Arwen's Grave Choice

[mark12_30]

In the thread Awesome Deaths Bethberry and Lush have poignantly recalled that Arwen's grave is lonely and unsung, and will eventually be forgotten. Bethberry provided this quote (many thanks Bethberry) :

But Arwen went forth from the House, and the light of her eyes was quenched, and it seemed to her people that she had become cold and grey as nightfall in winter that comes without a star. Then she said fairwell to Eldarion, and to her daughters, and to all whom she had loved; and she went out from the city of Minas Tirith and passed away to the land of Lórien, and dwelt there alone under the fading trees until winter came. Galadriel had passed away and Celeborn also was gone, and the land was silent.

'There at last when the mallorn-leaves were falling, but spring was not yet come, she laid herself to rest upon Cerin Amroth; and there is her green grave, until the world is changed, and all the days of her life are utterly forgotten by men that come after, and elanor and niphredil bloom no more east of the Sea.

Arwen's death (and choice of gravesite) resonates with me too, but I think for different reasons.

Had she remained in Gondor, she would have been honored and revered. Imagine having Arwen for a "Queen Mother"! Certainly her wisdom would not have gone to waste. She would have been consulted often and certainly would have been well-loved and in-demand. She would not have been lonely.

Yet she turned her back on that-- *and* she turned her back on the company of her own flesh and blood. Her children were not taken from her. They were alive and well. They could have been a great comfort to her. Why did she leave the remainder of her family?

Why instead did she go back to "the heart of elvendom on earth"?

[Son of Númenor]

Great thread idea!

I think your last question - 'Why instead did she go back to "the heart of elvendom on earth"?' - speaks for itself. Arwen, it seems, longed for her people, & on some level surely she regretted the fact that she would not be reuinted with them, being sundered from the Rings of the World until the End. After all, she had been alive for thousands of years before meeting Aragorn, & though their love was undoubtedly strong, they were only married for 120 years, & 'together' only a little longer - a proverbial blink of the eye for one of the Firstborn.

After having lived for many hundreds of years under the assumption that she would spend countless more with her father & her people, it seems that Arwen's last days in Middle-earth, facing the finality of her decision, were tinged with doubt, grief, regret & longing.

[NightKnight]

And what happened to her body when she had died? Did it just lie there, open for birds and beasts to eat, or was she buried somewhere? And in that case, by who? If she was actually buried, it is possible that Eldarion or his sisters or their descendants could have gone there to mourn. I don't think that her grave and life were forgotten, at least not as long as Gondor still stood.

[Imladris]

Another reason, despite the fact that it was elvendom on earth and that she missed her people, would be the fact that her grandmother (?) Galadriel had dwelt there. I got the vague impression that Arwen spent a lot of time in Lothlorien before she married Aragorn and maybe she just wanted to die at home. Maybe when Aragorn was alive, Gondor was her home because the love of her life dwelt there, but since he had died Gondor could no longer be her home. So she went to Lothlorien.

[mark12_30]

Well, I chose the wrong search string, but Saucie led me to the old thread (I love Who's Online!),.

Go here"Why Did Arwen Do That?" for an established and erudite treatment of this issue (Sqatter starts at post #5.)

Esty will probably close this one.

[The Saucepan Man]

There are some interesting thoughts on the issues raised above in these threads:

Why did Arwen do that?

and

Who buries Arwen?

That is not to say, of course, that the discussion should not continue here. I just thought that it might be helpful to link to some previous threads that have touched on these issue.

In the first thread linked to, there is a fascinating exploration of why Arwen would wish to leave her family to die alone in a fading forest. I, for one, found it quite difficult to understand why whatever it was that led her there should be stronger than her maternal bond with her children. On this issue, I would recommend Mr Underhill's excellent analysis at post #35.

Edit: Helen, you beat me to it while I was reviewing some of the wonderful posts on that thread!

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Moderator's note: Though it is a good idea to read those past threads to see what was discussed, this one can continue. There may be new aspects and the discussion may take a different direction, so carry on!

[Bêthberry]

That old thread is a wonderful thing to behold! I remember it fondly, as the elves remember their past days. Truth be told, I also remember wondering with some degree of amusement how long Saucepan had been a father; I knew that Squatter was not; I can say this now: I know Sauce better!

Yet, thoughts and life goes on and so I would like to add something here that I did not to that discussion: proof that Estelyn need not close this thread just yet.

