HAHA! Gandalf leaves again! - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Dorathain_Flamesword · 11-29-2002, 09:18 PM

You know what is pretty amusing. I am still reading, for the first time, the LotR and I am about half-way through the RotK. And this is what I have noticed throughout it (and the Hobbit.) Before everything dangerous, Gandalf always goes out on some errand or something. i.e. In the Hobbit, when the Trolls capture the Dwarves, Gandalf disappears and finally appears when all the Trolls are dead. And when the Battle of the Five armies is about to start, Gandalf disappears on some errand and comes back when it's done. His cycle is like this: He sends the Company or the Dwarves on a suicide mission and he just runs off. Like after Beorn's, they are coming to Mirkwood, Gandalf just kind of says, "Ok, go into Mirkwood, a very dangerous place, and I am gonna go back to Beorn." It makes me laugh for a long time.

And in TTT, right before Helm's Deep, Gandalf says to Theodin, "Ok, I have an errand, go and head on to Helm's Deep." And then he comes back with Men at the end of the battle. It sets me laughing for minutes. The only battle so far that Gandalf never ran from is the Siege of Gondor or the Battle of the Pelennor Fields.

Manwe Sulimo · 11-29-2002, 09:21 PM

Yeah, it's pretty interesting how at the Gates of Minas Tirith his enemy runs before he can....

He also doesn't flee from the Morannon (unless you're a real nitpicker and think that what he does is really running away), or the Balrog. Or the Fords of Bruinen.

akhtene · 11-29-2002, 10:30 PM

An interesting observation, Dorathain_Flamesword. And a very reserved reply [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

OK, if Gandalf never for a second leave his companions, what on earth would he need them at all. As probably the most powerful in M-E he could pull out any errand on his own - but for restrictions imposed by the Valar on his interference and dominating. If his companions become too dependent on his power - wouldn't it be kind of domination? So anyway he had to give them a chance to cope on their own (like a dad would do, to give the kids the feeling of being worthy), which they did for most time well. If not - then he was somewhere around to help, like unexpected reserve force.

Kalimac · 11-29-2002, 10:42 PM

Ah, Dorathain, but consider where Gandalf is running off *to*. In "The Hobbit" we find out later that he's been helping to drive the Necromancer (AKA Sauron in embryo) out of Dol Guldur, surely a rather nippy and dangerous piece of work; faced with the choice between confronting Smaug and confronting the Necromancer, Smaug would (undoubtedly for the first time) begin to look comparatively attractive). As for Helm's Deep, he was scouting things out (and in very dangerous country, and unaided) so that they'd have some idea how things lay after the battle was over.

Incidentally, Gandalf didn't "send" the Dwarves off anywhere; in "The Quest of Erebor" the backstory is described a little more fully - Thorin & Co. had made up their minds to make a desperate bid to reclaim their treasure, and happened to encounter Gandalf in Bree, where he agreed to help them out a bit. He certainly didn't instigate the thing, and from the beginning gave Thorin warning that he had other pressing business and that they couldn't expect him to stay around very long. Though it's understandable that they were dismayed when he actually acted on these statements [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img].

Akhtene - ia soglasna, you're right. In the end it was better for them (and Bilbo) to figure things out on their own. Gandalf always being there for them would have been the equivalent of the Eagles swooping in and saving everyone at the least sign of danger - how are they ever going to learn anything if there's that perpetual safety-net ready to catch them if they fall further than six inches?

Dorathain_Flamesword · 11-29-2002, 10:51 PM

Oh, cool, thanks. I should've looked into a bit more. But, it gave me a good laugh. Thanks all!

Legolas · 11-29-2002, 11:43 PM

The dwarves were on a mission of their own interests. Gandalf only helped them at times because he suggested Bilbo and really wanted Smaug out of the picture - he would've proved to be a strong tool for Sauron. Gandalf had things he *had* to attend to - much more important things. Gandalf did stick out the Battle of the Five Armies. At Helm's Deep, had Gandalf not left and retrieved Erkenbrand and his troops, it's not certain Rohan would've won that battle.

MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie · 11-30-2002, 12:43 AM

Yeah good replies akhtene, kalimae, and legolas.

Gandalf helped a lot and he was a life saver. Keep in mind that it was not his journey w/the dwarves and he was just travelling with them for a while, while they were on the same road. When he went off, he had a reason and he was always busy. I think that since tolkien made gandalf the person who shows up in the nick of time, it made him very shady. I don't know if tolkien did this on purpose or not but it made gandalf like a mystery. It made his character more interesting.

When Gandalf shows up, he always turns the table. Tolkien didn't always have gandalf appearing after a dissapearance to help though. Like with the balrog. If gandalf was always saving the day and reappearing, he would be completely predictable. Tolkien made him like he is and it keeps you thinking on your feet. Also, you can tell that if Gandalf stays to help someone, it is his most important errand.

Gandalf was like a crutch. He was there to help you when you needed it but allowed you to help yourself. When you didn't need him, he would leave.

