Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page |
12-22-2004, 12:07 PM | #1 | |
Laconic Loreman
|
Differences in magic.
I know there have been other threads devoted to magic, but I feel that this thread can stand on it's own. If not, forgive me thou moderaters.
I stumbled upon a quote by Galadriel, which has got me thinking again (jeez that's good). Quote:
But she also distinquishes between her powers, and the powers of the enemy, calling it "deceitful." When we think of the Enemies (Sauron, Saruman, The Ring) all are very deceitful. They try to manipulate, control, twist you, to get you to do what they want. You might say the "lull you into a false sense of security." Let's look at some "good" magical items. Lembas, Miruvor, Mirror of Galadriel, Elven cloaks, all benefit the person in some way. They aren't trying to be deceitful and trick you, they are trying to give you energy, guidance, camoflage...etc. It's almost as if Galadriel is saying the "the deceits of the enemy" is false, fake, where her own power is genuine and real. The "non-magical" beings categorize Galadriel's power, and Sauron's power the same, but Galadriel doesn't. I just wanted to see what others think of this. |
|
12-22-2004, 12:26 PM | #2 |
Pilgrim Soul
Join Date: May 2004
Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle...
Posts: 9,458
|
Here I would make a distinction between "superior" technology and magic. I think that most of these things are not regarded as magical by the elves any more than we regard the internet as magical. However Lembas and Niruvor are versions of things originally made in Valinor so it is possible that Galadriel's power was a factor in their production and it is likely she learn't much from Melian. However Galadriel clearly has power in her own right, mighty among the firstborn (cf Gandalf's reference to Glorfindel "Could he storm the road to the fire by the power that is within him?") but is inherent power the same as magic? Clearly there is a form of spell craft available in Middle Earth as can be sen by Gandalf's behaviour at the doors of Moria - and some of it is available to beings of lesser power than Galadriel (eg THranduil).
Interesting questions are raised by the Mirror of Galadriel - this may be a projection of "foresight" but it is not clear whether Galadriel would regard it as magic- though she knows that is how it will seem to the hobbits. Also the Phial - is it a "skill" or a spell that allows her to trap light in a phial of water - the closest thing to matching the capturing of the light of the trees in the Silmarils? And is the power that it gives a transmission of Galadriel's power or a distant protection given by the Valar who will not involve themselves more directly? The light of the stars is the gift of Elbereth and her name, acts as a "spell" for deflecting evil at several points in the story. I will be interested to hear what others think.
__________________
“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace |
12-22-2004, 12:34 PM | #3 |
Wight
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 126
|
She could also be talking about the difference in elven powers and those of the Maiar, but I think you are on to something. Remember Gollum who was corrupted by the power of the ring and how he reacted when they tied him with elven rope. He said it burned him, appearantly the two types of "magic" don't mix well.
Also I think that some of the things they make are not necessarily made with their power but the power does seem to remain in the items nonetheless
__________________
If you would convince a man that he does wrong, do right. Men will believe what they see.~Henry David Thoreau Last edited by Neithan; 12-22-2004 at 12:41 PM. |
12-22-2004, 12:40 PM | #4 |
Pilgrim Soul
Join Date: May 2004
Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle...
Posts: 9,458
|
True, but it may have just been an extreme loathing of the elves following his captivity rather than magic per se - lembas stuck in his throat too..
__________________
“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace |
12-22-2004, 12:47 PM | #5 |
Wight
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 126
|
O.K., so I guess the best example of the "differences in magic" that Borimir was talking about would be the elven rings verses the one ring.
__________________
If you would convince a man that he does wrong, do right. Men will believe what they see.~Henry David Thoreau |
12-22-2004, 12:54 PM | #6 |
Pilgrim Soul
Join Date: May 2004
Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle...
Posts: 9,458
|
Yes, but I think the difference is in the "intention" perhaps rather than in the fact that Sauron was a Maia and Galadriel an elf ... although there is a spectrum within each category, i would think it is fair to say that most Maiar are more powerful than most elves..
__________________
“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace |
12-22-2004, 01:26 PM | #7 |
Wight
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 126
|
I wasn't necessarily talking about the differences between Elves and Maiar, when I mentioned that earlier it was just a passing thought, but more about what Boromir said about the differences. The one ring is, like he said, very deceitful. The elven rings, on the other hand, just kept back the weariness of time and gave their owners elemental powers of some kind. I don't think this is really any more "genuine" or "real" than the power of the one ring, but then again the Elves learned to make the rings from Sauron.
__________________
If you would convince a man that he does wrong, do right. Men will believe what they see.~Henry David Thoreau |
12-22-2004, 01:36 PM | #8 |
Pilgrim Soul
Join Date: May 2004
Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle...