Tolkien's passage reverberates for me with something akin to musical harmony. There is an allusion which made me favour Rimbaud's idea that Arwen's passing belongs to the expression of theme and literary type rather than to psychological reality. It is the similarity between Tolkien's description of Arwen's passing and Psalm 103, verses 15 and 16. Helen has copied Tolkien's description from the Appendix into the first post here. Compare that with the King James' Bible:

As for man, his days are as grass; as a flower of the field, so he flourisheth.

For the wind passeth over it, and it is gone; and the place thereof shall know it no more.

I see this as suggesting that Arwen's role in Lord of the Rings is to bridge that very difference beteen the elves and the doom of men. It is, for me, a poignant symbolic role.

[mark12_30]

Bethberry, that's food for meditation...

A couple more thoughts simmering:

#1. Did Luthien have a grave? (Did Beren?) I can't remember (No Sil here at work.)

#2. What is it about the removal of her grave to a "green" place? As opposed to a stony place, Gondor. There's some ontrast here between elf and man (there must be) but it's ... not... clear yet.

Her relocation also strikes me as so very odd, because I am so used to the (Christian) concept of husband and wife being buried side-by-side. Why? Because they are *waiting for the resurrection.* Who do you want to be the first person that you see when you are raised from the dead? Your beloved, of course. It makes sense. Hence, JRR and Edith are buried Side By Side, (As Beren and Luthien... hmmm, see question #1.) So, of course, are all my (known) ancestors, buried side by side with their spouses. It's a very common thing.

But I guess it's not all that common in Middle-Earth. Firstly, there's nothing said about a resurrection; the focus is on "Beyond the Circles Of The World." But besides that, the Kings seem to be buried alone. Where did their wives end up? (cue Lush & Bethberry's lament for unsung women.) Likewise in Rohan, there is no indication that the king's burial mounds included their wives.

I understand if one dies on the battlefield. But such is not the case here.

Come to that, what do you *do* with a dead elf? Aside from leaving them simmering in the dead marshes, I can't recall any elven gravesites.

Further thoughts: Where in the Trilogy is there ever mention of a woman's grave? What about the Sil? Even Niniel leaps to her death; I don't recall a mention of a grave??

Did Tolkien perhaps have some aversion to thinking about a woman's death, or a woman's grave? Is it connected with the matricide issue, I wonder? Or have I just forgotten a list of women's graveites? (Entirely possible.)

[The Saucepan Man]

Come to that, what do you *do* with a dead elf?

Tecnically, I suppose, Arwen was not an Elf. But the point is well taken. Perhaps, since they no longer required their physical bodies when their spirits went to Mandos, the Elves practised cremation. Certainly, as they were immortal, they would have no logical reason to practice ancestor worship, whereas Men, being mortal and having no conception of what happens to their spirits after death, might well be inclined to do so. And isn't ancestor worship the original basis for marking burial sites?

Of course, there's no reference (as far as I am aware) to Hobbit burial sites either (save that Merry and Pippin were, I think, buried alongside King Elessar).

Further thoughts: Where in the Trilogy is there ever mention of a woman's grave? What about the Sil?

Didn't Turin come across his sister lying on Morwen's burial mound (sorry, no book to hand either)? Or did the mound simply mark the spot where she died?

Having said all that, the only burial sites that I can recall being mentioned are those of Kings and Stewards. We never hear of graves for "commoners" (or Hobbits - see above), with the exception, I suppose, of those who fell at Helm's Deep. Perhaps only the royal (and battlefield) burial sites are mentioned because they are the only ones relevant to the story.

[Son of Númenor]

Didn't Turin come across his sister lying on Morwen's burial mound (sorry, no book to hand either)? Or did the mound simply mark the spot where she died?

I believe he did, as well as the burial mound of Finduilas. On one or both of them (I haven't got the Sil with me either, so I could not tell you which one or if it was both), there were markings commemorating the life of the buried.

Good point about ancestor worship, Mr. Saucepan Man. I agree that Elvish immortality would not necessitate the marked, ritualistic burial of a deceased Elf, but I doubt that they were cremated; it does not seem a particularly Elvish practice in nature. I think it is possible that Elves could be laid to rest in the fashion of the Kings of Gondor, but that perhaps their hroar 'fade' over time until they are no longer detectable to anyone living in mortal lands. This is merely an unsubstantiated suggestion, but it seems somewhat in line with Tolkien's beliefs about Elves.