[ November 30, 2002: Message edited by: MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie ]

Dorathain_Flamesword · 11-30-2002, 11:33 AM

Hehe. Cool thanks. I feel extremely stupid for saying that! HAHA!

[img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]

-Imrahil- · 11-30-2002, 02:40 PM

Good points made by everyone. I feel he wasn't really running from any of these battle, he was giving the fellowship (both in hobbit and LotR) the chance to do it on their own. And as for Mirkwood he really did have pressing business, if I remember correctly the council drove Sauron out of his stronghold (forgot the name, somewhere south of Mirkwood?) that year.

Neferchoirwen · 12-01-2002, 10:06 AM

exactly my point in the mad-Gandalf thread.

Quote:

fellowship (both in hobbit and LotR) the chance to do it on their own

He did it all for the best, and it's their age, anyway.

thorondil · 12-10-2002, 05:42 PM

Book Three, Chapter IV

He spoke a word to Shadowfax, and like an arrow from a bow the great horse sprang away. Even as they looked he was gone: a flash of silver in the sunset, a wind over the grass, a shadow that fled and passed from sight. Snowmane snorted and reared, eager to follow; but only a swift bird on the wing could have overtaken him.
'What does that mean?' said one of the guard to Hama.
'That Gandalf Greyhame has need of haste,' answered Hama. 'Ever he goes and comes unlooked-for.'
'Wormtongue, were he here, would not find it hard to explain,' said the other.

thorondil · 12-10-2002, 05:50 PM

It's Chapter VII...I became too enamoured with the Roman numerals. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

11-29-2002, 09:18 PM	#1
Dorathain_Flamesword Animated Skeleton Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: U.S. Though Middle-Earth, Ireland or New Zealand would suit me. I am 50% Irish. Posts: 35	HAHA! Gandalf leaves again! You know what is pretty amusing. I am still reading, for the first time, the LotR and I am about half-way through the RotK. And this is what I have noticed throughout it (and the Hobbit.) Before everything dangerous, Gandalf always goes out on some errand or something. i.e. In the Hobbit, when the Trolls capture the Dwarves, Gandalf disappears and finally appears when all the Trolls are dead. And when the Battle of the Five armies is about to start, Gandalf disappears on some errand and comes back when it's done. His cycle is like this: He sends the Company or the Dwarves on a suicide mission and he just runs off. Like after Beorn's, they are coming to Mirkwood, Gandalf just kind of says, "Ok, go into Mirkwood, a very dangerous place, and I am gonna go back to Beorn." It makes me laugh for a long time. And in TTT, right before Helm's Deep, Gandalf says to Theodin, "Ok, I have an errand, go and head on to Helm's Deep." And then he comes back with Men at the end of the battle. It sets me laughing for minutes. The only battle so far that Gandalf never ran from is the Siege of Gondor or the Battle of the Pelennor Fields. __________________ Even as they spoke there came a blare of trumpets. Then there was a crash and a flash of flame and smoke. The waters of the Deeping-stream poured out hissing and foaming: they were choked no longer, a gaping hole was blasted in the wall. A host of dark shapes poured in. "Devilry of Saruman!" cried Aragorn. -Helm's Deep.

11-29-2002, 09:21 PM	#2
Manwe Sulimo Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Taurelilómëa-tumbalemorna Tumbaletaurëa Lómëanor Posts: 553	Yeah, it's pretty interesting how at the Gates of Minas Tirith his enemy runs before he can.... He also doesn't flee from the Morannon (unless you're a real nitpicker and think that what he does is really running away), or the Balrog. Or the Fords of Bruinen. __________________ "Monkeys learn sign language so they can tell the dolphins they love them."

11-29-2002, 10:30 PM	#3
akhtene Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2002 Location: stronghold of the North Posts: 390	An interesting observation, Dorathain_Flamesword. And a very reserved reply [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] OK, if Gandalf never for a second leave his companions, what on earth would he need them at all. As probably the most powerful in M-E he could pull out any errand on his own - but for restrictions imposed by the Valar on his interference and dominating. If his companions become too dependent on his power - wouldn't it be kind of domination? So anyway he had to give them a chance to cope on their own (like a dad would do, to give the kids the feeling of being worthy), which they did for most time well. If not - then he was somewhere around to help, like unexpected reserve force. __________________ Где найти мне сил, чтобы вернуться через века, Чтобы ты - простил?.. А трава разлуки высока...

