Gandalf's Staff

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Well, yes, Sauron, is the greatest evil being after the passing of Morgoth, but the Balrog didn't sign a contract to serve Sauron in case of Morgoth's sudden disappearance.

They could perhaps have an alliance of equals, but not Master and Servant.

[Essex]

alatar (and Kuruharan)

If not, how do you reconcile his actions at the Crack (claiming and not actively destroying the Ring) and not having 'failed?'

Ok, let's say it again. (have a search for a post called something like frodo at the sammath naur for one of the many discussions)

Q. What was Frodo and the fellowship's Quest?
A. To destroy the Ring.

Q. Was the Ring destroyed?
A. Yes

Q. Was Frodo tempted to keep the Ring
A. Yes, at the very last moment he could not throw the Ring in the fire.

Q. Does it matter that Frodo himself did not throw the Ring in the fire?
A. No.

Q. Was it Redemption for his kindness towards Gollum that helped him complete the Quest?
A. Yes

This is the WHOLE POINT of the story. Middle-earth's Redemption because of one small hobbits kind and noble actions towards a creature who in some circumstances deserved a lot worse.

If Frodo had had Gollum killed, then he would have Failed, as Sauron would have no doubt won his Ring back. But because of his wisdom and kindness, the whole of Middle-earth was saved and the Quest was a success.

Let me hammer the point home again. Did the Quest succeed? The answer is a certain YES. Was Frodo tempted at the Sammath Naur? Of course, but through his actions the Ring was destroyed.

Victory to Frodo.

[HerenIstarion]

Trousers, eh? It’s damn long tentacles this thread had grown!

Does it matter that Frodo himself did not throw the Ring in the fire

Depends on ‘matter’ what for?

For the quest, it indeed does not matter – the Ring got destroyed, and that is what matters (immediately matters). And your evaluation of Gollum’s role in for it is quite correct. For the symbol of humanity Tolkien (consciously so in the revision) was drawing, it does.

There were (and in extreme cases there still are) two concepts in Christian belief concerning salvation:

1. Only God and His guiding action is what matters. Whatever you do, whatever think, whatever you feel, you won’t be saved unless He saves you.
2. Your actions is what matters. You think right and you do right – He accepts you.

Now, Frodo (and, up to an extent, the complex of Frodo/Sam/Gollum together) may be viewed as symbol of humankind. The passage of Sammath Naur in this respect is kind of reconciliation of those two views, treatment of situation hinting at that both are true simultaneously, and could not be approached separetaly. So, Only God can save you, whatever you do, as He only is Perfect and can humble Himself perfectly, reject all Evil perfectly, drop the Ring into the Crack perfectly. No mere human can do that, but mere (dangerous word, mere) human should not sit and wait for the occurrence to take place, s/he has to act, even knowing the end unattainable without Divine help

I’m apt at analogies rather than wordplay, so consider the following:

Man is drowning in the see, praying for God to save him. He deliberately lets the floating piece of shipwreck go by insted of clinging onto, strenghtening in his faith that his prayer would see him safe to the shore rather than some piece of wood. Inevitably, he dies, and goes to Heaven. There he meets the Lord, and asks: Lord, did not you hear my prayer for safety when I was drowning? But an answer he gets is: I’ve sent you a piece of board, but you haven’t taken it.

The moral (there is always a moral, as Duchess very well knows) being selfsame – one can nor rely on one thesis only, both are at operation at the same time

So, most Frodo was able of doing is to bring the Ring to the mountain. He was destined to fail in respect it was impossible for him to let the Ring go. But as it was impossible at the outset, he did not fail at the same time – he did most of what he was able of doing. The rest was Chance (read – Divine help)

see more:

Forever?
CbC B01 Ch2
Evil
CbC B02 Ch10


Also, Tolkien’s Letter 181 to Michael Straight:

'Lead us not into temptation &c' is the harder and the less often considered petition. The view, in the terms of my story, is that though every event or situation has (at least) two aspects: the history and development of the individual (it is something out of which he can get good, ultimate good, for himself, or fail to do so), and the history of the world (which depends on his action for its own sake) – still there are abnormal situations in which one may be placed. 'Sacrificial' situations, I should call them: sc. positions in which the 'good' of the world depends on the behaviour of an individual in circumstances which demand of him suffering and endurance far beyond the normal – even, it may happen (or seem, humanly speaking), demand a strength of body and mind which he does not possess: he is in a sense doomed to failure, doomed to fall to temptation or be broken by pressure against his 'will': that is against any choice he could make or would make unfettered, not under the duress.
Frodo was in such a position: an apparently complete trap: a person of greater native power could probably never have resisted the Ring's lure to power so long; a person of less power could not hope to resist it in the final decision. (Already Frodo had been unwilling to harm the Ring before he set out, and was incapable of surrendering it to Sam.)

