Ar-Pharazon sleeps? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

the witch king · 12-02-2002, 11:51 AM

Ok im not shure where i read this or if i was tripin or what but is Ar-Pharazon and the other Numenorreans who landed in the undieing lands sleeping untill the end of the world when the valar are unthrowned or something

Inderjit Sanghera · 12-02-2002, 01:37 PM

Yeah, they will be freed on the day of judjement, the 'Dagor Dagorath (Last Battle). Possibly to decide which side to fight ondown . (Good or bad)

the witch king · 12-02-2002, 02:21 PM

so where would i have read this?

Lindolirian · 12-02-2002, 02:29 PM

In the Silmarillion, in the Akallabeth:

Quote:

But Ar-Pharazôn the King and the mortal warriors that had set foot upon the land of Aman were buried under falling hills; there it is said that they lie imprisoned in the Caves of the Forgotten, until the Last Battle and the Day of Doom.

burrahobbit · 12-02-2002, 04:04 PM

That isn't the same thing as sleeping, cf the Dead Men.

Selmo · 12-03-2002, 03:37 AM

It's not an original idea.
Every Briton knows that King Arthur lies sleeping, ready to awaken and lead his beloved land in the hour of its greatest need.

Gwaihir the Windlord · 12-03-2002, 05:02 AM

True, my friend.

Burra, the Dead Men of Dunharrow weren't sleeping. They were dead. Dead, burra. They weren't going to wake up. Unless you count their unquiet spirits...

the witch king · 12-03-2002, 05:11 AM

yes but this great kings land is sunk under the sea so will he come back to fight for the foces of evil?

Selmo · 12-03-2002, 05:27 AM

The Numenorians were basicaly Good People.
I believe that most of them, having seen the result of their folly in the Great Armament, would choose to fight on the right side in the Last Battle.

Perhaps a few, including Ar-Pharazon himself, were too far gone in pride to repent and would take up arms for Morgoth.

Inderjit Sanghera · 12-03-2002, 06:27 AM

I think he will opt for the good side, as he has problaby repented of his deeds by now.

Inderjit Sanghera · 12-03-2002, 06:29 AM

Hey, Selmo are you from Staffordshire? I live a few miles a way from there.

the witch king · 12-03-2002, 02:33 PM

i think he'l take any side as long as he gets a chance to kick saurons *** for crossing him!

Angry Hill Troll · 12-03-2002, 03:40 PM

Quote:

That isn't the same thing as sleeping, cf the Dead Men.

I'm not sure we know what it is. Two possibilities:

1) Since the Akallabeth was the result of Eru's direct intervention, he certainly could have revoked the Gift of Men to Ar-Pharazon and his followers, causing them to exist in their physical bodies, in some sort of suspended animation?, until the End.

Or maybe their bodies were destroyed and their Fëa imprisoned in a sort of Mandos until they will be re-embodied at the time of the Dagor Dagorath. They did want to be like the Elves, didn't they? Be careful what you wish for...

Of course, both possibilities above are only speculations.

Since the Akallabeth is a unique example of Eru taking matters into his own hands, it is somewhat different than the Dead Men, whose Fëa were prevented from leaving until they had made good on their promise to Isildur. Presumably this was done by one of the Valar at Isuldur´s behest.

Whose side will the Numenoreans fight on in the last battle? Based on the behavior of Men in Tolkien's writing (and in real life!), I would expect some to do the Right Thing...and others--perhaps most--to do the Wrong Thing.

Inderjit Sanghera · 12-04-2002, 01:31 PM

Though Ar-Pharazon COULD turn to Melkor's side. I mean wouldn't you , if you had to be locked up in a mass of rocks, without A Nightcap or even a fluffy pillow. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] Shocking behaviour from Eru.

Selmo · 12-05-2002, 04:02 AM

Hello Inderjit.

I'm from Newcastle in North Staffodshire.
I still think of Woverhampton (and the Black Country) as part of Staffordshire, as it was before the boundaries were changed in the 1970s.

Welcome and well-met, nieghbour.

12-02-2002, 11:51 AM	#1
the witch king Wight Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Minas Morgul, Morgul Vale, Mordor Posts: 201	Ar-Pharazon sleeps? Ok im not shure where i read this or if i was tripin or what but is Ar-Pharazon and the other Numenorreans who landed in the undieing lands sleeping untill the end of the world when the valar are unthrowned or something __________________ 'Whenever death may surprise us, let it be welcome if our battle cry has reached even one receptive ear and another hand reaches out to take up our arms.'~ Che Guevara.