[Bêthberry]

*coughs* Barrow Downs *coughs*

Tomb rifles the barrow for the knives made by the Men of Westernesse, to give to the hobbits, and he also takes some kind of token or piece of jewellry for Goldberry, saying,

Here is a pretty toy for Tom and his lady! Fair was she who long ago wore this on her shoulder. Goldberry shall wear it now, and we will not forget her.

Of course, the barrow could be a place to stash treasures and not necessarily the repose of a person's body with all her earthly effects.

"Mum" still hasn't handed that down to me yet.

[mark12_30]

The Barrow Downs occurred to me, but I didn't recall any feminine mention of burial. ...getting hazy... time I reread the trilogy.

There was the brooch, but there were all sorts of treasures there; and I thought they were sort of gathered by the wights...? Sounds silly now that I type it out. I guess I thought of the Wights as sort of like Dragons, resting on a hoard...

[Child of the 7th Age]

Of course, there's no reference (as far as I am aware) to Hobbit burial sites either (save that Merry and Pippin were, I think, buried alongside King Elessar).

On Hobbit burial, see "The Scouring of the Shire".

Nineteen hobbits were killed and some thirty were wounded. The dead ruffians were laden on waggons and hauled off to an old sand-pit nearby and there buried: in the Battle Pit, as it was afterwards called. The fallen hobbits were laid together in a grave on the hill-side, where later a great stone was set up with a garden about it...

This is said so matter-of-fact that it suggests to me that hobbits routinely buried their dead, and perhaps set up some some sort of a remembrance.

[Guinevere]

Come to that, what do you *do* with a dead elf? Aside from leaving them simmering in the dead marshes, I can't recall any elven gravesites.

I recall four elven graves from the Silmarillion:

Finrod Felagund was buried by Beren and Luthien:

And they buried the body of Felagund upon the hill-top of his own isle, and it was clean again; and the green grave of Finrod, Finarfin's son, fairest of all the princes of the Elves, remained inviolate, until the land was changed and broken, and foundered under destroying seas. But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.

Beleg is buried by Gwindor and Turin:

together they laid Beleg in a shallow grave, and placed beside him Belthronding his great bow

The unhappy Finduilas was buried by the woodmen of Brethil:

They laid her in a mound near that place, and named it Haud-en-Elleth, the Mound of the Elf-maid.

And that's the place where Túrin later finds Nienor/Niniel. (Húrin finds Morwen at Túrin's grave)

After the fall of Gondolin, Glorfindel defended the fugitives against a Balrog on a high pass and was killed

Then Thorondor bore up Glorfindel's body out of the abyss , and they buried him in a mound of stones beside the pass; and a green turf came there, and yellow flowers bloomed upon it amid the barrenness of stone, until the world was changed.

All these Elven-graves are just green mounds, without any names on them.
Since Elves are only killed in battle or fight, they are usually buried where they die, and the survivors who bury them have not much time. Also, I agree with Saucepan-Man that Elves probably wouldn't feel the need for any memorial like tombstones, since they expected their Fëa to go to Mandos' Halls and be reincarnated eventually.

It strikes me that the descriptions of the graves of Finrod and of Glorfindel are very similar to the one of Arwen's grave. Don't you think so too?

[symestreem]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

Didn't Turin come across his sister lying on Morwen's burial mound (sorry, no book to hand either)? Or did the mound simply mark the spot where she died?

Actually, Hurin came across Morwen when she was sitting by the mound. Both Turin and Nienor died before Morwen.

[Lush]

Great thread, Helen.

My compliments on the Biblical allusion, Beth. It succeeded in making me blubber a bit at one in the morning last night (the roommate was perplexed).

Didn't Arwen and Aragorn become engaged in Lorien? It would make sense for her to die there then, in a final earthly gesture to her love, her grave becoming a sort of monument for it, lonely and forgotten as it is.

Also, the very idea that Arwen should give up her immortality for the love of her life would suggest to me that she was meant to die soon after Aragorn himself was dead, as if there was a bond there so great that these two could not be parted by death for long.

Though I would agree that the thematic nature of her passing is divorced from what Bethberry refers to as "psychological reality," the kind in which we would most likely see her taking comfort in her children.

[The Saucepan Man]

Doh! Of course Turin died before his mother. Although I'd forgotten those Hobbit and Elven graves. The perils of posting without the books to hand. At least its always guaranteed here that a knowledgable Downer or two will come along to complete the picture.

