Do you wish gollum had lived?

[Sithren]

((uses her most regal voice)) Mortal Elf, darling, please answer me. ((her plain voice)) now...

[Sithren]

anyways...Gollum deserved to die, his time was up and he was a pest.

[the mortal elf]

Ignore those last two posts. A bit of confusion.

[Baran]

Baran, not to be too cynical or anything but a lot of it probably had to do with the fact that Deagol didn't have a loyal manservant standing by, ready to defend him; also the fact that while Deagol didn't know what he had, Frodo did, and was much less likely to let Gollum take a peek.

It seems like you have forgot the struggle Smeagol had with himself. There was one evil part (don't know their English name) who had no hesitations killing Frodo and Sam for the ring, ,and you had the "new" part that wouldn't kill Frodo partly because of the promise he gave and partly because Frodo was nice to him. They decided to go to Shelob as a compromice between he two personalitites. If the evil had been stronger Smeagol would probably have killed both Frodo and Sam at an earlier opportunity, if the good one had been stronger Smeagol would probably not have led them to Shelob at all. I think the good Smeagol would have been stronger if it hadn't been for Sam.
If I don't remember very wrongly Smeagol almost told them what he was up to somewhere in the stairs, will see if I can find the quote later.

[ December 07, 2002: Message edited by: Baran ]

[Baran]

I found the quote, it's in "the stairs of Cirith Ongul". I'm translating it from Norwegian so it will differ quite a bit from the original version.


Sam and Frodo are sleeping in the stairs when Guollum returns after talking to Hutula.

And this is how Gollum found them several hours later when he came back, crawling and creeping down the path from the dark above. Sam sat with his back against the cliff; his head was resting against his shoulder, and he breathed heavily. Frodo was lying in his lap, sound asleep. One of Sams brown hands was lying over his white forehead, and the other lay on his masters chest. Both faces were peacefull.
Gollum watched them. A strange expression crossed his thin, hungry face. His gleaming eyes faded, became pale and grey, old and weary. It looked like he twisted in a sudden pain, and he turned away, peered up towards the mountain pass, shock his head like something inside of him was discussing fiercely. Then he came back slowly reached out a shaking hand. Carefuly, carefuly he touched Frodos knee - but the touch was almost a caress. If any of the sleeping had seen him there for a short moment, they would have thought they saw an old, weary Hobbit, shrinked of all the years who had taken him far past the time measured him, beyond friends and relatives and the fields and streems of youth. An old, pitiful being.
But at the touch Frodo moved and bursted something silently in his sleep. Sam woke up at once. The first thing he saw was Gollum - who thought he was "fingering" with his master. "you there!" he said, with a gruffy voice. "what are you doing?"
"nothing, nothing," Gollum said silently. "kind master!"
But where have you been - sneaking away and sneaking back again, old scoundrel?"
Gollum pulled away, and it shined a green flash under his heavy eyelids. Almost like a spider he looked; his eyes bulging and he duobled up on his springy limbs. The short moment was forever past.

Bear in mind that this is a translation by me from the Norwegian book.

I think this proves Gollum was far from a 100% evil being, he had doubts about sending Frodo (not Sam, admittedly) to Hutula, and I actualy think there was hope for him. If it hadn't been for that Sam!

[Balin999]

Actually, your translation is quite correct.

I think this proves Gollum was far from a 100% evil being, he had doubts about sending Frodo (not Sam, admittedly) to Hutula, and I actualy think there was hope for him. If it hadn't been for that Sam!

I don't think that Gollum had doubts about sending Frodo to Shelob (if Hutula is the translation of Shelob), he only didn't want to hurt him. Gollum himself would never touch Frodo, that's why he led him to Shelob. The part where Gollum gently touches Frodo does show that Gollum wasn't wholly evil at all, but I think that he was far from cure of the ring. Maybe he could become "normal" again, but only after a long long time without the ring. But if the ring was destroyed, Gollum wouldn't have much time left. And if he saw the ring being thrown down into the fire, he would eventually get mad because of the loss of it.
As far as Sam is concerned, he was always suspicious and never too friendly to Gollum, so it's no wonder that Gollum didn't mind to hurt him or strangle him at all. But i don't think that it was Sams fault that Gollum wanted them to be killed.
After all, he was very lucky himself. He wanted the ring and pursued the fellowship since Moria, and suddenly there are only two left of it, who are depending on him. (could be a new thread in the forum maybe). He wouldn't attack the fellowship if there were still nine of them. but that has nothing to do with the subject [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Shelob is interesting, I think it's the only name that was translated freely. Shelob in English, Hutula in Norwegian, Kankra in German...

Smeagol was definitly not 100% evil, but I don't think he could have recovered. He was completly under the command of the ring, and THAT (together with his vow on the precious) was what held his bad side from overtaking the good side and killing Frodo. He would have had the chance when Sam was sleeping.

