Have you no pride?

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

What did you glean about the attribute of pride in the books? It is often used in a negative light. For example, Boromir spoke rashly at the Council of Elrond because he was so proud of himself, his family and his country. On the battlefield, warriors will act recklessly out of pride. I think it was Feanor who refused to back down from confrontation (with Fingolfin?) because his pride spurred him on. The word 'pride' is sometimes used in partnership with a word such as 'wrath' which further emphasises the negativity of its use.

What is Tolkien saying here? Is pride a bad thing? Surely this cannot be the case. Aragorn needed pride in himself to lead the Free Peoples in their struggle. Or am I confusing pride and confidence here? Are the two terms intrinsically linked?

Perhaps it is too much pride that is bad. Saruman was exceedingly mighty on Middle-earth and was just in considering himself so. However, once he became too big for his boots, so to speak, he became a terrible caricature of himself. His pride had overrun his past self.

So are we talking about degrees of pride here? A little is good and healthy, but too much is poisonous. How easy is it to judge what is too much? Surely we can subconsciously become someone who has too much pride. There is a fine line to balance upon.

Perhaps to have no pride is the answer. But maybe then only when no-one else has any either. This is impractical. To assure that this theory would work is to ask every person in the world to let go of their pride simultaneously, and that will not happen. So if a few people decide to let go of their pride, they will be taken advantage of.

What do you think? Does Tolkien see pride as a bad thing? Does he make sense?

[Boromir88]

Pride is one of the seven deadly sins. You might take interest in viewing these two threads, pride is briefly talked about...

Seven deadly sins~Squatter of Amon Rhun

7 Deadly sins vs. 7 Heavenly virtues~Boromir88

The way I view it is there is pride and arrogance. I think one can have a certain amount of pride in them, it's a good trait to have. Then there's arrogance when you are just so full of yourselves. Of course many people associate Boromir with this trait. I think he is more "proud" then the other members, and in the end it very well could cost him.

However, a lot of people think just because he brags about Minas Tirith, means he's arrogant, talking as if Minas Tirith is the best. I don't view that as any different then me saying the US is the best place to live, it's just patriotic. Surely people from Germany, France, Czech Republic...etc will disagree, but it's a matter of patriotism.

It is said that patriotism was a reason for WW1. Everyone was so proud in their nation as being the best, being better then everyone else, they got into this arms race competition. So, I can see how Tolkien would look down on pride, since it is said to be one of the causes of WW1. For the time he was living in, I think it was common for people to look down on pride.

I hope that made sense .

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Thank you for linking to those threads, Boro. I had seen them before but 'twas useful to see them again.

Are you supposing that pride, then, is a good attribute, but that it is unfortunately joined at the hip with arrogance? If we cannot have one without the other then surely the one is just as bad as the other.

I must confess that I know nothing at all about Tolkien's religion. However, it appears to me as if he places an almost contradictory quality onto the notion of pride, perhaps that it is both good and bad. Is there a solution to this problem? Is it a problem?

[Sapphire_Flame]

There are three different kinds of pride, as I see it. Which one is possessed or displayed by an individual can give great insight to the person's character.

There is Arrogance-Pride, which is the negative connotation. This is the kind of pride associated with hard-heartedness and stubbornness. If you are lifted up in the pride of your heart, you are unwilling to accept other points of view or to negotiate on any point. This is, seemingly, what is seen frequently in Boromir, Denethor, and Saruman. They are always right and good, and anyone who even hints that they think otherwise are seen as insurgents. I think this is more of a trait of Saruman (and possibly Morgoth) than the men of Gondor.

Confidence-Pride is what is frequently associated with Aragorn. This kind of pride is more of a personal support; if you have confidence in your own abilities it could be interpreted as pride. But, unless you are absolutely unwilling to compromise your position or plans, this is a more positive sort of pride.

Pleased-Pride is pride in an accomplishment. Consider the variation on "I'm proud of him/her/you" that is used frequently in religious fora:

"...in whom I am well pleased..."

For examples of the above, I would give both Saruman and Feanor for Arrogance-Pride, for obvious reasons. In their refusal to compromise their own (flawed) ideals, they caused the pain and death of thousands, all for the protection of their own egos. When pride is taken to this extent, in whatever form, it must be seen as a negative trait.

I think that both Aragorn and Boromir fall under Confidence-Pride. Boromir is often seen as an arrogant individual, which I don't believe he is. He is proud, assuredly, but not to the point of being unbending. He does follow Aragorn, and ultimately recognizes Aragorn's right to the throne of Gondor. Had he been as arrogant as people claim he is, he would have refused to follow Aragorn at all; he would have set himself up as the leader of the Fellowship after Gandalf's fall, and the Quest would have gone painfully awry.