And, to take my part in doing so, I will mention Balin's tomb in Khazad-Dum. The Dwarves too appear to have taken the time to mark the graves of their dead when they could, even under the stressful circumstances that the last survivors of Balin's party must have endured.

The point remains, though, that only the mortal races seem to have "celebrated" death by marking the graves of their dead. Then again, maybe we just never hear of the cemetary just behind the Last Homely House.

[Hot, crispy nice hobbit]

Hamlet - "How long will a man lie i' the earth ere he rot?"
First Clown - "Faith, if he be not rotten before he die,- as we have many pocky corses now-a-days, that will scarce hold the laying in, - he will last you some eight year or nine year; a tanner will last you nine year."
Hamlet [Act V, Scene 1, Line 177 - 183]

Alas, poor Yorick! Little should he realise that long after his presence has faded to dust, his manner of decomposition should be discussed on an international forum... But pardon the expression.

Such talks of burial brings to mind the Death Marshes. There, if one recalls, lies the numerous unburied dead of the Last Alliance. If that is true, it seems that the spirits of both Men and Elves would haunt their place of death in the case of violent death; if a decent interring is not granted to their remains.

"'Who are they? What are they?' asked Sam shuddering, turning to Frodo, who was now behind him.
'I don't know,' said Frodo in a dreamlike voice. 'But I have seen them too. In the pools when the candles were lit. They lie in all the pools, pale faces, deep deep under the dark water. I saw them: grim faces and evil, and noble faces and sad. Many faces proud and fair, and weeds in their silver hair. But all foul, all rotting, all dead. A fell light is in them.' Frodo hid his eyes in his hands. 'I know not who they are; but I thought I saw there Men and Elves, and Orcs beside them.'

Sam then suggested that the 'devilry' was hatched by Sauron. But Sauron was defeated in the Last Alliance. One is left to wonder if the houseless spirits persisted because of the unceremonious abandonment of their bodies. If so however, then it rises the question of whether Orcs have got spirits... (NO! I am not going to open another discussion on that! This subject has deviated enough already! Let's get back on topic!)

Arwen's mortal flesh is of the stuff of the earth. If she simply lie down and died, then it has to be supposed that it decomposes in the open air. (What morbid thought that) I can't suppose any hand-maiden would follow her to Loth-lorien even though the Elves would have been gone. Just think of Boromir and his loath of Loth-Lorien. The Lore concerning Elves would probably be even more obscured by the time Arwen died. It is entirely possible, of course, that Arwen have went to Loth-lorien to try and reminisce about her Elven heritage (thats not something her children and those around her could understand), and at the same time to pass from Middle-Earth.

[mark12_30]

(Yeah... but Denmark is consistently damp and moist. In New England it's more like twenty year...)

Maybe I'm grasping at straws here; Tolkien's MacDonald-influence was limited.
But MacDonald heavily influences my own thinking and this may be another reason this is bugging me....

MacDonald described the grave as the door, or very threshhold, of eternity. Elves' doors seem green. Rohirrim graves, even for the kings, are barrows, mounds. Green. But Gondor's royalty-- like Numenor-- are buried in stone, buildings, in the Avenue of the Dead. Brrr. Merry and Pippin end up in Rath Dinen too-- a most un-hobbitlike, stony burial.

They have a stone threshhold to eternity, not a green one? Whereas the Rohirrim have green thresholds? Is it just a hangover from Numenorian customs? Or is there something else?

Balin was buried in Stone but as a dwarf that seems appropriate.

[Lalaith]

A tangential thought: I think I read somewhere that the Barrows were originally burial mounds from the days before men into Beleriand and met the elves.

[Bêthberry]

I'm going back to Lush's remembrance that Arwen and Aragorn were betrothed in Lothlorien, for that point has taken me back to the Lothlorien chapter in LOTR.

The chapter concludes with Frodo finding Aragorn "wrapped in some memory." The passage is long but rewards quotation.

At the hill's foot Frodo found Aragorn, standing still and silent as a tree; but in his hand was a small golden bloom of elanor, and a light was in his eyes. He was wrapped in some fair memory: and as Frodo looked at him he knew that he beheld things as they once had been in this same place. For the grim years were removed from the face of Aragorn, and he seemed clothed in white, a young lord tall and fair; and he spoke words in the Elvish tongue to one whom Frodo could not see. Arwen vanimelda, namarië! he said, and then he drew a breath, and returning out of his thought he looked at Frodo and smiled.