Posts: 9,458
|
There certainly seems to be a theme of personal power being "decanted " into objects or expended. It clearly isn't a constant, inexhaustible source. Sauron needs a long time to recover his strength after being overthrown, Gandalf's energy is depleted by his initial struggle with the Balrog at the Chamber of Marzarbul. However since Sauron never touched the three rings it must surelyhave been Elvish power vested in them? But whose? Celebrimbor as grandson of Feanor would not be least of the Noldor in power or skill but had he enough to strengthen Elrond, Galadriel and Gandalf as much as the Three rings seem to have done?
__________________
“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace |
12-22-2004, 04:21 PM | #9 | |
Wight
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 126
|
An interesting point and I should point out that since Celebrimbor was born in Middle Earth (at least I think he was since he was not mentioned in the Sil until long after the Noldor returned in exile) he did not have as much power as he would have had if he beheld the light of the two trees. But I am reminded of a quote by Galadriel, later in the same conversation as the quote that starts of this thread she says,
Quote:
I also remember hearing somewhere that Vilya is the greatest elven ring, I would assume that this means that it amplifies the the power of its user more than the others. Consequently, Elrond is probably nearly as powerful as Galadriel even though she would have the greater personal power. Gandalf of course is far more powerful but he does not use all of it.
__________________
If you would convince a man that he does wrong, do right. Men will believe what they see.~Henry David Thoreau |
|
12-22-2004, 08:45 PM | #10 | |||
Corpus Cacophonous
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: A green and pleasant land
Posts: 8,390
|
And that's magic (with apologies to Paul Daniels)
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind! |
|||
12-23-2004, 01:53 AM | #11 |
Wight
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 126
|
Magic, I believe, refers always to those things that the speaker does not understand. Therefore the word is used for many different things that are not really related at all. Here I will describe several different forms of "magic" as I see them.
Dwarf: the Dwarves are said to use magic especially when making secret doors. I think that Dwarf magic is nothing more than a type of technology as Mithalwen said earlier. Ents: the drink that Treebeard gave the hobbits could be said to be magical, but it seems only natural that "tree people" would have such drinks. Elves: they seem to have great skill in making things: the cloaks, the gems of the Noldor, the Ships of the Teleri, and the Palántiri stones for example. Those Elves who beheld the light of the two trees also had a power within them that repelled evil. Also they could sing songs of power, more on this in a minute. Tom Bombadil: Tom was one with the land he inhabited, it's life was his. He was master of everything that dwelled in said land and everything he commanded happened. Valar/Maiar: they shaped the world and their power flowed in every inch of it. Therefore they could, to some extent (depending on their personal power), command the matter of the world. They also sang songs of power. Music and Magic: Although I can not claim to fully understand how this worked, music had power in Tolkiens world. The foundation of the world was the music of the Ainur, and Sauron had a contest with Finrod using songs of power. And Tom Bombadil used songs of a sort to. There were other examples of course but you get the idea. This is not a complete list by any means (and you could probably have an entire thread for each type of magic and how they worked) but I was just trying to get the point across that what is referred to as "magic" is not one thing but many different things. Also, I think that the different kinds of "magic" could be learned by the other races, so that "Dwarf Magic" could be learned by Elves for example. However there are exeptions to this, Tom Bombadil for example. Also there are some things that the Ainur could do that lesser beings could not because they don't have the power required.
__________________
If you would convince a man that he does wrong, do right. Men will believe what they see.~Henry David Thoreau Last edited by Neithan; 12-23-2004 at 11:57 AM. |
12-23-2004, 02:14 PM | #12 |
Animated Skeleton
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Lothlorien
Posts: 48
|
I agree with yo on that one. Magic has more to do with the things that they do not inderstand. With technology they can see how ot works even if they do not like it. Magic is different because they have no idea how it works and can never imagaine themselves being able to do the sam thing themselves.
__________________
Yrch! |
12-28-2004, 02:24 PM | #13 | |
Wight
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Mordor
Posts: 150
|
Quote:
__________________
I am Annatar, the Lord of Gifts. |
|
12-28-2004, 03:54 PM | #14 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Bag-End, Under-Hill, Hobbiton-across-the Water
Posts: 606
|
Curse of Mandos? What curse was that? I have forgotten.
I know not if this helps but while Vilya was "mightiest of the three" Nenya was known as the "Principle" ring. I that that means it was a sort of "leader" among the Three.
__________________
"I'm your huckleberry....that's just my game." |
12-28-2004, 03:57 PM | #15 |
Laconic Loreman
|
It's not clear which was the mightiest of the three. LOTR says Vilya, the Sil says Nenya, Lost tales says Narya. Unless Tolkien specifies in one of his letters, which I have not read, which one he means to be the mightiest.
Or... By saying all three are the mightiest maybe they are all equal? |
|
|