Abedithon le,

~ Saphy ~

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

So you think that the term 'pride' is used in different contexts. Fair enough, is then the original question (did I have an original question, or was it just a bundle of gibberish?) reducible to confusions in our language-game? (I'm going to read some Wittgenstein!)

This seems odd. It renders a word that is apparently quite important to Tolkien into a vague expression. I'm not sure I could accept this. Is pride not a single, definable thing?





*If 'definable' is not a word............it is now!*

[Lalwendë]

To have some pride is important, to have pride in yourself enables you to assert yourself in difficult situations, it enables you to achieve goals, and to maintain your own sense of self. And when we say our pride has been hurt, then we mean our ego or sense of self has been hurt. But not all pride is necessarily good, and pride can be a very fragile thing.

Aragorn has pride - it always interests me how close his name is to the word arrogant - yet this is counterbalanced with humility. He is proud enough to realise his role and take control of situations yet not so proud that he cannot become friends with humble hobbits.

I'll use Denethor as an example of 'pride gone bad'. Where pride goes wrong is often in the case of stubbornness - where someone insists their way is the right way, as with Denethor. It can also go wrong when it leads us to taking risks, again with Denethor when he uses the Palantir. It can also lead us to be too proud of our achievements; this can be seen in Denethor's excess of pride in breeding a son like Boromir, which ultimately has bad effects for his son.

To have no pride at all would be difficult, as our sense of self would want to assert itself, but it is possible. But to be able to drop our pride is essential - as seen in the tragic consequences of Eol and Turgon's confrontation, if we can't back down or compromise, we've had it.

*If 'definable' is not a word............it is now!*

Ever considered a career in the civil service? Making up words is a highly sought after skill. You'd go down a storm in a strategic role...

[Aiwendil]

Sapphire_Flame wrote:

There is Arrogance-Pride, which is the negative connotation. This is the kind of pride associated with hard-heartedness and stubbornness. If you are lifted up in the pride of your heart, you are unwilling to accept other points of view or to negotiate on any point. This is, seemingly, what is seen frequently in Boromir, Denethor, and Saruman. They are always right and good, and anyone who even hints that they think otherwise are seen as insurgents. I think this is more of a trait of Saruman (and possibly Morgoth) than the men of Gondor.

There certainly is some connection between pride and arrogance. But I think there is a further distinction to be made here. Saruman (and probably Sauron and Morgoth, for that matter) had a kind of selfish pride. This is the sort that leads to the attitude that one is better or more important than others, and leads to selfish actions. Boromir, I would say, had a bit of this sort, insofar at least as he thought that the Stewards were now by right the rulers of Gondor (and this depends on how one reads Boromir's character). Something of the same thing can certainly be seen in many other characters - notably Feanor.

But there is a sort of pride that is also negative but that is not selfish. I am thinking here first of all of Turin. His pride was not selfish. He was in fact very easily moved to pity others, and nearly all his deeds were motivated by the desire to aid others. His fault is not one of selfishness or even really of arrogance (though it depends on exactly how one takes that word). Rather, it was "over-boldness" - he was too confident of his own ability and too reluctant to accept aid or to alter his counsel at the urging of others. This is something like your "confidence-pride", but I don't think it's quite identical. One can be proud and confident and yet be willing to accept good advice.

Of course, there's a reason all these things are collectively known by a single term. They are all related, and the lines between them often blur. Boromir had a certain amount of arrogance-pride, I think, but also a certain over-boldness. Feanor too certainly suffered from over-boldness.

[SamwiseGamgee]

It is interesting that when one turns to the dictionary the definition of pride given is:

pride n. too high an opinion of oneself; inordinate self-esteem; worthy self-esteem; feeling of elation or great satisfaction; something causing this- v. refl. take pride

interesting because it gives no clear cut answer, and in fact covers all the aspects that have been noted above.

One thing which would be interesting: to see would be just how many times Tolkien described his heroes as proud. I have a sneaking suspicion that the good Professor probably never used the term in an explicitly positive manner. Now, this may seem like a bold statement, but let me explain myself.

Eomer , you earlier referred to Tolkien's religion. As a devout Catholic, pride would have been a selfish trait, and as Boromir88 ably pointed out, it was one of the seven deadly sins. I therefore am drawn to the conclusion that Tolkien would have sub-consciously had no option but to use the term negatively due to his upbringing. (Which in itself raises a debate as regards relativism, but that's another thread entirely! )

Look at Frodo: at which point in the books could you describe him as proud? I'd submit at no point whatsoever, other than perhaps when The Ring overpowered him, and it exaggerated his sense of pride- increasing his own self-confidence to ridiculous levels, but I personally think that that isn't really his pride which is being warped, it is just his self-confidence, and those are, I would suggest, two different things.

