gandalf as a maia

[Formendacil]

Just to get back to the original topic of the thread, it says that the Istari came to Middle-earth in the FORM of men, meaning tha physically speaking, their bodies were those of Men.

So, to those who knew no better, it was obvious to assume that they were men. Of course, once it was apparent that they had longer life than most, it would be obvious that they were more than ordinary men (wizards, if I may use the word). But only those who knew from whence they came (namely the Elves), would guess that that power came from being Maiar. They would assume that they were just very learned men (and I believe that Tolkien says something similar somewhere).

Now, most of the important Elves would likely know that the Istari arrived from the West, and the nature of getting back from Valinor being what it was, I think they would guess that the Istari were probably Maiar, but they really wouldn't have any way of knowing for sure unless they told, which it appears that they didn't.

A thought that came to me though is that in one of the ideas concerning the origin of the elessar, Gandalf brings it back from Aman, and gives it to Galadriel. In doing so, he practically tells her that he was from Valinor (if not that he was a Maia). Although this is hardly Tolkien's last word on the subject, perhaps it is indicative that it was known by the wise in Middle-earth that the Istari were Valinorean in origin.

[Anguirel]

I did not mean to say that Galadriel could kill Saruman, or would. In Britain, "to cut dead" means to disparage, to do down, to ignore, to insult-which Galadriel did do, to both Saruman and Annatar. I never intended to open a can of worms about Galadriel's physical prowess, only about her pride and confidence in herself and her status.

[drigel]

Gandalf brings it (elessar) back from Aman, and gives it to Galadriel

Most excellent point! And what would Cirdan think about the arrival of these "emmisaries from the west"? I suppose the really really old elf club would be a small organization, and old C would have a charter membership in that. He would deduce what the nature of these emmisaries, if they didnt clue him in. The giving of Narya is no small event either.

Imagine his wonderment at seeing a what would probably be a Teleri built ship coming to his harbour from the west (West). When was the last time that happened? Well - never (I think), considering that the last time an elf ship sailed east, his harbors were in the Falas, some few thousand miles away and some few thousand years ago... After getting over (I forget where I read this, but I am on the tangent that this is the resurrected Glor.) the fact that the mighty Glorfindel has returned from the Halls to ME, Cirdan watches 5 wizened old men w/staffs disembark. He would need some 'splaining - otherwise, he might get a little depressed - "is this it? - there will be more boats - right??"

I am swaying now to fall more under the impression that the wise among the Eldar, and eventually some humans (Aragorn and a few select Dunedain and possibly Denethor) knew of their nature and thier purpose. If they didnt reveal themselves, they would deduce it like the above Cirdan example. An learned ME individual could deduce that - if they knew they came from the west (which would be the key clue): they didnt die (werent men, although they looked like it), they werent elves, and they demonstrated the ability to produce "magic/power/force of thought/supernatural abilities"....

I admire Galadriel even more in her role at the White council and her leadership in general concerning this. She took the strategic philosophy and rejected the miopic, provincial route Denethor took - ".. we have done all this work and taken all this hardship - and what are you Istari doing for us?.." or, from Galadriels POV - "oh great, some more Maia come to ME to muck it up further for us, thats all we need right now..."

[Boromir88]

I did a topic on this before, here , that may be of some help (or not).

I think from looking at these two threads, we will never know who "knew," but it's fun to speculate.

[drigel]

thanks boro!

thought i read that somewhere before - and tried the search function last night but I didnt do it right, apparantly....

[HerenIstarion]

I see no problem in supposition that literally nobody knew who or what Gandalf (and others) were. Inscrutable are the ways... For all elves knew, there may have been a lot of beings Eru installed in the created world they never heard about. Exactly the ground of Eregion's Noldor mistake - taking Annatar without examination of what might he be a travers his fair appearance. And noble ground at that - take the good your Lord gives you without judging it.