I think the ending is perfect. Smeagol did not deserve death (I don't think anyone in the book except Sauron and the ring wraithes deserve death), but it was kinda inevitable for him. No one could have willingly thrown the ring into the fire. Frodo could not throw it into his small fire in Hobbiton, and that was a long time before, with the morgul blade, Shelob's poison, tireness, longer ring-wearing and a much stronger ring (it was near Mt. Doom) now making the real destruction of the ring impossible. The ending as JRRT wrote is solved several problems: the one of Smeagol (kill him? let him live?) and the one of destroying the ring (as I said, impossible otherwise).
And it wouldn't have been appropriate for Sam to die. It would IMO been unfair.

That said I will sit back and listen to your responses.

[Elven Mistress]

I'm not sure if i'm getting off topic at all, but as i read the thread this one thought came to mind, rising high above all the others.
Someone said that Smeagol (Gollum) killed Deagol because of the ring's influence (or am i making this up...?) Well, anyway...he did it because of the ring. Now, let us say that Frodo or Sam had the strength to throw the ring into Mt. Doom. What then? The Ring - the thing that "controlled" Gollum would be gone forever. Slowly Smeagol would come out, and with a little compassion - and the weight of the ring lifted - i believe that Gollum really would have rehabilitated.

I think that the ONLY reason Gollum was how he was, was because of the ring. I believe if the ring was destroyed Gollum would realize everything he did and slowly recooperate.

[Jessica Jade]

I'm sure that everyone, at some time, wishes they could change one part about the story, or wonders what would have happened if...

In the end, I know that the story would not have been as powerful as it is without everything that happened in it. Gollum's death was inevitable- remember, the Ring does not truly have the power to create; it only stretches one's life and gives power according to the possesser's native strength. Gollum's life had been stretched beyond his mind's endurance, indeed like "butter scraped over too much bread," in a much worse way than Bilbo began to feel. Since the Ring was the only thing keeping him alive, it makes sense that he should die when the Ring does. In addition, the fact that it was Gollum who destroyed the Ring accidentally while fighting Frodo further illustrates the Ring's inescapable, seductive power- it shows that Frodo could not give up The Ring- at the very end of his arduous, perilous quest, he so very nearly failed. Later on, the lasting power of the Ring is further explored when Frodo experienced Ring-withdrawal,in which Gollum's death haunted him because he was not able to save him after all that had happened. Gollum was far beyond redemption, his mind was too shriveled, burned by his desire to possess The Ring.Basically, Gollum's death made lent the story much more power and irony, making the entire ending much more haunting. One of my favorite aspects of TOlkien is the bittersweet irony of it all--like Frodo says to sam at the end of the last chapter, "...when things are in danger, someone must give them up, lose them, so that others may keep them." I think that that is a recurrent theme or subtheme interwoven throughout the whole Middle Earth saga. I do not wish Gollum had lived. Every single event that happened, every nuance of emotion in the books- they all pertain to, and support the book's overall foundation: The Ring is powerful. Just how powerful? The nearly incomprehensible allure of the Ring is manifest in everything that took place in the novel. You see? The story is so tightly knit- everything has strings leading to everything else. If you change one thing about Tolkein's masterpiece, then the entire structure has been weakened, likely to collapse. Or, at best, become flimsy, conventional, and trite (like "happily ever after"). I cried so much at the novel's conclusion, when Frodo had to leave Middle Earth because he simply could not go on enjoying life in that world anymore, due to the nature of the evil he battled. I wished with all of my heart that he could heal, that he could be happy again, that he could be older and wiser, but still content, living in the Shire like he had before his ordeal. Yet, i know that the ending would not have been nearly as special and nearly as touching if not for the exact events that did happen. I believe that Tolkien wrote an ingenious, original masterpiece. I could never truly desire to change a word of it.

[Aragorn Husband of Arwen]

I don't really think I would have liked him to live. I mean at the end of every book, not every character should live.

On the other hand it would have been interesting, I wouldn't have minded seeing a offshoot of books about him. Maybe we would have seen "Gollum Lives" Instead of Frodo Lives. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Baran]

I don't think that Gollum had doubts about sending Frodo to Shelob

I think this proves he had doubts:

It looked like he twisted in a sudden pain, and he turned away, peered up towards the mountain pass, shock his head like something inside of him was discussing fiercely.

I could never truly desire to change a word of it.

I wouldn't change anything in the book either, but I'm stil arguing that Gollum could have been saved.

[MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie]

Yes, I'm still arguing the same too Baran. Thanks once again for the backup [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] .

Jessica Jade, you said

In the end, I know that the story would not have been as powerful as it is without everything that happened in it. Gollum's death was inevitable- remember, the Ring does not truly have the power to create; it only stretches one's life and gives power according to the possesser's native strength. Gollum's life had been stretched beyond his mind's endurance, indeed like "butter scraped over too much bread," in a much worse way than Bilbo began to feel. Since the Ring was the only thing keeping him alive, it makes sense that he should die when the Ring does.