"Here is the heart of Elvendom on earth, " he said," and here my heart dwells forever, unless there be a light beyond the dark roads that we still must tread, you and I. Come with me!" And taking Frodo's hand in his, he left the hill of Cerin Amroth and came there never again as living man.

The bolding is, of course, my own, but what suggestive possibilities lie within that phrasing! It is left open to suggest that Aragorn does come again, but not as living man.

There is yet more of Cerin Amroth. Frodo finds Aragorn at the foot of the hill, but just before this, Frodo had followed Haldir up the hill into the circle of white trees. Here is what Frodo experiences, and here also is an even more suggestive passage.

Though he walked and breathed, and about him living leaves and flowers were stirred by the same cool wind as fanned his face, Frodo felt that he was in a timeless land that did not fade or change or fall into forgetfulness. When he had gone and passed again into the outer world, still Frodo the wanderer from the Shire would walk there, upon the grass among elanor and niphredil in fair Lothlorien.

Again, the bolding is my own. What does that phrase, "passed again into the outer world" mean? It is simply an eloquent way to describe Frodo's return to the task and obligation he has laid upon himself? Or are we to read here of the circles beyond Middle-earth? Does Frodo, even after he sails West for respite and thence to die, return in unearthly form to Cerin Amroth?

And yet more still. Cerin Amroth is the heart of the ancient realm , "the mound of Amroth" where his house was built, and, indeed, Frodo's experience of it describes the particular elven 'magic', the unity of experience, thought and creation, as well as any other passage in Tolkien's Legendarium, I would think. "Mound" is used rather than barrow, but 'mound' is used elsewhere to refer to burial mound, as in Eómer's cry upon the death of Théoden, yet what the site commemorates is rather Amroth's and the elves' achievement.

It seemed to him that he had stepped through a high window that looked on a vanished world. A light was upon it for which his language had no name. All that he saw was shapely, but the shapes seemed at once clear uct, as if they had been first conceived and drawn at the uncovering of his eyes, and ancient as if they had endured forever. All that he saw was shapely, but the shapes seemed at once clear cut, as if they had been first conceived and drawn at the uncovering of his eyes, and ancient as if they had endured for ever. He saw no colour but those he knew, gold and white and blue and green, but they were fresh and poignant, as if he had at that moment first perceived them nd made for them names new and wonderful.

The lay which Legolas sings of Lothlorien is the story of the elf-maid Nimrodel and her lover Amroth, a song of how sorrow came upon Lothlorien.

It is any wonder that there could be a more fitting, symbolic place for Arwen to be laid?

[mark12_30]

Bb-- now that makes huge sense. Yes, it seems to me that "outer world" could very well refer to outside the circles of the world as well as to Arda. (Perhaps it's one of those layered statements I'm so fond of...) And if time is translucent there, then what better place for ghosts to meet?

Perhaps she went there hoping to actually find Aragorn's spirit lingering, or visiting, there. Or perhaps simply to sense the echo of his presence.

I wonder if she did.

I wonder if she was hoping for a time. like Tinuviel, to walk in the forest again with her "Beren".

Now that rocks.

[Bêthberry]

Interesting ideas, Helen.

To me, she returned to the scene where her choice sealed her fate, the return making the choice even more significant. It is as aesthetically appropriate as is Elessar's burial in Rath Dinen. And completely unique and original, nothing like Emily Bronté's end for Heathcliff and Catherine.

As John Donne once wrote, "The grave's a fine and private place but none I think do there embrace."

[Child of the 7th Age]

Bb, Helen


Hmm! The words are suggestive, but I really do have a question here.

Frodo returning in unearthly form to Cerin Amroth? (Child shudders..... ) That seems diametrically opposed to everything Tolkien stresses in his writing: that we are not to wish for immortality or to cling needlessly to life once it is time to depart. And Frodo and Bilbo, like Aragorn, would have the option of choosing when they passed on.

All the examples I can think of where people's spirits linger on Arda are very unhappy ones -- the B-W and his crew, the residents of the Paths of the Dead. I can't think of a single instance where a "good" soul happily lingered.

Why would Frodo and Aragorn's ghosts still be poking around Middle-earth, unless they were not yet at rest? An image like that doesn't fit in. Given Aragorn's stern deathbed scene, I can not imagine him lingering for Arwen. He would have expected her to come. And to be truthful, no matter how many times I read the words in the appendix and the Downs thread where it is discussed, I still can't help feeling that it is Aragorn who has understood the message of life, and Arwen who lags behind him.

