Gollum...

[pippin_took0]

OK, in the book (and the film), Gollum started following them in Moria, then continued following them to Lothlorien and onwards.
BUT

How did he get across the bridge of Khazad-dum?

This has been bugging me for ages - any ideas?

[Nufaciel]

There really is no way of telling, but remember when Frodo and Sam reach the bottom of the cliffs near the Dead Marshes, and they look up to see Gollum clinging to the side of the cliff like a spider? I would think probably the same way here, but who knows. Any other thoughts on how this may have occurred?

[pippin_took0]

Well I can understand that about him being able to climb up/down cliffs, but leaping across a 50-foot chasm? I don't think so, somehow...

[Lyliac]

perhaps he was already on the other side, and started following them there.

[firncristwen]

Yes, he was probably already on the other side and they didn't notice. Remember that Sméagol was incredibly slinky.
For an excellent LotR fan group click here

[ainur]

Remember that Frodo started hearing "footpads" within a few hours after entering Moria if I recall correctly, which would have been Gollum following. He had probably been lurking in Moria for some time, possibly coming there with the same Orcs that helped him escape from the Elves of Mirkwood (Just a theory). At any rate, he would have been there perhaps several months at that point. How did he cross the bridge? I suspect his familiarity after those months allowed him to find other ways to escape from Moria besides the East Gate. Possibly a ventilation shaft or other opening. Certainly once he sensed the presence of the ring, he would have found a way to follow it.

[Gorin Icearms]

Good question. I agree with Ainur, Gollum was probably following them from the first day in Moria. It's highly probable the orcs didn't know he was there, (remember Pippin and the well?) so he could've found another way across in the time he was waiting.

[VanimaEdhel]

Guys: there had to be some other something on either side, because wasn't it inside? Maybe Gollum climbed over on a wall...he could climb really well, remember? So maybe there was just enough footing on a wall so that he could climb up, across some area of wall the spanned the pit, then back down to follow them. Remember, he climbed down the cliff with Frodo and Sam, so maybe he could climb across too.

[Elenglin]

There really was some other ways to get out of Moria; remember, in the book and in the movie, there was a hole on the roof upon Balin's grave. Eg.

[Kalimac]

Can't see Gollum hanging out with the Orcs in Moria, especially after what happened to him in Mordor (and the fact the Orcs who have been living in empty mines for a long time are not likely to be too picky about potential food). He probably slunk out some other way that was impassable to the Fellowship - probably hid in a corner until the fight was over, then found a chink somewhere and slithered out and followed them to Lorien. He might have raced ahead of them and gotten across the bridge before they ever arrived there, but that just doesn't seem like his style to put himself in front instead of behind...

[Mirkgirl]

Gollum had no problems to find his way in dark labyrinths, and was able to go through places the others can't... he'd surely find a way out

And I doubt he had any close relationships with the orcs, they probably didn't even know he was there.

Gollum started following Frodo befor Moria. Gollum is noted, but not yet named, when Frodo and gang are crossing the Brandywine river. Turn to Chapter 5 in FotR, in the 8th paragraph, Sam tells Frodo to look back... "On the far stage, under the distant lamps, they could just make out a figure: it looked like a dark black bundle left behind. But as they looked it seemed to move and sway this way and that, as if searching the ground. It then crawled, or went crouching, back into the gloom beyond the lamps."
We don't know it's Gollum until Moria. I assume he got either through Moria using his sticky fingers and clingy limbs as he scaled up and down mountains and hills further in the journey. Gollum was capabale of much more then we think as the reader. I suspect Tolkien created Gollum with features that would enable Gollum to follow Frodo through everything and anything. Besides, the power of the ring over Gollum and his desire to have it again was a significant symbolism to the story, as much as the struggles the other characters have to overcome and deal with.

[Gorin Icearms]

I thought that was a Ringwraith? It could've been Gollum I suppose, but it seems more likely to be a Ringwraith. The way it's written I doubt it was Gollum though. Because Aragorn says later

So you know about our little footpad, do you? He padded after us all through Moria and right down to Nimrodel.

If Gollum was following them from the beginning, wouldn't Aragorn have known? He's the chief of the Rangers after all. And how would Gollum get into Moria (remember the gates got smashed) if he was following them? He had to be waiting for them inside somewhere.

[ March 27, 2002: Message edited by: Gorin Icearms ]

[ainur]

I suppose that could have been Gollum, though I always assumed it was one of the Black Riders just moments too late to catch them. Unlike the Nazgul, Gollum had no fear of the water, and would likely have slipped into the Brandywine after them whereas the Black Riders would have had to make their way to the Brandywine Bridge to get across. And if you're wondering about the Rider's horse, I figured it was left at the top of the riverbank to wait while the Nazgul sniffed out the path. Besides, that summer when Gollum escaped from the elves of Mirkwood, they followed his trail south towards Dol Guldur, not west towards the Shire. I think he followed the Orcs to the outskirts of Dol Guldur to get away from the elves, then headed west as far as Moria. I don't think he made it as far as the Shire, though he probably intended to.

