Dangers of speaking the enemys name - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

midgetman · 12-07-2002, 02:00 PM

I know that many times in the book chareacters where cautioned not to speak saurons name or words in his toung. What dangers where there?

MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie · 12-07-2002, 03:48 PM

Maybe they don't say it inside or in ceartain places because it might be cinsidered a disgrace. Also, the ring was only known to ceartain people. You don't want someone to overhear anything about the ring, because gossip can spread very fast. And also because of spies. Especially outside, there were many spies of sauron. And another reason, because it might somehow attract attention to the ring, which was one thing they didn't want.

Kalimac · 12-07-2002, 09:54 PM

In a lot of older societies, someone's name was considered a very important part of them and a direct link to their soul; in parts of medieval Scandinavia it was considered very bad to name a child after a relative who was still living because it would be an invitation for death to take the relative (or the child). And Peter Freuchen mentions that some of the Inuit he lived among refused to say their own names aloud, fearing that if they did they would attract the attention of unpleasant spirits, or lose the protection they had by remaining anonymous in the spirit world. I think this may be the reason that the Devil is referred to by so many euphemisms; there's the fear that saying his true name would attract him, a sort of call as it were.

That strikes me as the most likely reason they would not want to mention Sauron's name. Possibly it didn't make a difference, but possibly it did. The idea would have just been that to mention him was to attract the attention either of him or of some nameless spirits who might do - who knows what? Anyway, best to be on the safe side.

Birdland · 12-07-2002, 10:21 PM

That's right, Kalimac. It was an old belief in many cultures that names had real power, especially a person's "true name". To say a name aloud meant you were summoning the owner of that name to you.

In England, especially, it was believed if you said the name of a spirit or fairy three times you would summon it. (Remember "Beetlejuice! Beetlejuice! Beetlejuice!" [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] )

I think Tolkien said that the Dwarves had "secret names" that they only gave out to their immediate family or such like. This goes back to the old beliefs that a person who knew your name could gain control over you. You didn't give out your "true name" unless you really trusted the person you were giving it to!

And someone as evil as the Dark Lord himself? Well! You just didn't go around monkeying with HIS name! I know Gollum was certainly afraid to say it.

Kalimac · 12-07-2002, 10:27 PM

Birdland, the interesting thing is that people believe it now - not that they usually acknowledge it or anything, but little girls at slumber parties still scare themselves silly by playing "Bloody Mary" which is nothing more than trying to rouse a spirit by chanting its name seven times. It's a nasty game as I remember. And I think the Romany used/still use secret names for protection, these names known only to a child and his mother. (This might explain also why Sauron will not permit his followers - saving the Mouth of Sauron, who's no longer really separate from him anyway) to speak his name - he doesn't want to lose any protection he gains by it.

For his enemies, the name of Sauron is sort of a "speak of the Devil" name, like Bloody Mary. It was interesting how in the movie they had the Ring hiss slightly when Frodo said Sauron's name - like hearing its true owner's name was awakening it. Very eerie, and consistent with the idea that speaking the name will bring you somehow closer to the soul.

the witch king · 12-08-2002, 05:32 AM

I think that the servants of Sauron where instructed not to speek his name when he was hideing in Dol Guldur as the Necromancer but when he returnd to Barad-dur and openly declared him self his servants could say his name e.g. the mouth of Sauron

the mortal elf · 12-08-2002, 02:42 PM

Anyone catch a similarity to Harry Potter here? Maybe they're afraid to say his name or speak in his tongue because the very thought of what he can do or did do was unbearably freaky. Maybe it brought back too many bad memories for those who were old enough to have actually seen him, etc.

Selmo · 12-09-2002, 04:19 AM

The hiding of true names is common in fantasy fiction (Wizard of Earthsea) and in fairy tales (Rumpelstiltskin).

Some names are considered too sacred to speak aloud. The writers of the Jewish scriptures claim that the true name of God was once known by the High Priests but spoken only in a whisper in the Temple's Holy of Holies and never written down in full.

In our own world, we often use euphemisms for things we find frightening or unpleasent, like the phraseco-lateral damage when we mean the slaughter of innocent men, women and children during clinical strikes.

Selmo.

12-07-2002, 02:00 PM	#1
midgetman Pile O'Bones Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Michigan Posts: 11	Dangers of speaking the enemys name I know that many times in the book chareacters where cautioned not to speak saurons name or words in his toung. What dangers where there?