In this light, the initial question maybe answered as 'no, nobody in the fellowship, as well as outside it, knew what Gandalf really was'

There are pro arguments a-plenty as well, though:

I do not think such a total igonrance at all probable - Gandalf is a bit free in giving his Western name and indirect hinting and slips of the tongue as well, and there, as have been said above, are people around having enough data to add up 2 and 2 and get 4 at the end of equation. Cf, per isntance:

For I also am a steward. Did you not know?

Denethor is a scholar as well as a politician. The beads may be easily stringed - the rightful stewards of created things, whom the king of is Eru, are Valar. But Gandalf, if he were a Vala, would not find it difficult to get rid of Sauron. The search goes a step lower - Gandalf is a Maia. This intercourse alone is enough to deduct what Gandalf really is. But the tone of the whole sentence implies that Denethor is supposed to know, or have known the fact, and Gandalf merely reminds, expecting him to recall whom he is talking to.

Aragorn may have known:

'Do I not say truly, Gandalf,' said Aragorn at last, 'that you could go whithersoever you wished quicker than I? And this I also say: you are our captain and our banner. The Dark Lord has Nine. But we have One, mightier than they: the White Rider. He has passed through the fire and the abyss, and they shall fear him. We will go where he leads.'

(But that citation itself may be viewed as containing the weak point - Aragorn compares Gandalf not to Sauron (whom he is equal of in status), but to his minions, probably on assumption they are his opposites, not Sauron himself)

Yet the initial question (fellowship's data) may be also answered thus: who cared and had appropriate sources, those knew. Cared not (supposedly) Legolas, Gimli, Pippin, Merry, Sam. The rest must have known:

1. Aragorn - on the ground of being Elrond's foster son and on the ground of being Heir of Faithful fo Numenor, and personal friend of Gandalf's
2. Boromir - on the ground of being Denethor's son and Faramir's brother. (but this one may be a dubious choice, after all, it is unclear if he cared or cared not - not being eager after knowledge, but rather fame)
3. Frodo - on the ground of his studies in Rivendell, of being the Ring-Bearer, Gandalf's personal friend, whom the latter valued more than many others, of being Bilbo's heir, who may have equally learned the truth from A. Gandalf, B. Elrond

As for validity of sources - Denethor I've explained, Elrond - may have learned the fact: A. From Gandalf himself, B From Cirdan C From Glorfindel.

***

Funnily enough, the conclusion that may be drawn from this considerable amount of assumptions and suppositions and speculations I took pains to provide you with may sound a paradox:

It does not matter who knew/knew not what Gandalf was whatsoever. The important thing was he was an exact antithesis of Evil Physically Present, the one which needed fighting against, and he had an authority (based rather on his deeds than his status) to rally the power of Good around himself to fight it. Or, in less words - 'let's go for Gandalf against Sauron, for Gandalf is brave, kind, just and loving', and not 'let's go for Gandalf for he is a maia'. It is exactly when Saruman started acquiring 'status' that his fall began.

Or, go Theoden!

cheers

[drigel]

Quite succinct and almost pithy Heren. The point to me is that, for the Wise and the commonfolk alike, here were beings in the shape of men, but something special or unique about them. But in most physical everyday aspects, walked talked and ate and drank like a man, not as Maia bestriding with their superiority and power. Analagous to Aragorn in many ways - all eyes see a man, but a few also see Hope.

Manwe did know best, didnt he?

[Boromir88]

Originally posted by The Phantom:Being wise and powerful is not the same thing as being very physically strong, very quick and agile, and extremely skillful with a weapon and experienced in hand to hand combat. Glorfindel is a warrior and I would expect him to have much more success in a physical battle than Galadriel.

We aren't talking about how good Galadriel could wield a sword. We were talking about her power compared to Saruman's. I made the connection with the Balrogs to show why Galadriel could contend with Saruman. Since it takes an extremely powerful person to slay a balrog (yes sword/weapon skill is a contributing factor, but it does you no good if you are mortal). It takes an innate power/"magical" person to slay a Balrog, that's why no mortal ever did.

I don't feel any reason to respond to the rest of your sarcasm since you clearly have missed the point.