I guess it could have been a Nazgul but the way Tolkien describes it as a "black Bundle" and "crouching to the ground, swaying this way and that", It just resembles Gollum, to me, more then the way the Nazgul behave. Maybe Gollum did follow them in the water or he went around. I don't think Gollum was able to travel through the water as deep as the Brandywine and there wasn't another ferry boat. Gollum even used a boat in his cave back when Bilbo found the ring. He was not afraid of the water but I think he was still capable of drowning. Anyway, I guess the "black bundle" could be Gollum or a Nazgul, or whatever the reader decides to accept it as.

[Gorin Icearms]

I just thought of something that proves (at least in my mind [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]) why it couldn't have been Gollum. I have little doubt Gollum didn't fear Moria (he was tortured in Barad-dur, remember?) so a bunch of orcs probably didn't scare him. (Yes there was a Balrog but he didn't know that. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img])

1. The Doors of Durin. There's not much chance that Gollum knew any Elvish so he wouldn't have been able to open the door (which was smashed anyway).

2. Frodo hears the footsteps on the first day in Moria. If Gollum had been following since the ferry someone would have seen/heard him.

3. If it had been Gollum, the Elves in Imladris would've caught him sneaking around. If he went ahead how would he know where they were going?

I could go on but I'm tired. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] I didn't get much sleep last night.

(And if I sounded terse, sorry, I didn't mean to. [img]smilies/redface.gif[/img])

[avarerniliel]

I doubt Gollum was with the Orcs. He hates Orcs, they torchered him and did other bad stuff to him to cause him pain.(Plus Gollum liked to eat their cousins, the goblins.) Gollum is no newbie to dark, shadowy, dangerous, labrynths. He lived in the Misty Mountains for quite some time, then was dragged to Mirkwood, and now shows up in Moria. He's an expert on these places and you know it. Moria is a huge place, there have to be other openings in it besides the bridge of Khazad Dum. And even if there wasn't, was the bridge completely collapsed? If it wasn't couldn't Gollum just simply hop onto the part that wasn't collapsed and go from there? Well, ponder it. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Jessica Jade]

Turn to Chapter 5 in FotR, in the 8th paragraph, Sam tells Frodo to look back... "On the far stage, under the distant lamps, they could just make out a figure: it looked like a dark black bundle left behind. But as they looked it seemed to move and sway this way and that, as if searching the ground. It then crawled, or went crouching, back into the gloom beyond the lamps."
We don't know it's Gollum until Moria.

I was always positive that that was a Ringwraith. At that point in the book, the four hobbits were fleeing from the pursuit of the Black Riders. Also, as someone said before, someone would have seen/heard Gollum if he'd been following them already. As for Rivendell, Gollum would have been very afraid to enter there, because he is terrified of elves. ("Fierce elves with bright eyes," as he says to Sam and Frodo in Emyn Muil.) IF he had been following them already, he'd have waited til they got out of Rivendell and picked up their trail again later, but its unlikely he would have waited outside Rivendell for months while the fellowship was formed and the decision to destry the ring in Morder was made. SInce he lusted for the ring so much, he'd have probably tried to go into Rivendell to seek it, and in that case he would've been caught/seen by an elf.

I think that he didn't meet the Fellowship until he discovered that they were passing through Moria. My theory is that he had been there already, for months, and when they entered, he followed because he felt the presence of the Ring. I agree that Orcs helped him escape because Sauron thought that Gollum would reveal where the Ring was hidden if he sucessfully found it. Maybe he followed the Orcs to Moria, but he probably tried to hide from them because he hated and feared them. They probably didn't know he was there, or, if they did, they wouldnt' capture him, because 1) he probably isn't very good to eat since he's so skinny and 2)Sauron probably didnt' want him killed since he (sauron) believed that Gollum might be a means to finding the Ring.

As for him escaping Moria, well, it'd be much easier for him, knowing his agility, size, and unnatural strengths. He IS and expert at caves, and shadowy dark places, so he would have known that labryinth of Moria far better than anyone could have. There was surely more ways to exit Moria other than over the Bride of Khazad Dum.

[ March 29, 2002: Message edited by: Jessica Jade ]

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

Gollum knew all the ins and outs of Moria under the Misty Mountains. Knew them better than any orc, or any throughout the caverns, save perhaps the Balrog.

He lived there 500 years. Sometimes we forget where Gollum lived, because Bilbo's experience of the Goblin king's realm in no way matches Moria. Probably a mines section rather than the Dwarf kingdom itself. Further north.

As far as the black bundle at the Ferry, I seriously doubt that was Gollum. The black rider hunched in exactly that way when he/it got off the horse closer to Hobbiton. Gollum could not have followed them through the old forest, and would have been spotted by the Elves, not to mention Aragorn and Gandalf, in Linden, the nearly empty lands between Moria and Rivendell. No. Gollum may have been sent to the Shire perhaps, in the hope his connection to the ring would helf the dark lord find it, but he lucked into them in Moria.

[ April 01, 2002: Message edited by: Marileangorifurnimaluim ]