Master Samwise can read - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Morsul the Dark · 08-13-2004, 11:33 AM

Throughout the book were supposed to believe Sam is a bit simple so to speak he does however know how to read as Gaffer says "Hes learned him his letter meaning no harm of course" and all the other scoff...so I must wonder why do we onsider sam simple when hes actually seemingly smarter than half the shire?

I never liked that simple-minded view of Sam and it certainly seems uncharactoristic.

Mithalwen · 08-13-2004, 11:58 AM

I must admit I never thought of Sam as stupid ...and I hate the portrayal in the film ... the radio portrayal of him is much more as I imagined him ... ... I think Sam was probably regarded more as being "away with the fairies" for his interest in elves "walking trees" and old stories rather than intellectually impaired as such....
Sam, although he often chides hims self for stupidity is so often the best judge of the situation - he thinks out what Frodo has done at Parth Galen, he is cautious of Strider and Gollum.....

Also I think it was far from Tolkien's intention - Sam was modelled on the "batmen" of WW1 who so often save their officers bacon with native wit and resourcefulness triumphing over "breeding" and privileged education. In someway I would say Sam is modern rather than anachronistic because of his social mobility. Gaffer clearly thinks that Sam has "ideas above his station" in getting an education when his fate is merely to follow in his father's footsteps. In comparison Merry and Pippin seem like "hooray henries" , mucking about until they follow in their father's footsteps. Although financially Sam benefitted from Frodo's legacy, socially he has reached the level of Merry and Pippin (could the gaffer have imagined their families intermarrying - I think not..) and takes the elected position of Mayor for the rest of his life ..... Same is about the only "self-made man" in the whole canon - not so stupid to my mind........... He is also a microcosm of social changes happening in the UK at the same time as the books were written .......

Firefoot · 08-13-2004, 12:24 PM

I think part of it is that Sam is a more "simple" Hobbit than Frodo, Merry, and Pippin. He is more of the "average" Hobbit. Frodo is, obviously, the Ring-bearer, and he is also 'higher' and more Elvish. Sam is more mature than Merry and Pippin, who act younger, especially in FotR, and are more adventurous. You note that when they returned to the Shire Sam and Frodo went back to their normal way of dressing whereas Merry and Pippin

Quote:

"cut a great dash in the Shire with their songs and their tales and their finery, and their wonderful parties. 'Lordly' folk called them, meaning nothing but good; for it warmed all hearts to see them go riding by with their mail-shirts so bright and their shields so splendid, laughing and singing songs of far away; and if they were now large and magnificent, they were unchanged otherwise, unless they were indeed more fairspoken and more jovial and full of merriment than ever before."

(Talk about run-on sentences!) Sam has more plain-Hobbit sense. His wish in Mordor is for regular day-light and fresh water. He isn't stupid; his values are just in different places. Back in the Shire, he is counted as different for liking tales of Elves and Dragons. Sam isn't stupid; he's just different. He actually has a larger grasp of other things outside the Shire than most Hobbits do, but from the other hobbit's perspective this is queer, and seen as chasing after things that have nothing to do with him.

I'll just end with this quote from A Short Cut to Mushrooms. I think it is a good reflection of who Sam really is:

Quote:

"They [Elves] seem a bit above my likes and dislikes, so to speak," answered Sam slowly. "It don't seem to matter what I think about them. They are quite different from what I expected - so old and young, and so gay and sad, as it were."

Morsul the Dark · 08-13-2004, 12:36 PM

good quotes, this is why i need to reread the books Im forgetting all this wonderful information

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 08-13-2004, 03:47 PM

Yes, I agree with the above points. I think that Samwise's humility really shows when he lectures himself for his mistakes. It is not so much that he is unintelligent, rather he is very modest and very willing to acknowledge his own shortcomings.

Like Mithalwen said, he was probably regarded as being queer as opposed to being thick-witted.

InklingElf · 08-13-2004, 04:43 PM

For all of Sam's simple,rural, yet courageable ways I love this about him most:

Quote:

And then softly, to his own surprise, there at the vain of his long journey and his grief,moved by what thought in his heart he could not tell, Sam began to sing.

A simpleton can show us that we can still sing in the darkness.

PaleStar · 08-13-2004, 05:12 PM

so true...so very true...

Mithalwen · 08-14-2004, 10:06 AM

If Sam is a fool it is only in theway of the Shakespearean "fool" of Lear....

I am not sure that there is a fundamental difference between Frodo and Sam .... just a difference in Status and education ..... "queerness" tends to be tolerated better in the high status rich than the low-status poor in the same way now that bad behaviour will be accepted as a passing phase of youthful high spirits in a teenager from a privileged background and incipient juvenile delinquency in one from a deprived background.... La plus ca change....

Mithalwen · 03-07-2005, 11:01 AM

HI-ing to compare with nobility thread

Makar · 03-07-2005, 07:45 PM

Speaking of Sam being portayed as dumb...has anyone seen the Ralph Bakshi cartoon of LotR? Sam is...well, special. I don't know why they went out of the way to make him look like the biggest bumpkin ever. Sean Astin's Sam isn't nearly as bad. I never thought of Sam as stupid either, and I felt sorry him because of the kind of class system that made him love and adore Frodo as his Master more than as a friend at times.