[the phantom]

We aren't talking about how good Galadriel could wield a sword. We were talking about her power compared to Saruman's. I made the connection with the Balrogs to show why Galadriel could contend with Saruman. Since it takes an extremely powerful person to slay a balrog...

My post was in response to you bringing balrog confrontation into the power equation. This should not be done, because slaying a balrog is a one-on-one battle, a warrior's duel. This is not an accurate way to compare overall power (the sum of all one's skills and abilities). Therefore, this method should not be used as proof that Galadriel could somehow take on Saruman, person to person.

Just because someone is more powerful overall than Ecthelion or Glorfindel (balrog slayers) does not mean that they could take on a balrog. That was my entire point.

I don't feel any reason to respond to the rest of your sarcasm since you clearly have missed the point.

Hmm... I reread my post and I am unable to detect any sarcastic statements. Everything I say seems to be entirely accurate and in direct support of the point I was making. Do not be so eager to snipe, Boromir, especially in my direction. I don't like it. Stick to picking apart my suppositions.

[dwarfguard]

yeah.. I really didnt detect any sarcasm either, just your opinion on the matter.Anyway, i believe the general consensus is that nobody in the fellowship and out of middle-earth, possibly only cirdan, elrond and galadriel had any idea.Correct?

[The Saucepan Man]

Please let's not let this thread descend into petty squabbling and points scoring again.

Originally Posted by dwarfguard

i believe the general consensus is that nobody in the fellowship and out of middle-earth, possibly only cirdan, elrond and galadriel had any idea.Correct?

Well, that would appear to have been Tolkien's thoughts on the matter. As Maerbenn posted back near the beginning of this thread:

Originally Posted by Maerbenn

It is said in the first paragraph of the essay on the Istari published in Unfinished Tales that “none save maybe Elrond, Círdan and Galadriel discovered of what kind they were or whence they came.”

It's not strictly canon, but it seems pretty decisive to me if one is inclined to accept the factual matters stated in the "unpublished" materials.

[Rumil]

I'd guess that the reactions of most humans, hobbits and dwarves (without special knowledge) to Gandalf would be initially that he was simply a wise old man. The next problem facing the 'unlearned Gandalf considerers' would be that he was exceptionally long lived.

How would a typical inhabitant of say, Esgaroth, Gondor or Rohan react to this?

Firstly, Gandalf was a wanderer and may have appeared so infrequently that only folk memories of him existed in a certain town and therefore he could have been seen as the heir of 'original Gandalf'.

Secondly, a Numenorean, the knowledge of their long lifespan would be fairly widespread.

Third, an elf, which is implied by his name amogst the notherners. This may be easier to understand if we remember that in most human habitations (apart from Esgaroth) elves were never, or exceptionally rarely, seen.

I think the fourth likelihood is more believable. Everyone seems to classify Gandalf as a wizard, while not really knowing any details of what a wizard was. Would it not be natural for most folk to believe that he had secured longevity by 'magical' studies, sorcery or whatever? There is some backup for humans with 'magical' powers, Beorn, the Mouth of Sauron and the Nazgul in their early days come to mind. It also seems likely that the Mouth had managed to extend his lifespan. Maybe this was a reason that Denethor disliked Gandalf. The Gondorians had always been interested in magical life extension and Gandalf was refusing to tell the secret!

I guess fifth, sixth and seventh lielihoods are Maiar, Valar, or Unknown. I'd imagine that many went for the Unknown option but that few would go for fifth and sixth.