Bb - I did always view those words about Lothlorien as referring to the mutability of time within the borders of Lorien. There are many other phrases in that part of the book that can be explained in a similar way. Flieger also has a great deal to say about this. But never did I regard them as referring to the disposition of the fea after death.

If we leave the example of Frodo aside, it is possible that Arwen could feel an echo of Aragorn in Lorien and Cerin Amroth because of the vows they had exchanged. In that sense, I can understand her wanting to return there. But beyond that I am reluctant to go.

If there's another way of looking at this in terms of Tolkien's overall feelings about life and death, please let me know.

~Child

[davem]

Bethberry

First of all, this isn't what I wanted to say - unfortunately, its as close as I can come to saying what I want, so it will have to do, & I hope everyone can somehow pick up on what I really mean.

'Where' is Frodo? In his dream in Tom's house, he is, in a sense, both in his bed & on the ship, seeing the Undying Lands - his body is sleeping, but his mind is in a different place & time. Looked at in one way, he is always on Cerin Amroth, & always approaching the Undying Lands, always at every point in his story.

Memory is, as the Elves have it, a 'reliving' of the past, rather than a remembering of it. So, we are not speaking of looking back to something which is gone forever, but returning & being there, in full awareness.

Its like the book. We can open LotR & read of Frodo walking on Cerin Amroth whenever we choose, or read of him coming to Tol Eressea. Your quote takes that moment of him walking on Cerin Amroth out of the story & presents it to us, here, 'out of context'. So, in a sense, because the event has been described by Tolkien & set in print, Frodo is 'always' there, 'always' walking on Cerin Amroth. Aragorn never comes back to Cerin Amroth in the story, as a living man, yet he is 'always' there, with Arwen.

How shall we understand Arwen's 'return' to Cerin Amroth - as a bald statement of fact - she went back to Lorien? Should we not rather understand that she returned in spirit to that time with Aragorn, & only physically went to a deserted Lorien? When she dies physically, where is she spiritually? Still there, still with him?

I don't think we need to resort to ghosts returning to their old 'haunts' Aragorn, Arwen, Frodo, all of them, are eternally in every moment of their 'story', & always will be.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Davem,

I have no problem viewing time and spirit in the way that you have described.

This is preferable, I believe, to populating Middle-earth with "ghosts"....

~Child

[Bêthberry]

Child and davem,

Hey, I'm no ghost-buster.

I think there is a confusion simply of words here. I never used the word ghost, although Helen did. And my point in referring to these passages in the Lothlorien chapter is not to argue their metaphysical meaning but rather to suggest their symbolical importance.

When I referred to Frodo in "unearthly form" I was simply using my rather inglorious and clumsy way of saying what Tolkien has Aragorn say, "here my heart dwells forever."

And my point is less to expound upon Tolkien's mythology than to suggest a function for Arwen's character, a symbolic or aesthetic function rather than a psychological function.

I read this as a writer trying to get inside a story and feel what is right for each character but I take also a nod from "On Fairy Stories" where Tolkien asks, "But what of the banana skin? Our business with it really only begins when it has been rejected by historians." At the end of the following paragraph he concludes,

I wish to point to someting else that these traditions contain: a singularly suggestive example of the relation of the 'fairy-tale element' to gods and kings and nameless men, illustrating (I believe) the view that this element does not rise or fall, but it there, in the Cauldron of Story, waiting for the great figures of Myth and History, and for the yet nameless He or She, waiting for the moment when they are cast into the simmering stew, one by one or all together...

Arwen, for me, does not function as a psychologically driven character. There is simply too little given to her as a figure in the story. And, actually, I would say the same of Goldberry and Galadriel--not of Eowyn, please note. And this is in no way to demean their depiction. They are like characters out of old narrative whose purpose is to act out an idea--and by this I do not mean allegory. It seems to me absolutely fitting that the elf who choses the doom of man should, once her lover has died and is given all the rituals of the king's burial, return to the place where she made her choice and plighted her troth, particularly given the special sense of magic which Tolkien wishes the elves to represent. She returns to the heart of Elvendom. This is not for me a tenet of belief so much as of good story-telling.