12-07-2002, 03:48 PM	#2
MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: San Francisco Posts: 573	Maybe they don't say it inside or in ceartain places because it might be cinsidered a disgrace. Also, the ring was only known to ceartain people. You don't want someone to overhear anything about the ring, because gossip can spread very fast. And also because of spies. Especially outside, there were many spies of sauron. And another reason, because it might somehow attract attention to the ring, which was one thing they didn't want. __________________ Do Not Touch -Willie

12-07-2002, 09:54 PM	#3
Kalimac Candle of the Marshes Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Flyover Country Posts: 780	In a lot of older societies, someone's name was considered a very important part of them and a direct link to their soul; in parts of medieval Scandinavia it was considered very bad to name a child after a relative who was still living because it would be an invitation for death to take the relative (or the child). And Peter Freuchen mentions that some of the Inuit he lived among refused to say their own names aloud, fearing that if they did they would attract the attention of unpleasant spirits, or lose the protection they had by remaining anonymous in the spirit world. I think this may be the reason that the Devil is referred to by so many euphemisms; there's the fear that saying his true name would attract him, a sort of call as it were. That strikes me as the most likely reason they would not want to mention Sauron's name. Possibly it didn't make a difference, but possibly it did. The idea would have just been that to mention him was to attract the attention either of him or of some nameless spirits who might do - who knows what? Anyway, best to be on the safe side. __________________ Father, dear Father, if you see fit, We'll send my love to college for one year yet Tie blue ribbons all about his head, To let the ladies know that he's married.

12-07-2002, 10:27 PM	#5
Kalimac Candle of the Marshes Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Flyover Country Posts: 780	Birdland, the interesting thing is that people believe it now - not that they usually acknowledge it or anything, but little girls at slumber parties still scare themselves silly by playing "Bloody Mary" which is nothing more than trying to rouse a spirit by chanting its name seven times. It's a nasty game as I remember. And I think the Romany used/still use secret names for protection, these names known only to a child and his mother. (This might explain also why Sauron will not permit his followers - saving the Mouth of Sauron, who's no longer really separate from him anyway) to speak his name - he doesn't want to lose any protection he gains by it. For his enemies, the name of Sauron is sort of a "speak of the Devil" name, like Bloody Mary. It was interesting how in the movie they had the Ring hiss slightly when Frodo said Sauron's name - like hearing its true owner's name was awakening it. Very eerie, and consistent with the idea that speaking the name will bring you somehow closer to the soul. __________________ Father, dear Father, if you see fit, We'll send my love to college for one year yet Tie blue ribbons all about his head, To let the ladies know that he's married.

12-08-2002, 05:32 AM	#6
the witch king Wight Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Minas Morgul, Morgul Vale, Mordor Posts: 201	I think that the servants of Sauron where instructed not to speek his name when he was hideing in Dol Guldur as the Necromancer but when he returnd to Barad-dur and openly declared him self his servants could say his name e.g. the mouth of Sauron __________________ 'Whenever death may surprise us, let it be welcome if our battle cry has reached even one receptive ear and another hand reaches out to take up our arms.'~ Che Guevara.

12-07-2002, 10:21 PM	#4
Birdland Ghastly Neekerbreeker Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the banks of the mighty Scioto Posts: 1,751	That's right, Kalimac. It was an old belief in many cultures that names had real power, especially a person's "true name". To say a name aloud meant you were summoning the owner of that name to you. In England, especially, it was believed if you said the name of a spirit or fairy three times you would summon it. (Remember "Beetlejuice! Beetlejuice! Beetlejuice!" [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] ) I think Tolkien said that the Dwarves had "secret names" that they only gave out to their immediate family or such like. This goes back to the old beliefs that a person who knew your name could gain control over you. You didn't give out your "true name" unless you really trusted the person you were giving it to! And someone as evil as the Dark Lord himself? Well! You just didn't go around monkeying with HIS name! I know Gollum was certainly afraid to say it.

12-08-2002, 02:42 PM	#7
the mortal elf Wight Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away... Posts: 201	Anyone catch a similarity to Harry Potter here? Maybe they're afraid to say his name or speak in his tongue because the very thought of what he can do or did do was unbearably freaky. Maybe it brought back too many bad memories for those who were old enough to have actually seen him, etc. __________________ My imaginary friend says you have problems.

12-09-2002, 04:19 AM	#8
Selmo Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: The Shire (Staffordshire), United Kingdom Posts: 273	The hiding of true names is common in fantasy fiction (Wizard of Earthsea) and in fairy tales (Rumpelstiltskin). Some names are considered too sacred to speak aloud. The writers of the Jewish scriptures claim that the true name of God was once known by the High Priests but spoken only in a whisper in the Temple's Holy of Holies and never written down in full. In our own world, we often use euphemisms for things we find frightening or unpleasent, like the phraseco-lateral damage when we mean the slaughter of innocent men, women and children during clinical strikes. Selmo.