Wormtonge’s manipulation

[The Evenstar]

Wormtongue manipulates King Théoden all the time. But Eomer, Eowyn and all the King’s people do nothing to stop Wormtongue, except for Gandalf, who comes to their rescue. Perhaps they are too afraid to stop him or perhaps the occupation of Saruman in the King’s mind is too powerful?
Please reply and make this a worthwhile discussion. (smiley face)

[MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie]

They knew that Wormtongue was up to no good and that his advice to Theoden was ill. But what could they do? It is up to the king (Theoden) as to whether Wormtongue has committed a crime or not. And besides, Eomer defied the orders and he was expelled. Gandalf was the only one who could really open Theoden's eyes to what was going on.

[The Evenstar]

Thanks for your reply.

[Carlas]

Yes, Im sure when he first came, they did not trust him, but they did not really have any proof. When they realised what exactly he was doing, it was too late.

[mark12_30]

I think Grima is originally from Rohan. I don't think he's a foreigner. I think he had been Theoden's adviser all along, or at least he must have worked within the king's court somewhere. That's how he met Eowyn and fell for her. Once Saruman learned what Grima wanted, it was easy for him to bring Grima into his service: a simple deal: Give me Edoras and I'll give you Eowyn.

Notice Eomer (or Gandalf, in the book?) asks him, "How long since Saruman bought you?" He was not always in Saruman's service. By offering Eowyn to Grima, Saruman slowly and steadily earned more of Grima's "loyalty" every time Eowyn walked by.

I think that's why Wormtongue's tear when he sees Saruman's army is so effective. He didn't think Rohan would be destroyed-- just subjugated. He begins to realize what a monster Saruman really is-- and what he has helped to set in motion that cannot, now, be undone.

[One Axe to Rule them All]

I agree with the last post, Srima was, in the end, the one who kills Sarauman

He was tempted into an act that, if he had seen the consequences, would have never done.
But then again...

the question is, was grima really evil to the core? or was he seduced, so to speak?

[lathspell]

Yes, I also think Grima was originally from Rohan, and in the beginning he derved King Theoden justly (and I believe Gandalf says something like this in 'the King of the Golden Hall')!
Saruman bought him, by offering him to rule Rohan for Saruman, with Eowyn. People did not dare interfere for Theoden still was their King and Grima was cunning. It takes courage to stand up against your King. And when Eomer at last did so, Grima had him thrown in the dungeons in the name of King. Saruman was in control of Rohan, until Gandalf came and released Theoden from Grima, and Saruman.

[Noxomanus]

I think he was just seduced,poor fellow.Saruman abused his emotional weakness.

[One Axe to Rule them All]

Good point, but the question is foggy considering the fact that they didn't tell us of his earlier days.

He could have very well been an evil person from the start. and sauran's offer was only his "Golden opportunity", his chance to really shine, the fact that he killed sauraman could have been resentment, evil and evil rarely get along, they just coexist, the more powerful taking control by force.

[Scott]

I think that in no way did Grima see the full scope of what he had done until it was too late. He was just a love-struck ugly geek who wanted the upper hand in life for once.

Notice what happened at the end of the Scouring of the Shire. We find that Grima is as sickened by Saruman as everybody else and turns on him.

Also notice the scene in The Two Towers where Grima inquires about the army Saruman has the camers pans out to show the legions of Isengard. If you look closely, you can see a tear falling from Grima's eye and the fear creeping into his heart. His expressions read, "Oh my God. What have I done?" like a picture book. Of course this is just the director's and actor's interpretations of Grima, but they've been pretty accurate thus far.

~Scott

[Silmarien]

here's a quote from 'The King of the Golden Hall'

To slay it(Grima) would be just. But it was not always as it now is. Once it was a man, and did you service in it's fashion.

He also was corrupted by Saruman. But how much corruption was needed is not said. Gandalf has also said this just before

How long since Saruman bought you? What was the promised price? When all the men were dead, you were to pick your share of the treasure, and take the woman you desire?

This seems to imply that he knew there was going to be killing and lots of it. But, as in the movie it's wipe them out, rather than, kill the men, leave the women and treasure as reward to Sarumans "faithful".