Neferchoirwen · 03-11-2005, 02:16 PM

I thought that PJ's take on Sam in the ending of the movies is touching. I noticed that he had a couple of books with him as he approaches Frodo as soon as he enters Bag End. The way Sam carries himself in this scene, as I notice, is far different than the Same we came to know in the journey. It's almost as if he's all grown up, so to speak.

Celebuial · 03-14-2005, 06:41 AM

I agree with Neferchoirwen: you can really see how much Sam has grown at the end of the film; however I do think that this would've been more apparent for Sam and the rest of the Hobbits if The Scouring of the Shire hadn't been removed (I know this is probably discussed somewhere else though). I do like the change, but I still think that Sam was portrayed as being a little bit too stupid through the majority of the films.

08-13-2004, 11:33 AM	#1
Morsul the Dark Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 3,448	Master Samwise can read Throughout the book were supposed to believe Sam is a bit simple so to speak he does however know how to read as Gaffer says "Hes learned him his letter meaning no harm of course" and all the other scoff...so I must wonder why do we onsider sam simple when hes actually seemingly smarter than half the shire? I never liked that simple-minded view of Sam and it certainly seems uncharactoristic. __________________ Morsul the Resurrected

08-13-2004, 11:58 AM	#2
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,458	I must admit I never thought of Sam as stupid ...and I hate the portrayal in the film ... the radio portrayal of him is much more as I imagined him ... ... I think Sam was probably regarded more as being "away with the fairies" for his interest in elves "walking trees" and old stories rather than intellectually impaired as such.... Sam, although he often chides hims self for stupidity is so often the best judge of the situation - he thinks out what Frodo has done at Parth Galen, he is cautious of Strider and Gollum..... Also I think it was far from Tolkien's intention - Sam was modelled on the "batmen" of WW1 who so often save their officers bacon with native wit and resourcefulness triumphing over "breeding" and privileged education. In someway I would say Sam is modern rather than anachronistic because of his social mobility. Gaffer clearly thinks that Sam has "ideas above his station" in getting an education when his fate is merely to follow in his father's footsteps. In comparison Merry and Pippin seem like "hooray henries" , mucking about until they follow in their father's footsteps. Although financially Sam benefitted from Frodo's legacy, socially he has reached the level of Merry and Pippin (could the gaffer have imagined their families intermarrying - I think not..) and takes the elected position of Mayor for the rest of his life ..... Same is about the only "self-made man" in the whole canon - not so stupid to my mind........... He is also a microcosm of social changes happening in the UK at the same time as the books were written ....... __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

08-13-2004, 12:36 PM	#4
Morsul the Dark Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 3,448	good quotes, this is why i need to reread the books Im forgetting all this wonderful information __________________ Morsul the Resurrected

08-13-2004, 03:47 PM	#5
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,859	Yes, I agree with the above points. I think that Samwise's humility really shows when he lectures himself for his mistakes. It is not so much that he is unintelligent, rather he is very modest and very willing to acknowledge his own shortcomings. Like Mithalwen said, he was probably regarded as being queer as opposed to being thick-witted. __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

08-13-2004, 05:12 PM	#7
PaleStar Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 43	so true...so very true... __________________ Then down the warrior tumbled/a long and weary way/ 'till at last he rested soundly/ among the water below/ bested by the darkness

08-14-2004, 10:06 AM	#8
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,458	If Sam is a fool it is only in theway of the Shakespearean "fool" of Lear.... I am not sure that there is a fundamental difference between Frodo and Sam .... just a difference in Status and education ..... "queerness" tends to be tolerated better in the high status rich than the low-status poor in the same way now that bad behaviour will be accepted as a passing phase of youthful high spirits in a teenager from a privileged background and incipient juvenile delinquency in one from a deprived background.... La plus ca change.... __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

03-07-2005, 11:01 AM	#9
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,458	HI-ing to compare with nobility thread __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

03-07-2005, 07:45 PM	#10
Makar Registered User Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Oklahom Posts: 44	Speaking of Sam being portayed as dumb...has anyone seen the Ralph Bakshi cartoon of LotR? Sam is...well, special. I don't know why they went out of the way to make him look like the biggest bumpkin ever. Sean Astin's Sam isn't nearly as bad. I never thought of Sam as stupid either, and I felt sorry him because of the kind of class system that made him love and adore Frodo as his Master more than as a friend at times.

03-11-2005, 02:16 PM	#11
Neferchoirwen Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: RtR: 483.3 miles, Fords of Bruinen Posts: 512	Sam's books I thought that PJ's take on Sam in the ending of the movies is touching. I noticed that he had a couple of books with him as he approaches Frodo as soon as he enters Bag End. The way Sam carries himself in this scene, as I notice, is far different than the Same we came to know in the journey. It's almost as if he's all grown up, so to speak. __________________ On really romantic nights of self, I go salsa dancing with my confusion. ~Speed Levitch http://crevicesofsilence.blogspot.com/

03-14-2005, 06:41 AM	#12
Celebuial Wight Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cardiff during term time/Leicester in the holl's Posts: 129	I agree with Neferchoirwen: you can really see how much Sam has grown at the end of the film; however I do think that this would've been more apparent for Sam and the rest of the Hobbits if The Scouring of the Shire hadn't been removed (I know this is probably discussed somewhere else though). I do like the change, but I still think that Sam was portrayed as being a little bit too stupid through the majority of the films. __________________ Ú cilith ‘war. Ú men ‘war. Boe min mebi. Boe min bango.