12-02-2002, 01:37 PM	#2
Inderjit Sanghera Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Wolverhampton, England Posts: 716	Yeah, they will be freed on the day of judjement, the 'Dagor Dagorath (Last Battle). Possibly to decide which side to fight ondown . (Good or bad) __________________ “If I’m more of an influence on your son as a rapper then you are as a father then you've got to look at yourself as a parent” ~>Ice Cube. "Life is so beautiful"->Don Vito Corleone

12-02-2002, 02:21 PM	#3
the witch king Wight Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Minas Morgul, Morgul Vale, Mordor Posts: 201	so where would i have read this? __________________ 'Whenever death may surprise us, let it be welcome if our battle cry has reached even one receptive ear and another hand reaches out to take up our arms.'~ Che Guevara.

12-02-2002, 04:04 PM	#5
burrahobbit Hidden Spirit Join Date: May 2000 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,424	That isn't the same thing as sleeping, cf the Dead Men. __________________ What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?

12-03-2002, 05:11 AM	#8
the witch king Wight Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Minas Morgul, Morgul Vale, Mordor Posts: 201	yes but this great kings land is sunk under the sea so will he come back to fight for the foces of evil? __________________ 'Whenever death may surprise us, let it be welcome if our battle cry has reached even one receptive ear and another hand reaches out to take up our arms.'~ Che Guevara.

12-03-2002, 03:37 AM	#6
Selmo Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: The Shire (Staffordshire), United Kingdom Posts: 273	It's not an original idea. Every Briton knows that King Arthur lies sleeping, ready to awaken and lead his beloved land in the hour of its greatest need.

12-03-2002, 05:02 AM	#7
Gwaihir the Windlord Essence of Darkness Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Evermore Posts: 1,420	True, my friend. Burra, the Dead Men of Dunharrow weren't sleeping. They were dead. Dead, burra. They weren't going to wake up. Unless you count their unquiet spirits...

12-03-2002, 05:27 AM	#9
Selmo Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: The Shire (Staffordshire), United Kingdom Posts: 273	The Numenorians were basicaly Good People. I believe that most of them, having seen the result of their folly in the Great Armament, would choose to fight on the right side in the Last Battle. Perhaps a few, including Ar-Pharazon himself, were too far gone in pride to repent and would take up arms for Morgoth.

12-03-2002, 06:27 AM	#10
Inderjit Sanghera Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Wolverhampton, England Posts: 716	I think he will opt for the good side, as he has problaby repented of his deeds by now. __________________ “If I’m more of an influence on your son as a rapper then you are as a father then you've got to look at yourself as a parent” ~>Ice Cube. "Life is so beautiful"->Don Vito Corleone

12-03-2002, 06:29 AM	#11
Inderjit Sanghera Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Wolverhampton, England Posts: 716	Hey, Selmo are you from Staffordshire? I live a few miles a way from there. __________________ “If I’m more of an influence on your son as a rapper then you are as a father then you've got to look at yourself as a parent” ~>Ice Cube. "Life is so beautiful"->Don Vito Corleone

12-03-2002, 02:33 PM	#12
the witch king Wight Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Minas Morgul, Morgul Vale, Mordor Posts: 201	i think he'l take any side as long as he gets a chance to kick saurons *** for crossing him! __________________ 'Whenever death may surprise us, let it be welcome if our battle cry has reached even one receptive ear and another hand reaches out to take up our arms.'~ Che Guevara.

12-04-2002, 01:31 PM	#14
Inderjit Sanghera Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Wolverhampton, England Posts: 716	Though Ar-Pharazon COULD turn to Melkor's side. I mean wouldn't you , if you had to be locked up in a mass of rocks, without A Nightcap or even a fluffy pillow. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] Shocking behaviour from Eru. __________________ “If I’m more of an influence on your son as a rapper then you are as a father then you've got to look at yourself as a parent” ~>Ice Cube. "Life is so beautiful"->Don Vito Corleone

12-05-2002, 04:02 AM	#15
Selmo Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: The Shire (Staffordshire), United Kingdom Posts: 273	Hello Inderjit. I'm from Newcastle in North Staffodshire. I still think of Woverhampton (and the Black Country) as part of Staffordshire, as it was before the boundaries were changed in the 1970s. Welcome and well-met, nieghbour.