Galadriel’s mirror

[The Evenstar]

Is Galadriel’s mirror supposed to tell the future or perhaps display your feelings or greatest desires if you gaze into it?

[MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie]

It shows a bunch of things.

'Here is the Mirror of Galadriel,' she said. 'I have brought you here so that you may look in it, if you will.'
The air was very still, and the dell was dark, and the Elf-lady beside him was tall and pale. 'What shall we look for, and what shall we see?' asked Frodo, filled with awe.
'Many things I can command the Mirror to reveal,' she answered, 'and to some I can show what they desire to see. But the Mirror will also show things unbidden, and those are often stranger and more profitable than things which we wish to behold. What you will see, if you leave the Mirror free to work, I cannot tell. For it shows things that were, and things that are, adn things that yet may be. But which is t that he sees, even the wisest cannot always tell. Do you wish to look?'

So, in answer to your question, it can, but it does not always do that.

[davem]

Evenstar, I think its the second option you mention. It shows what you hope or fear. It makes unconcious things concious, & forces you to confront them. It means that you can no longer go on repressing things. They're there, right in front of you, & you're forced to make a decision. I suspect Sam had been fearing what he saw in the Mirror for a very long time, but refused to face it, repressed it & wished it would go away. Those fears would have built & built through the quest, & possibly made it impossible for him to go on, even, at some point have driven him to abandon it & go back. By being shown the absolute worst thing that could have happened back home he was forced to make a decision. Without looking into the Mirror I wonder whether he could have done his 'job' as he called it.
It was the same with Frodo, only more so.

[tifo_gcs]

But that offers no explanation for one part of Frodo's experience with the mirror, when the eye of Sauron appears looking for the ring. I don't believe that Sauron had not been on my Frodo's mind up to then, or that he had been repressing thoughts of him. Especially when Galadriel says "for it has also been on my mind," thereby implying that it is also on Frodo's mind.

I think in some ways Galdriel's Mirror functions like an elven plantir, except with the added dimension of time. Where as the palantir were only able to look at objects from great distances, the mirror of Galadriel will show you both present and future (and past, though that doesn't come into play). However, it will not show views or scenarios that are not relevant to the person viewing the mirror, and because it may show the future, the scene viewed may never come to pass (also mentioned by Galdriel). Sam is attached to Bagshot Row, and the mirror shows him Bagshot Row changed. It is precisely because Sam is thinking of Bagshot Row, and connected to it, that the mirror shows him Bagshot Row.

Possibly, if Merry looked he might se an image of Theoden, or Treebeard, and they might be dead, dying, or fighting against Saruman, though he wouldn't know why he saw them. But that's just an afterthought and not part of my argument

[davem]

Yeah, an Elven Palantir. Never thought of that. That brings us round to the whole Galadriel-Feanor thing. The Mirror is Her 'Palantir', & in the same way the Phial, containing the light of Earendel, is her 'Silmaril'.
At the same time, I think what the Mirror shows you is only what you have to confront, even some things which you may not know about, which may be in 'your' future but which in some way are already destined But that leads us into the area of fate/destiny. Tolkien was deeply influenced by Norse ideas, so you have to take into account Wyrd, which is the individual's destiny within this life, which is ultimately unavoidable.

[davem]

Oops!!! 'an Elven Palantir'! Yeah, before anyone jumps in, I think it should be assumed that both Tifo & I know the Palantiri are Elven!! I think it was just a slip on Tifo's part, which I took up without thinking!

[MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie]

Well, here's my opinion, if my first wasn't clear enough. It can display your greatest desires, but that's only if that's what you want to see when you look in the mirror. It can tell your future, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's going to happen, and that's only if you leave it to show yu hwat it will. It can show you something that will happen 20 years from now, but you are still in the present, which means that depending on what you do from the present to 20 years from now, it might come true or be changed completely or to a degree. As for feelings, I think that what you see in the mirror, if you let it show you what it will, might be (and probably most likely) reflecting some of your feelings, which I think Davem basically said.

[tifo_gcs]

Ahem, yes Davem, thank you for correcting that slight oversight on my behalf [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] What I meant was that the palantir are used by men, while Galadriels mirror is used by elves (with a few exceptions in both cases).

I don't believe that the mirror show images based on how you feel, because it seems like too powerful a tool to be used purely based on the mood of one person (unless I've misunderstood Willie's use of feelings). I think, especially with Davem's implication of Wyrd, that the mirror sticks to showing stuff that is important, but important to more than just one being (in which case it differs from the palantir which could show anything the user wanted to look at, even trifling matters if the user was in a peeping tom mood). Being GALADRIEL's mirror, and knowing Galadriel's rebellious nature, I think one would have to have great mental strength to make it show only what one wants to see. Note that it also shows things that are unbidden, even to Galadriel, so that may even be impossible

[davem]

Does anyone think theres any significance in the fact that both Feanor & Galadriel create a 'Silmaril' & a 'Palantir'? But Feanor 'manufactures' (the 'machine'?) the objects, while Galadriel uses water, a natural element? Feanor seeks to make something which will last forever, while Galadriel's 'creations' are transitory & can be lost (poured away). Is Tolkien pointing up a difference between his two greatest (in the sense of most powerful) characters?

