Boldogs, Gothmogs and Sauron's New Clothes

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Neithan

Yes, but this rather misses the point. He was pointing out the relative differences of power and rank between the Umaiar. Therefore let us say that the 2nd ranking is split up into two or three sub-rankings with Sauron at the top and lesser servents such as Boldogs at the bottom.

Since Sauron gets his own ranking, we might as well make a separate ranking for each individual Umaia, since all Maiar (and thus all Balrogs) were not created equal.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by obloquy

Since Sauron gets his own ranking, we might as well make a separate ranking for each individual Umaia, since all Maiar (and thus all Balrogs) were not created equal.

The idea of ranking wasn't so much intended to be a formal division of the Umaiar, but rather a way of marking off exactly what sort of Umaiar I was thinking of in terms of power when I refered to them as Boldogs. I wanted to make it clear that I was talking about the Umaiar on the bottom of the ladders, ones that were NOT Balrogs or Saurons in terms of their power. It was a mistake on my part to subdivide the Balrogs and Sauron perhaps, but it seemed at the time to be permissible, since in my mind Sauron is about as much greater than the average Balrog as the average Balrog is over the average Boldog.

The only formal categories, I agree, that need be are Melkor/Morgoth and the Umaiar. The Vala gone bad, and the Maiar gone bad.

However, you have to admit that there are differences in power between the various Maiar. Sauron is (or was, rather) obviously a Maia of rather incredible power. I should have said that he was in a rather select category, one inhabited by Eonwe, Ilmare, Osse, Uinen, and maybe Melian as well. These are the Ainur who were very powerful and influential, obviously above their peers in terms of influence and might, but none of whom is a Vala.

If I were to go hunting for "good" equivalents of the Balrog class, I should put the Istari here. True, it is said that Gandalf and Saruman were Sauron's peers, but to be peers is not necessarily to be equals. Admittedly, there is some variation within the class, as always. Saruman (and Gandalf reborn) was probably at the top of scale, the 'good' opposite (in his earlier life) of Gothmog. You could also put Melian in this category (as I would) if you feel that she doesn't really merit the "Great Maiar" category.

There aren't really any named equivalents of the Boldogs, but I'm sure that they exist. Most of the "hosts" of Valinor would likely be less powerful rather than more. These would be the spirits that have nothing better to do than sing in halls of Manwe or dance on the lawns of Vana.

CORRECTION: I just thought of some good equivalents of the Boldogs: the Eagles and Huan, assuming that you agree with the assumption/theory that they were Maiar.

Anyway, I suppose that I'm just entrenching my association with this "categorising" all the more deeply, but the intent of this post was originally to clarify my original intent. The rest of it just grew out of related thoughts I had on the subject.

[Neithan]

There aren't really any named equivalents of the Boldogs, but I'm sure that they exist.

I would say that there is probably an order that is of even less power than the Boldogs, hence the quote, "only less formidable than the Balrogs". I would take this to mean that the rest of the Umaiar in Morgoth's service are lesser than the Boldogs.

[obloquy]

I would say that there is probably an order that is of even less power than the Boldogs, hence the quote, "only less formidable than the Balrogs". I would take this to mean that the rest of the Umaiar in Morgoth's service are lesser than the Boldogs.

I don't see how that assertion follows from the quote. Please elaborate.

Formendacil: Understood. I won't harass you on the grounds of your rankings any more. However...

the Eagles and Huan, assuming that you agree with the assumption/theory that they were Maiar

It seems that Tolkien's latest feelings on the matter is that they are not Maiar. There's still the question of whether one chooses to accept as canon the late writings as presented by C. Tolkien.

I should have said that he was in a rather select category, one inhabited by Eonwe, Ilmare, Osse, Uinen, and maybe Melian as well. These are the Ainur who were very powerful and influential, obviously above their peers in terms of influence and might, but none of whom is a Vala.

And Olorin.

since in my mind Sauron is about as much greater than the average Balrog as the average Balrog is over the average Boldog.

In your mind, maybe, but it is not necessarily so. The level of power may have varied greatly even within each class of Umaiar. Furthermore, Balrogs were not made Balrogs because they couldn't live up to Sauronhood; they were Balrogs because they were Maiar of fire. They were a distinguished class of Morgoth's servants that were presumably as individual as the Istari.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by obloquy

I don't see how that assertion follows from the quote. Please elaborate.

Formendacil: Understood. I won't harass you on the grounds of your rankings any more. However...

It seems that Tolkien's latest feelings on the matter is that they [the Eagles and Huan] are not Maiar. There's still the question of whether one chooses to accept as canon the late writings as presented by C. Tolkien.

Hence my use of the term, "if".

Originally Posted by obloquy

In your mind, maybe, but it is not necessarily so. The level of power may have varied greatly even within each class of Umaiar. Furthermore, Balrogs were not made Balrogs because they couldn't live up to Sauronhood; they were Balrogs because they were Maiar of fire. They were a distinguished class of Morgoth's servants that were presumably as individual as the Istari.

More or less agreed to. But you will admit, surely, that Sauron seems to have been a Mair (or Umaia, rather) of exceptional power. He is, after all, Morgoth's lieutenant, given command of the fortress of Angband in the times before Melkor's captivity. And he is given a much greater level of independence in the command of Melkor's forces. For instance, he is credited by Tolkien as having rebuilt Melkor's armies while he was captive in Valinor. Sauron, while powerful, was no Vala or former Vala as Melkor was, hence his position as Melkor's deputy must have been quite strongly acknowledged, and there must have been no one who was really considered a contender.

I would also dispute the level of power that you put the Boldogs on, since it relies on the interpretation of the semantics of a single sentence, but since there is so little to be known about Boldogs in the first place, I will not try to impose my views on anyone, but will remain to content to hold them for myself, barring further revelations.

[obloquy]

More or less agreed to. But you will admit, surely, that Sauron seems to have been a Mair (or Umaia, rather) of exceptional power.

Admitted and agreed.

I would also dispute the level of power that you put the Boldogs on, since it relies on the interpretation of the semantics of a single sentence

I'm not sure I know what you mean. I don't recall making any statement as to the power level of a Boldog.

[Neithan]

I don't see how that assertion follows from the quote. Please elaborate.

I admit that I may be reading too much into this, and that it is speculative to say the least. But it seemed to me that he would not have gone to the trouble to say that they were "only less formidable than the Balrogs" if there were no Umaiar less than them. He could have been saying that they were greater than the lesser servants such as Orcs and Trolls but that seems obvious. I assumed (perhaps wrongly) that he was talking within the context of Umaiar. Whatever, it was just a passing thought anyway.

[obloquy]

Ok, I see what you're getting at. I disagree with your reading, but it's not a big issue.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Neithan

I admit that I may be reading too much into this, and that it is speculative to say the least. But it seemed to me that he would not have gone to the trouble to say that they were "only less formidable than the Balrogs" if there were no Umaiar less than them. He could have been saying that they were greater than the lesser servants such as Orcs and Trolls but that seems obvious. I assumed (perhaps wrongly) that he was talking within the context of Umaiar. Whatever, it was just a passing thought anyway.

Thanks Neithan, that's more or less what I was saying. My mind isn't made up on the subject, but I DO lean more in this direction than the other way, but, as obloquy says:

Originally Posted by obloquy

Ok, I see what you're getting at. I disagree with your reading, but it's not a big issue.

It's not a big matter.

Unlike Balrog wings...