The Quest was bound to fail as a piece of world-plan, and also was bound to end in disaster as the story of humble Frodo's development to the 'noble', his sanctification. Fail it would and did as far as Frodo considered alone was concerned. He 'apostatized' – and I have had one savage letter, crying out that he shd. have been executed as a traitor, not honoured. Believe me, it was not until I read this that I had myself any idea how 'topical' such a situation might appear. It arose naturally from my 'plot' conceived in main outline in 1936.1 I did not foresee that before the tale was published we should enter a dark age in which the technique of torture and disruption of personality would rival that of Mordor and the Ring and present us with the practical problem of honest men of good will broken down into apostates and traitors.
But at this point the 'salvation' of the world and Frodo's own 'salvation' is achieved by his previous pity and forgiveness of injury. At any point any prudent person would have told Frodo that Gollum would certainly betray him, and could rob him in the end. To 'pity' him, to forbear to kill him, was a piece of folly, or a mystical belief in the ultimate value-in-itself of pity and generosity even if disastrous in the world of time. He did rob him and injure him in the end – but by a 'grace', that last betrayal was at a precise juncture when the final evil deed was the most beneficial thing any one cd. have done for Frodo! By a situation created by his 'forgiveness', he was saved himself, and relieved of his burden. He was very justly accorded the highest honours – since it is clear that he & Sam never concealed the precise course of events.

'Not quite 'certainly'. The clumsiness in fidelity of Sam was what finally pushed Gollum over the brink, when about to repent.

[alatar]

Essex, I tend to agree with HerenIstarion.

No small feat did Frodo accomplish, and no one else in ME could have done it, so hats off to him. However, at the end, he did give in to temptation and 'fall.' I think that what you are trying to say is that when Frodo spared/saved Gollum (multiple times), this action bought him a 'pass' on not committing the final act himself (Not sure exactly what you mean by redemption; sorry).

I understand that in some sense; had Frodo not pitied Gollum then the West would have lost. Frodo's acts of 'forgiveness' allow him to be 'forgiven' when he succumbs to temptation, and this might hold with Tolkien's Christianity.

In the same vein, I think that it took an act of God at the end, for even Frodo (as stated) was not perfect and required grace (Ephesians 2:8-9). Frodo may have stopped Faramir's arrows, but he did not make the orc arrow shoot wide of the mark, nor did he help Gollum cross the Gorgoroth.

[Essex]

Heren, well written reply.

Alatar,

I tend to agree with HerenIstarion.

so do I, mostly. I don't think our two posts are mutually exlusive. As Heren says:

So, most Frodo was able of doing is to bring the Ring to the mountain. He was destined to fail in respect it was impossible for him to let the Ring go. But as it was impossible at the outset, he did not fail at the same time – he did most of what he was able of doing.

If you think that Frodo failed because he did not throw the Ring into the fire himself, then I can't change yours or anyone elses mind. I just believe IT DOES NOT MATTER who threw the Ring in. Does anyone command Frodo ALONE to throw the Ring in the fire? No, I don't believe so, it was the role of the Quest to do so, but (and maybe I'm reading Elrond wrong) they didn't say that Frodo alone would have to throw the ring in. That's why he had 8 people helping him! (plus a few more along the way......)

Frodo saved Middle-earth. Yeah, what a failure!

As I said, I can't argue anymore on Frodo failing if people are saying this becuase he did not throw the Ring in. I've said my piece and do not agree on this.

Reading Tolkien's letter, I think he is saying that Frodo saw himself as a failure. This makes his leaving Middle-earth even more of a bind to me. That he left partly because he felt he let everyone down makes it an even sadder ending than it has been to me before. Poor Frodo.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Essex

As I said, I can't argue anymore on Frodo failing if people are saying this becuase he did not throw the Ring in. I've said my piece and do not agree on this.

Reading Tolkien's letter, I think he is saying that Frodo saw himself as a failure. This makes his leaving Middle-earth even more of a bind to me. That he left partly because he felt he let everyone down makes it an even sadder ending than it has been to me before. Poor Frodo.

I'm with you. It's a semantic thing, methinks. You would say that Frodo did not fail and I would say that Frodo's quest did not fail. Technically, Frodo finally fell to the temptation of the Ring at the very last - but that's okay - and a nudge due to his actions/spirit etc helped him get the job done.