[tifo_gcs]

I think that's reading a bit too much into it, though one can never be sure with Tolkien's constant tinkering around with manuscripts.
What I think is worth noticing is that the Mirror can be made every time Galadriel pours more water into the basin. In that way, Galadriel's magic cannot be lost, unless Galadriel herself is lost, and there was a long and complicated thread about the (im)mortality of elves previously (as you should know). Point being, the mirror won't just be lost.
Earendil the evening star is remade in Galadriel's phial, and the star itself reappears every night. But the star is one of Feanor's actual silmarils. Here Galadriel mirrors Feanor's feat of capturing light. And I don't see the phial as being very transitory.

The point I'm trying to make is that I see too many inconsistencies for there to be any significance, but it could be interesting if someone could convince me of the opposite. But this is straying off topic

[davem]

Well, the phial is 'transitory', in that the water can be poured out, & the light lost. I'm struck by the way Feanor, in the first Age, makes things of 'imperishable crystal', seeking to make them last forever, whereas Galadriel, in the third age, seems to have become aware of the passing of her people, even to the extent of manifesting her powers in such a transitory way. Where's the drive to 'embalm', to impose a 'frozen' permanence on things?
Even Elvish magic is 'evaportating' (if you'll pardon the pun [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] )

[tifo_gcs]

But where does it say that Galadriel's phial has water in it? Or is my memory just horrid?
and you just can't get that embalming out of your head, can you? [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[Tony Puckett]

In my opinion, with regards to Galadriel's mirror, I think that while it has the power to manifest the past, present, future, and anything else inbetween, I think what it showed didn't always have to be on your mind. Perhaps the mirror was something of the sort of the Oracle from The Matrix, in that , if unbidden, it would show you only what you needed to see. Sam was shown Bagshot row to prepare him for the fight in the Shire after an already long and arduous journey. Perhaps Frodo was shown "The Eye" to prepare him for the terror of Sauron's Evil that he experienced every time he put on the ring, and when he entered Mordor. Again, as you can see, I'm a newbie of a sort, and not confident in my Tolkein-lore, but this is my opinion. Please correct me if my youthful exuberence outweighed my ACTUAL knowledge. Thanks!

[ April 02, 2003: Message edited by: Tony Puckett ]

[davem]

As I remember, Galadriel says the phial contains 'the light of Earendel's star, set amid the waters of my fountain'.. Galadriel's power is related to water - she bears Nenya, after all.
And, yeah, the 'embalming' thing. I think that's central to the Elves, the core of their psychology, & what motivates them, so I think, in some way it comes into most things the Elves plan. If you leave that out, you miss a lot of what's going on with them.
Tony, well, as long as your concept of what you need to see is very wide. I think it does show you what you need to see, but not in the strictly practical sense.

[juhsstin]

hello all,

I read The Mirror of Galadriel last night and was wondering about what Frodo sees in it. Namely, what is he actually seeing? (duh). He sees the white figure, presumably Gandalf, who veers off the path to the side. But afterwards he sees things he "knew to be parts of a great history in which he had become involved." The paragrah then continues with a sequence of images:

The mist cleared and he saw a sight which he had never seen before but knew at once: the Sea. Darkness fell. The sea rose and raged in a great storm. Then he saw against the Sun, sinking blood-red into a wrack of clouds, the black outline of a tall ship with torn sails riding up out of the West. Then a wide river flowing through a populous city. Then a white fortress with seven towers. And then again a ship with black sails, but now it was morning again, and the water rippled with light, and a banner bearing the emblem of a white tree shone in the sun. A smoke as of fire and a battle arose, and again the sun went down in a burning red that faded into a grey mist; and into the mist a small ship passed away, twinkling with lights. It vanished, and Frodo sighed and prepared to draw away.

I'm guessing most of the latter half pertains to the Battle at Pelennor and the departure at the Grey Havens... but what is the first "tall ship with torn sails riding up out of the West"?

[doug*platypus]

That would be the ship of Elendil, fleeing the Downfall of Númenor. Although I'm a bit confused as to why Frodo was shown exactly that. The great history that he was a part of through the Ring was more related to the Elves' struggle against Sauron (and Morgoth before him). It would have been more apt for him to see Celebrimbor forging the three rings of the elves than to see Elendil and the founding of Gondor. That seems more related to Aragorn's quest than to Frodo's.

By the way, welcome juhsstin! and congratulations! You are one of a select few newcomers who have the wisdom to search for an existing topic before beginning a new one! [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 3:49 AM January 16, 2004: Message edited by: doug*platypus ]

[Finwe]

Perhaps it was to give Frodo hope. Out of the tumultuous destruction of Numenor, hope was born, and Elendil and his sons managed to escape and found two of the greatest realms in Middle-earth. I think that vision was to give Frodo hope, since that was what Elendil's escape really meant (at least to me). Those who followed the forces of good would always be succoured, even when all times seemed dark and everything seemed hopeless.

[juhsstin]

hehe, I guess I learned my messageboard etiquette. Thanks for the responses. I too was wondering why they show those images pertaining to Numenor and Aragorn... because when Sam looks in, he sees things relating directly to himself. Though I suppose the "disclaimer" that these images were all part of a "great history" explains it. Frodo is the ring-bearer, after all. [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]