[HerenIstarion]

It also seems likely that the Mouth had managed to extend his lifespan

Not to drift off despite brave attempts not to, see the age old discussion in Magic in Middle Earth by Saulotus. Mouth discussion starts around post #15. For those with a limited time to read it, short summary - I believe it is impossible to extend one's lifespan without a) becoming a wraith b) special grace of Eru through Valar (this latter may be viewed as natural ability of the organism in harmony with its environment and Eru's laws = Númenoreans before the fall)

Back to topic: for men, I'd vote for elven theory (Gand + alf). Cirdan was bearded (third phase of elven lifespan, see Gillete, the best Cirdan can get by latando angaina), so aged appearance would not have been that much of an obstacle (cf point made by Eruanna, post #25, I more or less repeat it adding up the beard )

Elves must have known Gandalf for other then themselves. But in this case, 'do not judge good brought by your Lord' principle mentioned in my previous may have come into play, and elves (apart from the Wise) simply never questioned what Gandalf was. Position like to that of Fangorn - learning about hobbits, he simply adds them up to the list of living things, without asking for credentials, passports or other paperwork (the latter bent for attestation being desease of modern thinking) (i.e. virtual encounter: 'who are you, father?' 'I'm Gandalf' [some centuries later] 'you are still in business, father?' 'why should I leave business unfinished?' 'wise answer, he is a wise one... he's a wizard' (mental note - smart bearded men who do not die as all others do are 'wizards' - must be special subsection of men, or maybe creatures other than, whatever. Inscrutable are... end of inquiry)

[the phantom]

I stumbled upon a passage today that I thought belonged here on this thread.

Pippin wondering about Gandalf (ROTK, Minas Tirith)...

Yet by a sense other than sight Pippin perceived that Gandalf had the greater power and the deeper wisdom, and a majesty that was veiled. And he was older, far older. 'How much older?' he wondered, and then he thought how odd it was that he had never thought about it before. Treebeard had said something about wizards, but even then he had not thought of Gandalf as one of them. What was Gandalf? In what far time and place did he come into the world, and when would he leave it?

[Halbarad]

Interesting quote Phantom, and in this context it made me think of something (which is probably why you posted it). I'd be willing to bet that hardly anyone ever thought about Gandalfs age, so a question of who or what he was probably wouldn't have occured to anyone. Pippin finally asked this question after seeing Gandalf in contention with a mighty Man. Would anyone subscribe to the idea that there was some quality about the Istari that discouraged that kind of questioning?

Its my first post here, so hi everyone!

It seems to me that the essence of the Istari was very different to that of the Maiar. As I [vaguely] recall, the Maiar were somewhat taken aback by Manwe's request for emissaries to ME. Olorin was afraid of Sauron. It was as if the process of incarnation was scary for some reason - Yet the Maiar regularly became incarnated, so one must assume that in this case its for some other, underlying reason.

That reason being that, as Istari, they arent really Maiar any more. They are not bound by the Song of Illuvatar as once they were - prone to the temptations of power or the flesh as they never were in Valinor, they can fall by the wayside.

IMHO, the origins of the Istari were unimportant to those in ME. It is the spirit that currently fills them that matters. People do not sit around in the White Tower ruminating about where Sauron came from - it is the role that he plays in their lives that is important.

As Gandalf comes as a pure emissary of Eru (well, almost pure ), it is THIS that Cirdan/Galadriel/Elrond/(Celeborn?) sense. When Galadriel speaks with Frodo, they speak almost as equals in spiritual stature (perhaps not /power/). She doesnt treat him "as a hobbit".

Just as with Gandalf. Those of the White Council who did know or hear rumours of the origins of the Istari either kept it to themselves or did not care. Gandalf is a man first, a Maia second. I do not think that the Elves or others of the Wise would see it any other way.

Likewise, when Saruman becomes evil, no metaphysical notions are raised of "an angel falling to the dark side" (or however youd like to put it). The notions raised are of human treachery, limitation, weakness in the face of overpowering force - despair. Again, nobody sits around thinking "No way dude, but he came from the West!" ... they just get on with it.

Basically, IMO, the way in which the Maia-ness of the Istari would be perceived is dependent on their actual personalities. But thats just my two cents.

And on the Galadriel issue, well, "The female of the species is more deadly than the male." Wouldnt be surprised if Balrogs just fled from her presence. (Though I do not think that she'd be a totally psycho with a blade, I would expect a certain degree of expertise. No person could live through, be a part of and witness that many thousands of years of battles without picking up some training.)

Ty for listening to me ramble
Craig