My suggestion about Frodo at Cerin Amroth was designed to show how significant the site is, in terms of its importance to him, of what he understands there with Haldir's help, not to suggest that he or Aragorn linger there as spirits unwilling to leave. This is why the song about Nerindel and Amroth is important. All of this is not to deny what you have to say about the meaning within the Legendarium. For my purpose here the specific contents or the meaning within the Legendarium is not at question.

[mark12_30]

My use of the word ghost was focused on this part here:

Frodo felt that he was in a timeless land that did not fade or change or fall into forgetfulness. When he had gone and passed again into the outer world, still Frodo the wanderer from the Shire would walk there, upon the grass among elanor and niphredil in fair Lothlorien.

This strikes me more that "time is translucent" there, rather than that the place is haunted so to speak. I don't imagine Aragorn's spirit going from Gondor to Cerin Amroth and waiting for her. What I do imagine, is that Arwen might return there hoping for a glimpse through the fabric of time-- like Aragorn had as he held the flower, and said "Arwen Vanimelda, Namarie." Perhaps the word "ghost" has too many applications. A rend (or transparency, better) in the fabric of time is more what i had in mind.

[The Saucepan Man]

... or perhaps it was just that the power of the place, and in Aragorn's case its significance, was such that, when they left it, they still wandered it in their dreams and their thoughts.

~Saucepan the rationalist~

[Bêthberry]

Yes, indeed, Saucepan. Thank you for reminding us that one interpretation is not privileged over another.

~Bethberry the fabulist ~

[mark12_30]

In a polite and non-comittal sort of way i'd like to revisit the translucent-time idea. If Frodo sensed that time was different there; if Frodo knew that he would "be there" even after he was gone, then did Arwen return to Cerin Amroth in the hopes that Aragorn might still "be there" although he was (genuinely) gone? (in a memory sense, or a spiritual sense, or in a time-translucent sense... or other possibilities perhaps...) Did she go hoping simply to hear an echo?

Was Cerin Amroth hallowed because of Amroth or because of Nenya or because of something else? In other words, once Nenya was gone-- was the timelessnes (or time transparency/ translucency) gone also? If Frodo had returned there, would he have felt the same thing he did during his winter there; or would it have just been another forest with nice trees? Was Arwen's final journey fruitless and disappointing, or were the echoes still there?

[davem]

Helen

Quote:'If Frodo had returned there, would he have felt the same thing he did during his winter there; or would it have just been another forest with nice trees? Was Arwen's final journey fruitless and disappointing, or were the echoes still there?'

I'm not sure its a question of 'echoes' - because this brings in the concept of serial time. In A Question of Time Flieger uses Dunne's theories, which influenced Tolkien greatly, to show how from the perspective of eternity, all 'time', all an individual's life, may be accessible from a 'higher' or spiritual perspective - so Frodo's 'spiritual' self could observe any point in his life - I'm uncomfortable to push this idea, because it endangers the 'poetry'.

All moments are aspects or fragments of eternity, & as such, are in a sense 'eternally' present. Arwen & Aragorn are 'always' in that moment on Cerin Amroth. They never leave it - of course, on another level, from another perspective, they do leave it & their lives continue. But the moment is eternal & never ends - it can be accessed at any time as a memory, without having to run through their whole story mentally to get up to that point. How come? How come it is possible to pass into that point alone, unconnected to the rest of the story, as Bethberry can pick the quote from the book, give us that single moment, without having to quote the whole book? And when we read the quote, we see them walking there, & only that. Its like Niggle's leaf, which ends up in the museum, & exists as a painting in its own right, detatched from its context, but eternally perfect in its own right. Perhaps all eternity is simply a sequence of such moments, which exist outside of serial time. Lorien itself is a 'moment' outside time, & even though in serial time it 'was not, had been, is not', each 'moment' of its existence is forever 'present'

I think that there is a danger of trying to fit eternity into some 'theory'. On some level, which I can't put into words, I know what Tolkien is saying. It seems obvious, if I don't analyse it, that Frodo will always walk on Cerin Amroth - indeed it would seem 'wrong' to think that he didn't. Its the same with Aragorn & Arwen. How could they not - perhaps Arwen, still thinking like an Elf, but perhaps also having lost the capacity to 'remember' as she once could, or confused by grief, thought she was somehow returning to that moment - or perhaps she did return there, & was again as she was when she walked there with Aragorn.

Such moments seem to exist without the necessity for context. Our lives pass without notice mostly, but sometimes we 'awake', stepping off the beaten track, into eternity, & the moment never ends, never begins, really, because it 'is', & so always will be.