That point, to me makes no sense at all. I mean I used to think the same thing; it sounded believeable, but the more I think about it, the more stupid it sounds. The ring provides long life so the ring-bearer's life is prolonged because of the ring. You say that the ring-bearer who's life is greatly prolonged should die if the ring is destroyed. It doesn't work out.

If having the ring on prolongs life, then having it off should take away some of that prolonged life. Or if that doesn't happen, which it didn't, then not having the ring in your posession should take away some of that prolonged life. But that does not happen. You see this shown in gollum's example. If the ring can only prolong life while you posess it, then not having it should make you die or rot quickly and then die, and gollum should have died a very long time ago if that were true, which it is not. So if the ring cannot prolong your life if you don't currently posess it, then what does it matter if it is destroyed? If it is destroyed, it can't prolong life, just like it can't prolong life when you don't posess it. So if it is destroyed, then why would it take away the time in the ring-bearer's life that ring prolonged? It wouldn't.

"the Ring does not truly have the power to create; it only stretches one's life and gives power according to the possesser's native strength." Right you are. But tell me this: Where the h*ll does it say the ring has the power to take away??? And maybe, it can take away power that it gave, but it can not take away life that it gave. If the ring could not take away life when the person lost it, then why could it when it was destroyed? It couldn't prevent the aging after the person loses posession but it couldn't take away life it gave. The only life it takes away when it is destroyed is Sauron's, and only because he bound his lifeforce into the ring. So when the ring dies, Suaron dies. Gollum would not have died since his life force was not bound to the ring.

You said, 'like "butter scraped over too much bread," in a much worse way than Bilbo began to feel. Since the Ring was the only thing keeping him alive, it makes sense that he should die when the Ring does.' If this were true, then the gollum should have died when he lost the ring. And if the ring was still keeping him alive and prolonging his life then, the ring was still helping gollum and gollum should have all the power's that come with the ring. But since the ring did not do any of this to Gollum while it was out of his possesion, it shouldn't take any thing away from gollum when it dies.

My point is that Gollum would have not died when the ring died. His death was not ineviteable. And therefore, he could have rehabilitated. He would still be scarred by the ring, but relieved in a way since the ring was destroyed.

You also said,

One of my favorite aspects of TOlkien is the bittersweet irony of it all--like Frodo says to sam at the end of the last chapter, "...when things are in danger, someone must give them up, lose them, so that others may keep them." I think that that is a recurrent theme or subtheme interwoven throughout the whole Middle Earth saga.

This kind of realates to 2 themes that I thought of. It's in this thread In praise of Sam's Pans and the themes I see are that some times you must give something up in order to gain some thing and sometimes when you win, you lose. You might find it interesting.

Elven Mistress, you said,

Someone said that Smeagol (Gollum) killed Deagol because of the ring's influence (or am i making this up...?) Well, anyway...he did it because of the ring. Now, let us say that Frodo or Sam had the strength to throw the ring into Mt. Doom. What then? The Ring - the thing that "controlled" Gollum would be gone forever. Slowly Smeagol would come out, and with a little compassion - and the weight of the ring lifted - i believe that Gollum really would have rehabilitated.

You were not making that up, I said it. Thank you for supporting me [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] . I said that in this thread .Gollum vs Other Hobbits And no, you are not getting off topic. It really relates to this thread and discussion. I'm glad you see my point and agree with it.

This reply was very long and confusing. And I'm not sure if I clearly got my point across. So if something is hazy or confusing let me know and I'll try to explain better. Thanks.

[Jessica Jade]

MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie -- quite fiery about this issue, are you not? Seems like it from your post. Almost like you were becoming indignant and righteous about your view. No worries, i will write a full reply very soon. I think you misinterpreted a lot of what i was saying, or perhaps didn't make myself clear enough. I'm well aware that my post wasn't the most organized, well thought out piece of writing. It's almost 4am here and i need to get some sleep. Talk to you soon.

[MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie]

I'm kind of p*ssed right now so I guess I am sort of in a 'firey' mood. Sorry about that. Anyways you said that you don't think you made yourself cear enough. I don't think that I made my reply that clear also, so I'll try to edit it later or something. I wasn't indignant but maybe I acted a little too righteous. I don't think I'm right, but I'm just very opinionated and I think I got carried away, sorry again. But thanks for your reply. I do enjoy the argument and I look forward to your next reply.

Elven Mistress, I think that the thread where I said that was actually this one The Forgotten Ringbearer instead of Gollum vs Other Hobbits. Sorry about that. I look forward to you reply too.

[ December 10, 2002: Message edited by: MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie ]