted their hearts told them that it was for his own good and they would do it because they loved him and genuinely feared for him, but isn't that pretty much the same way Boromir was thinking as well? And Gimli did not have the strength of spirit nor the faith in the Wise to complete the task. He eventually would have turned around and headed home because he did not BELIEVE in the cause nor did he trust the Wise the way Frodo did. Frodo knew without a doubt that putting the Ring in the fire was the ONLY way to stop Sauron. He never questioned the decision or tried to turn away from it once he accepted the burden in Rivendell. He knew these things because the Wise - and most of all Gandalf - told him so. He did not once imagine that maybe he knew better than they did and attempt to second-guess them as all of the others did. By the time the Fellowship reached Rauros, Frodo was the ONLY one of them left who still had 100% faith in that path. Yes, most of the others would have followed if given the opportunity, but NONE of the others (if they themselves had possession of the Ring) would have continued on the path Frodo took. Every one of them wanted to go to Gondor and would only go through the Emyn Muil if Frodo insisted. The hobbits all had great strength of spirit and their hearts were all in the right place, but Frodo was the only one of the hobbits who was there for the greater purpose. The other three were there FOR FRODO - his Quest became theirs by default but they did not have the same committment to it as he did. The other hobbits, the Men, the Dwarf and the Elf ALL wanted to go to Gondor and had any one of them had possession of the Ring, it would have gone with them and the story probably would have turned out quite differently. And Lyta, I agree with you wholeheartedly about Sam. I too believe that had he seen Frodo overtaken by evil, he would have taken a running start and they both would have gone into the fire. I've always believed that Sam's love for Frodo surpassed everything else he held dear and would have sacrificed EVERYTHING (even ME) to save his master - as evidenced by his refusal to get the Ring out of danger of recapture when he rescued Frodo in the tower. If that meant killing him in order to remove him from the clutches of evil, I believe he wouldn't have hesitated. Oh, I could go on and on and on... __________________ - I must find the Mountain of Fire and cast the thing into the gulf of Doom. Gandalf said so. I do not think I shall ever get there. - Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup. - Where are we going?...And why am I in this handbasket?

06-11-2003, 02:50 PM	#42
Bekah Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Several miles over the madness horizon and accelerating Posts: 431	Didn't Sam wrestle with Frodo anyhow when they got to Mt. Doom and Frodo refused to chuck the ring in? Or has it been far too long since I read the book last? ~ Elentari II __________________ Vocatus Atque Non Vocatus Deus Aderit ------------~~~~~~~~~~~~~------------ A laita Atar, ar Yondo, ar Ainasule. Ve nes i yessesse na sin, ar yeva tennoio. Nasie.

06-11-2003, 10:05 PM	#43
Corwyn Celesil Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: The House of the Fountain, Gondolin Posts: 57	One thing everyone seems to have missed is the influence of Iluvatar on the Quest. Of course this is never mentioned in LoTR, but remember in the Silmarillion that when the Ainur marveled at all that they could see of Arda, Iluvatar reserved some things for himself, things that would surprise even the Ainur. I believe firmly that one of these things was the existence of Hobbits. No one knows where they came from, and no one knows the depths within them. Iluvatar created them, and Iluvatar reserved them for this hour of intense need. Elrond said this: "I think this task is appointed for you, Frodo; and that if you do not find a way, no one will. This is the hour of the Shire-folk, when they arise from their quiet fields to shake the towers and counsels of the great. Who of all the Wise could have foreseen it?" Who appointed the task? Iluvatar. I think he took a secret delight in surprising those who thought themselves Wise with his plan to use the weakest among them. No one would have chosen Frodo to do it . . . which was why he was chosen, and as he went forth in the Quest, new things were revealed, born and developed in him. If you look at Gandalf's words to Frodo at the beginning of FoTR, he says much the same thing: "It was the strangest event in the whole history of the Ring so far: Bilbo's arrival just at that time and putting his hand on it, blindly, in the dark. There was more than one power at work, Frodo. The Ring was trying to get back to its master. [ . . . ] It abandoned Gollum. Only to be picked up by the most unlikely person imaginable: Bilbo from the Shire! Behind that there was something else at work, beyond any design of the Ring-maker. I can put it no plainer than by saying that Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, and not by its maker. In which case you also were meant to have it." And somewhere he says he doesn't know why he chose Bilbo for the orignal adventure; he seemed to have been meant to. My point is this: because Iluvatar chose Frodo, Frodo was the only one who could have done it. And even though he never actually did it, Iluvatar was still at work even in Gollum, who still had some part to play... and played it. __________________ Then came there from the south of the city the people of the Fountain, and Ecthelion was their lord, and silver and diamonds were their delight; and swords very long and bright and pale did they wield . . .

06-12-2003, 09:39 AM	#44
Aratlithiel Wight Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 196	Bekah - No, Sam and Frodo did not wrestle for the Ring. You may be thinking of the time when Frodo collapsed and couldn't stop his own hand from trying to put it on and asked Sam to help him. Sam then took both of Frodo's hands in his and kissed them. Corwyn - I agree that Iluvatar had a huge hand in the outcome of the Quest (and have a rather large bone to pick with him for putting Frodo through such misery on his impossible Quest) but if we just shrug our shoulders and point to Iluvatar when confronted with one of Tolkien's mysteries, we wouldn't have opportunities for such lively discussions! [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] [ June 12, 2003: Message edited by: Aratlithiel ] __________________ - I must find the Mountain of Fire and cast the thing into the gulf of Doom. Gandalf said so. I do not think I shall ever get there. - Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup. - Where are we going?...And why am I in this handbasket?