I'm struck by the feelings of the Fellowship, as they leave Lorien:

As they passed her they turned & their eyes watched her slowly floating away from them. for so it seemed to them: Lorien was slipping backward, like a bright ship masted with enchanted trees, sailing on to forgotten shores, while they sat helpless upon the margin of the grey & leafless world'.

They have left Lorien, & returned to the 'beaten track'. Yet Lorien for them is not a geographical location, it is their memory, & that memory includes their own presence there - they will never be able to remember it objectively, without their own presence there, so, in memory (at the least) they will always 'be' there. Frodo's memory of Lorien will always be a memory of being there himself, and the emotions which arise will be the emotions he felt while there. And when we remember the story, we remember it with Frodo & the Fellowship present. For Frodo 'Lorien' is not a 'place', it is his time there. For Arwen & Aragorn it must be the same - but their memories will not come back to them as blur of events over many visits, but of individual moments, arising at different times.

And yet, is it 'more than memory' we are speaking of? Is memory more than a replaying of what was? Could it be that 'memory' is an 'Elvish' thing for us too, & that when we 'remember' we are in some way back where we were,back in that moment? The moment has passed into eternity, & so become eternally present for us?

How can Frodo not walk forever on Cerin Amroth? How can Aragorn & Arwen not walk there forever, hand in hand? Eternity won't go away, & everything in it is forever.

(I'm still struggling with what I want to say here, & it probably doesn't make too much sense.)

[mark12_30]

I think there's also something else to consider that weaves into all this.

I strongly suspect that Aragorn's abilities in Osanwe (Black Gate & Mouth of Sauron; Houses of Healing.... ) were as a result of his relationship with Arwen. From the appendix:

So it stood afterwards between Elrond and Aragorn, and they spoke no more of this matter, but Aragorn went forth again to danger and toil. And while the world darkened and fear fell on Middle-earth, as the power of Sauron grew and the Barad-dûr rose ever taller and stronger, Arwen remained in Rivendell, and when Aragorn was abroad, from afar she watched over him in thought; and in hope she made for him a great and kingly standard, such as only one might display who claimed the lordship of the Númenoreans and the inheritance of Elendil.

Likely, she was the reader, he was the open book-- at first, until his skills grew. But all during his long journeys, her mind was aware of his.

I suspect that there were very few times-- from their betrothal onward-- that she was unaware of his presence somewhere in Middle-Earth. I wonder whether, when he died, she lost touch with his thoughts for the first time in over 140 years.

If that was the case then no wonder the light was gone from her eyes; and it's very plausible to me that she went to Lorien seeking an echo of his presence there. I also suspect that she did not find what she sought, and so, finally followed him into the unknown.

[Guinevere]

All moments are aspects or fragments of eternity, & as such, are in a sense 'eternally' present. Arwen & Aragorn are 'always' in that moment on Cerin Amroth

Davem, I think in your last post you express exactly what it meant for Tolkien, because I was immediately reminded of a letter he wrote shortly after the death of his wife:

....these never touched our depths nor dimmed our memories of our youthful love. Forever (especially when alone) we still met in the woodland glade, and went hand in hand many times to escape the shadow of imminent death before our last parting.

[mark12_30]

Bethberry wrote:

As for man, his days are as grass; as a flower of the field, so he flourisheth.

For the wind passeth over it, and it is gone; and the place thereof shall know it no more.

Rohirrim graves are grassy mounds. But there is a difference? Or is Tolkien implying that the Rohirrim are nearer to nature (well, they are) than the Gondorians?

Perhaps it also involves the idea that Lorien itself is fading and failling, and her grave lies within a failing, fading place, where timelessness itself is slipping away.

...still pondering...

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

It seems that Arwen's death was more bitter than that of Luthien & Beren for both died together for the Silmaril hastened their end. Melian's lineage (particularly the women) seem to be full of sorrow. It is quite a surprise to me also that Arwen would leave her own children to muse her sorrows in the fading land of Lothlorien, but as many here have said, the memory of her choice was here (lorien). The memory of her people, her Grandmother, & her mother who passed over the sea. So it is only fitting that the finality of the consequences of her choice should befall in the place where it had been sealed. she would've died a bitter death if she stayed in Gondor. Atleast, her sorrows, in some measure were eased by the memory of Lothlorien, fading like her.