11-29-2002, 10:42 PM	#4
Kalimac Candle of the Marshes Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Flyover Country Posts: 780	Ah, Dorathain, but consider where Gandalf is running off to. In "The Hobbit" we find out later that he's been helping to drive the Necromancer (AKA Sauron in embryo) out of Dol Guldur, surely a rather nippy and dangerous piece of work; faced with the choice between confronting Smaug and confronting the Necromancer, Smaug would (undoubtedly for the first time) begin to look comparatively attractive). As for Helm's Deep, he was scouting things out (and in very dangerous country, and unaided) so that they'd have some idea how things lay after the battle was over. Incidentally, Gandalf didn't "send" the Dwarves off anywhere; in "The Quest of Erebor" the backstory is described a little more fully - Thorin & Co. had made up their minds to make a desperate bid to reclaim their treasure, and happened to encounter Gandalf in Bree, where he agreed to help them out a bit. He certainly didn't instigate the thing, and from the beginning gave Thorin warning that he had other pressing business and that they couldn't expect him to stay around very long. Though it's understandable that they were dismayed when he actually acted on these statements [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]. Akhtene - ia soglasna, you're right. In the end it was better for them (and Bilbo) to figure things out on their own. Gandalf always being there for them would have been the equivalent of the Eagles swooping in and saving everyone at the least sign of danger - how are they ever going to learn anything if there's that perpetual safety-net ready to catch them if they fall further than six inches? __________________ Father, dear Father, if you see fit, We'll send my love to college for one year yet Tie blue ribbons all about his head, To let the ladies know that he's married.

11-29-2002, 10:51 PM	#5
Dorathain_Flamesword Animated Skeleton Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: U.S. Though Middle-Earth, Ireland or New Zealand would suit me. I am 50% Irish. Posts: 35	Oh, cool, thanks. I should've looked into a bit more. But, it gave me a good laugh. Thanks all! __________________ Even as they spoke there came a blare of trumpets. Then there was a crash and a flash of flame and smoke. The waters of the Deeping-stream poured out hissing and foaming: they were choked no longer, a gaping hole was blasted in the wall. A host of dark shapes poured in. "Devilry of Saruman!" cried Aragorn. -Helm's Deep.

11-29-2002, 11:43 PM	#6
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	The dwarves were on a mission of their own interests. Gandalf only helped them at times because he suggested Bilbo and really wanted Smaug out of the picture - he would've proved to be a strong tool for Sauron. Gandalf had things he had to attend to - much more important things. Gandalf did stick out the Battle of the Five Armies. At Helm's Deep, had Gandalf not left and retrieved Erkenbrand and his troops, it's not certain Rohan would've won that battle. __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

11-30-2002, 12:43 AM	#7
MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: San Francisco Posts: 573	Yeah good replies akhtene, kalimae, and legolas. Gandalf helped a lot and he was a life saver. Keep in mind that it was not his journey w/the dwarves and he was just travelling with them for a while, while they were on the same road. When he went off, he had a reason and he was always busy. I think that since tolkien made gandalf the person who shows up in the nick of time, it made him very shady. I don't know if tolkien did this on purpose or not but it made gandalf like a mystery. It made his character more interesting. When Gandalf shows up, he always turns the table. Tolkien didn't always have gandalf appearing after a dissapearance to help though. Like with the balrog. If gandalf was always saving the day and reappearing, he would be completely predictable. Tolkien made him like he is and it keeps you thinking on your feet. Also, you can tell that if Gandalf stays to help someone, it is his most important errand. Gandalf was like a crutch. He was there to help you when you needed it but allowed you to help yourself. When you didn't need him, he would leave. [ November 30, 2002: Message edited by: MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie ] __________________ Do Not Touch -Willie

11-30-2002, 11:33 AM	#8
Dorathain_Flamesword Animated Skeleton Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: U.S. Though Middle-Earth, Ireland or New Zealand would suit me. I am 50% Irish. Posts: 35	Hehe. Cool thanks. I feel extremely stupid for saying that! HAHA! [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] __________________ Even as they spoke there came a blare of trumpets. Then there was a crash and a flash of flame and smoke. The waters of the Deeping-stream poured out hissing and foaming: they were choked no longer, a gaping hole was blasted in the wall. A host of dark shapes poured in. "Devilry of Saruman!" cried Aragorn. -Helm's Deep.

11-30-2002, 02:40 PM	#9
-Imrahil- Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Dol Amroth, upon the Bay of Belfalas Posts: 259	Good points made by everyone. I feel he wasn't really running from any of these battle, he was giving the fellowship (both in hobbit and LotR) the chance to do it on their own. And as for Mirkwood he really did have pressing business, if I remember correctly the council drove Sauron out of his stronghold (forgot the name, somewhere south of Mirkwood?) that year. __________________ My body is broken. I go to my fathers. And even in their mighty company I shall not now be ashamed. I felled the black serpent. A grim morn, and a glad day, and a golden sunset!

12-10-2002, 05:42 PM	#11
thorondil Haunting Spirit Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 53	Book Three, Chapter IV He spoke a word to Shadowfax, and like an arrow from a bow the great horse sprang away. Even as they looked he was gone: a flash of silver in the sunset, a wind over the grass, a shadow that fled and passed from sight. Snowmane snorted and reared, eager to follow; but only a swift bird on the wing could have overtaken him. 'What does that mean?' said one of the guard to Hama. 'That Gandalf Greyhame has need of haste,' answered Hama. 'Ever he goes and comes unlooked-for.' 'Wormtongue, were he here, would not find it hard to explain,' said the other. __________________ only that Part from which he came

12-10-2002, 05:50 PM	#12
thorondil Haunting Spirit Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 53	It's Chapter VII...I became too enamoured with the Roman numerals. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] __________________ only that Part from which he came