Maia of music, hide no longer!

[mark12_30]

After watching Phantom of the Opera at the movie theater, I was struck by the similarities between the triangle of Raoul, Christine, Phantom... and the triangle of Beren, Luthien, Morgoth. Perhaps what started that was Christine's line, "...and those eyes that both threatened and adored", referring to the Phantom, but I thought surely could have applied to Morgoth as well. Also, what struck me most about the Phantom was the power in his music; power of Christine, (edit: sorry, power OVER Christine,) power over audiences. "He, the unseen genius", Christine calls him.

In Tolkien's books, this power of music is a recurrent theme.

(First question) What are the similarities in the way music is treated in Phantom of the Opera, and the way it is treated in Middle-Earth? What, musically speaking, are the differences?

And (Second question) what are some of the similarities and differences between the two triangles: Raoul, Christine, Phantom; versus Beren, Luthien, Morgoth?

(Third question) What are your favorite occurences of musical power in Middle-Earth, and why do you enjoy them?

(Please don't get sidetracked into discussing purely the Phantom; keep it Tolkien-centric.) I am looking forward to your responses!

[Encaitare]

Great topic, mark!

What are the similarities in the way music is treated in Phantom of the Opera, and the way it is treated in Middle-Earth? What, musically speaking, are the differences?

Music is a force of creation in Middle-earth, as told in the Ainulindale. The very world was sung into existence out of the Void. It is also a form of enchantment and power. Felagund and Sauron strive against one another in song:

He chanted a song of wizardry,
Of piercing, opening, of treachery,
Revealing, uncovering, betraying.
Then sudden Felagund there swaying
Sang in answer a song of staying,
Resisting, battling against power,
Of secrets kept, strength like a tower,
And trust unbroken, freedom, escape;
Of changing and of shifting shape,
Of snares eluded, broken traps,
The prison opening, the chain that snaps.

-the Sil/Lay of Leithian

Etc, etc. Song can be used as a way of getting into another person's mind, turning into a battle of wills. Such song can bring back painful memories, or make the listener long for something unattainable. Sauron sings/chants of the Kinslaying and all the evils that the Elves have done, and was able to overcome Felagund. Similarly, the Phantom uses his song to get into Christine's mind. She, a musician, is deeply affected by this and is easily swayed, especially since she thinks that the voice she hears is that of her dead father, or at least that of the "angel of music" he promised to send to her.

Luthien's song is her power. Her song reaches Beren in his prison, and "the isle trembled" at hearing her. Later, she is able to send Morgoth and all his servants into sleep. While Christine does not have an influence like this, the Phantom almost does, in his song's sheer effectiveness and influence over Christine. A major difference here, though, is that the Phantom's song has this great influence over her alone, whereas Luthien's seems to be able to bend anyone to her will.

Music was part of what made Luthien and Christine so attractive. Beren first beheld Luthien singing and dancing, and he fell in love with her right away. Morgoth had a sort of lust for her when she came to him and he heard her sing; he desired to corrupt her purity. In the Phantom movie, Raoul first recognizes Christine on stage as she stars in the opera; he falls in love with her all over again. Christine's ability to "make my [the Phantom's] song take flight" made him love her too.

And (Second question) what are some of the similarities and differences between the two triangles: Raoul, Christine, Phantom; versus Beren, Luthien, Morgoth?

Raoul/Beren's love for Christine/Luthien was much more pure than the feelings the Phantom/Morgoth held for her. In the Phantom/Morgoth's case, it was a very selfish feeling -- although the Phantom did indeed love Christine, and it was not just lust or the desire to corrupt her. His love for her, though, was without regard to anything else; he was willing to kill Raoul so they could be together.

The Phantom and Morgoth were both arrogant -- they had skill and they knew it, and demanded respect from others for it, thinking that they deserved to be treated better. Morgoth fell because of this arrogance, becoming the Black Enemy, and the Phantom killed people or caused disasters to occur at the opera house when his demands were not met.

Can't wait to read others' responses!

[mark12_30]

And (Second question) what are some of the similarities and differences between the two triangles: Raoul, Christine, Phantom; versus Beren, Luthien, Morgoth?

I wonder... Phantom wanted Christine in order that she would help him to make music. She inspired him. He wrote for her. There was a relationship there, albeit (on Phantom's part) a selfish one. And (let's not forget) Phantom trained Christine.

Luthien, on the other hand, wasn't trained by Melkor. I'm not sure there was much inspiration there, in a musical sense, either. And there's no indication that Morgoth wrote any music for her, or would have.

Which (actually) I find odd. Melkor was one of the greatest musicians, wasn't he? He was great enough to "compete" with the rest of the valar and with Eru himself, or so he thought. Yet it seems that he abandoned music after Ea "was"-- did he sing much? You raised the point that Sauron sang against Felagund-- great point, I had forgotten that. Did Melkor do any more singing once the Ainulindale was complete? I have a mental picture of him sort of dropping it and 'moving on' to darkness and dastardly plotting, no music involved. Did Morgoth sing back to Luthien?

In a sort of mirrored similarity, Phantom musically haunts and captivates Christine, and teaches her; whereas Luthien haunts Beren, and he hears Daeron's "music of a pipe unseen", and "music welling underground". In that sense, Beren is the haunted, captivated one, and his haunting is sweet (though full of doom.) Does Luthien "haunt" Morgoth musically?

EDIT: It's been a while since I read Sil, so please correct my faulty memory whenever you like!

[Encaitare]

Did Melkor do any more singing once the Ainulindale was complete? I have a mental picture of him sort of dropping it and 'moving on' to darkness and dastardly plotting, no music involved. Did Morgoth sing back to Luthien?

This sparks an interesting idea... perhaps he used some form of music for evil -- maybe that was part of Morgoth's "slow arts of cruelty" in creating the orcs. Maybe it was the deed "most hateful to Iluvatar" in part because he turned the music that Iluvatar gave the Ainur to such terrible purpose.

[mark12_30]

...which might answer why, in spite of how horrible orcs are, they still sing. Ho ho, my lads. (Stravinsky?? Just kidding.)

When I think back over the Sil, what songs stick in my mind? Luthien's song before Morgoth; Melian's song in Lorien when the brooks stopped flowing to listen; Yavanna's song that germinated the Two Trees. Song is used to entrance, to please, and to create.

In Phantom, the first two apply. But does the third?

[Encaitare]

In Phantom, the first two apply. But does the third?

Am pondering this... it seems that since music is the Phantom's passion, it creates this little world to which he can recede whenever he wants. It also creates love -- but this sense of creation is different than in Middle-earth. In M-e it has tangible results.

Will continue to ponder... hasn't anyone else anything to add? Come on, I know we've got plenty of Phantom Phans around here...

[Elianna]

Of course we're out here, but personally, I haven't read Silm yet. I am much enjoying this conversation though. Please continue.

[Lyta_Underhill]

Did Melkor do any more singing once the Ainulindale was complete? I have a mental picture of him sort of dropping it and 'moving on' to darkness and dastardly plotting, no music involved. Did Morgoth sing back to Luthien?

An interesting topic indeed, and I haven't even seen the new Phantom movie (although I've seen the 1925 original silent with Lon Chaney!). A thought that occurred to me from Helen's quote above was that Morgoth was diminished when he wrought his evil will to a certain extent. He lost his ability to change form and was stuck with one form of being in Middle Earth. Perhaps this is tied to the fading of his 'music,' in a metaphorical if not actual sense. His actual ability to create music as he had was perhaps a casualty of his evil path, and he wishes to renew himself without necessarily changing his ways.

This thread came to mind when I pondered just why Morgoth would covet Luthien: Uhg, a Terrible Thought . Perhaps he wished to tear the essence of her song from her in a way, coveting not only her beauty but her purity and ability to sing a powerful song...

These are incompletely formed thoughts, and I suppose it would help if I saw the new movie, but the theme of covetousness is there in the old one as well (as well as a wondrous full color Masque scene--unusual for 1925!) It has been a little while since my last reading of the Silmarillion as well, so any corrections or clarifications on any point are welcome!

Cheers!
Lyta

P.S. I find it somewhat ironic that the founder of the thread I linked above is none other than the phantom!

[Estelyn Telcontar]

The new "Phantom" movie hasn't been released over here yet, so I can't add anything to that aspect of the discussion. However, the question on Melkor's possible music after his rebellion made me think of one style that would seem appropriate - Death Metal!!

[Evisse the Blue]

This topic puzzles me much...I like everyone's ideas, but for me the similarity between the Beren/Luthien/Morgoth trio and the Raoul/Christine/Phantom trio is only superficial. The relationship between them is totally different. Christine was somewhat attracted to the Phantom, and the Phantom despite being evil, had some kind of appeal. Morgoth on the other hand didn't, and I think no one will contradict me on that. Their motivations, as had been already suggested, were very different. Also Christine wasn't a great musician from the start, she was mediocre and she became great only under the Phantom's influence. It's a relationship of student/master and the Phantom's primal motivation is not to seduce Christine, but to relive past glory through her singing (that is actually induced by him) - I am the mask you wear, it's me they hear). Luthien on the other hand weaves her own magic on Morgoth and thwarts his will to her purpose. She's the greater musician, and being Morgoth's total opposite, defeats him by a device that he once mastered too - singing - only she does it better. The fact that he lusts after her does not affect Luthien one bit - it is probably part of the 'plan', he is unable to carry out his mischief anyway and he is completely under her spell.

How the music is treated in Middle Earth: like an instrument, I think (pardon the pun). It is a means to an end, be it a weapon or a medicine. It heals and destroys but it never takes 'center stage'. While in 'Phantom of the Opera', the music is the means, the cause and the ultimate purpose.

Note: I didn't see the recent movie PoTO. I base my judgements on the original book my Gaston Leroux. (with so many different sources, we're bound to have different opinions )

My favourite instances of musical power in Lord of the Rings are Fingon battling Sauron (the account of that gives me chills down my spine) and Luthien singing to the Valar for Beren (this one reminds me of the story of Orpheus who sang his way to the the Inferno to save Euridyke).

However, the question on Melkor's possible music after his rebellion made me think of one style that would seem appropriate - Death Metal!!

Haha, that's flippant! But true!

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Evisse the Blue

This topic puzzles me much...I like everyone's ideas, but for me the similarity between the Beren/Luthien/Morgoth trio and the Raoul/Christine/Phantom trio is only superficial. The relationship between them is totally different. Christine was somewhat attracted to the Phantom, and the Phantom, despite being evil, had some kind of appeal. Morgoth on the other hand didn't, and I think no one will contradict me on that.

Actually, I would...

Morgoth, at the time of Luthien and Beren, is no longer in the (likely) gorgeous physical form he presented in Valinor, but his form is that of the dark master of Utumno, and although this may not be a beautiful form as such, it was certainly terrible, and probably grand.

A grandly terrible figure.

However, Morgoth's physical form isn't the point I intended to make. While I would agree that there was certainly no attraction for Luthien, as there is/was for Christine, I think you are wrong in saying the Morgoth had no appeal. For the right (or wrong) person, Morgoth's appeal would be immense. And I'm not just talking about orks here.

Morgoth is evil incarnate, the godfather of everything evil. And a great part about evil is its attraction. Evil IS attractive. And Morgoth was also powerful. VERY powerful. At this time, he can be said to be the most powerful being in middle-earth. And the Valar had abandoned that land.

Therefore, it is hardly inconcievable that Morgoth, had he wanted, could have attracted quite a few people. Since this is a Christine/Luthien comparisom, just look at women in general. Is it really that hard to imagine women being attracted to him? Who wouldn't want to be the mistress- maybe even the wife- of the King of Middle-earth? I admit that, like Luthien, many would not, but I think that there are some, even among the Eldar, who would have leapt at such an opportunity, had it been presented.

There you have it: in my opinion, Morgoth was not lacking in attractive attributes (power and evil), it was simply that he didn't deign to tempt any old person with them. In which he is similar once again to the Phantom, who didn't select any old person to be his vehicle of glory. The difference is that where Christine was beguiled, Luthien merely played along for a very short while, while beguiling him.

[mark12_30]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Therefore, it is hardly inconcievable that Morgoth, had he wanted, could have attracted quite a few people. Since this is a Christine/Luthien comparisom, just look at women in general. Is it really that hard to imagine women being attracted to him? Who wouldn't want to be the mistress- maybe even the wife- of the King of Middle-earth? I admit that, like Luthien, many would not, but I think that there are some, even among the Eldar, who would have leapt at such an opportunity, had it been presented.

There you have it: in my opinion, Morgoth was not lacking in attractive attributes (power and evil), it was simply that he didn't deign to tempt any old person with them. In which he is similar once again to the Phantom, who didn't select any old person to be his vehicle of glory. The difference is that where Christine was beguiled, Luthien merely played along for a very short while, while beguiling him.

Looking at it from Morgoth's perspective: why shouldn't Luthien want him? ...the vala who has it all...

Luthien's reaction to Morgoth is admittedly quite different from Christine's reaction to the Phantom-- at first; and at the end; but in the middle-- Christine begins to be horrified "My God, who is this man who hunts to kill?" -- by the side of the Phantom that will allow nothing between him and his desires. While the phantom displays insecurity, and Morgoth does not, I wonder if there was some hidden there. "Uneasy lies the head that wears the crown."

Luthien's disinterest in Morgoth is significant. But just as the Phantom had something Christine wanted (music), Morgoth has something Luthien wants-- that dratted Silmaril.

I was also struck this morning by how much of the two stories take place underground, in a labyrinthine setting: Utumno versus the Paris Opera House...