Also, Eomer, your question as to whether pride and arrogance are intrinsically linked. I would say no in the normal sphere of language, but there is a possibility that they may be in the works of Tolkien. Arrogance has an edge of aggression to it, and self-esteem beyond even excess. There's an air of conceitedness to arrogance. Agressive conceit, perhaps. Now, in the normal world you could call someone proud, but it would not necessarily lead to the conclusion that they were arrogant. However, in Tolkien I think the two may be inextricable. On the premiss of above, I submit that those who may have been described as proud (Saruman, Denethor etc.) were also arrogant. After all, it takes a certain kind of mindset to honestly believe you can take on Sauron and win, no sweat.

Well, I've rambled on a bit, but I hope I've said something at least a little worthwhile.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I hesitate to call the attribute of pride a necessary evil, but this is possibly what I'm getting at. Can we imagine a situation where no hero had pride? Would this make good and bad deeds impossible?

Perhaps the solution is a reply to whoever compiled the 7 deadly sins. Did you sir, use the term 'pride' in a vague sense? Because this discussion seems to be leaning in favour of pride as necessary.

[SamwiseGamgee]

Yes, Eomer, I think it is possible that heroes can work without pride. A hero can be motivated by many things other than pride and that can be to the exclusion of pride.

I think, though, that the pride I'm referring to above is self-pride, or that 'inordinate self-esteem' found in the dictionary. It is perhaps, as you suggested, Eomer, no more than a trick of our language, though, that I make this distinction. I have- unbelievably- just had a look through the King James Version Concordance, and every instance of the word pride or proud etc is negative. As an example:

"God resisteth the proud..." Jas 4:6

I'm not entirely sure that pride hasn't developed in our language to in fact include aspects it did not originally encompass. For example, pride in one's country is patriotism, not pride. It is a slackness of language today that we have allowed ourselves to simply say it's pride- because it's not.

[Lhunardawen]

All things in excess are bad. Too much pride is the root of all evil. It was excessive pride that caused Lucifer's downfall-- he took too much pride in his beauty and power, being one of the, if not the sole, highest angels. He thought he could overthrow God and rule all creation in His stead, so he took one-third of the angels and led a rebellion against God. But of course, no one could defeat the Creator of all things, so Lucifer and his angels were thrown from heaven and are now trying to seduce people to evil.

Sounds familiar? How about Morgoth? He was also chosen by Eru to be the most powerful of the Ainur, and then what? He tried to form his own chorale to rival that of Eru, but Eru's voice was more beautiful and dreadful and powerful, so Morgoth lost the Ainulindale Singing Competition (very loose translation...very loose).

See the pattern? All of the Middle-Earth characters you have previously mentioned have been bestowed with talents and strengths to die for; it is then up to them to use these gifts as they will. Will they rely solely on themselves and refuse others' aid? Will they try to grasp more than what they know is good for them? Will they seek dominion over those they deem weaker, though they know they should not? All these and more are manifestations of too much pride over what people are gifted with...which in the end will be harmful to their very selves.

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

This is simple enough;

Confidence is in the middle of a teeter-totter, pride is on one end, and modesty / humbleness is on the other.

Balancing it in the middle is tricky - it swings one way or another a lot, but as long as neither end hits the ground, things should be okay.

You'll have to forgive my elementary school playground description for it, but it was the simplest thing I could think of off the top of my head. Possibly over-simple. But, it works.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Keeper, are you saying that pride and modesty are bad things in themselves?

[Boromir88]

I was going to start a thread on this topic, but I think it fits well under pride, so I'll just talk about it here. Patriotism- pride for one's country. Patriotism is on many levels, the same way pride is, there's a good side to pride, and a bad side. I think it's good to be proud of one's country, that can definately be a good thing, but many country's (especially WW1 and WW2) have gone to war because of patriotism. Thinking their country was the mightier then everyone else, leading to the arm's race, and mass build up of guns, weapons...etc. Patriotism is another trait the Boromir seems to represent, as he's always talking about the "Men of Minas Tirith," and the "Men from my country."

[Fingolfin II]

Boro said:

Patriotism is another trait the Boromir seems to represent, as he's always talking about the "Men of Minas Tirith," and the "Men from my country."

True, but Aragorn also bandied his patriotism around a lot- the Dunedain, his heritage, Rangers of the North etc. Don't forget the incident with Hama at the doors of Meduseld- 'Death shall come to any man who draws Elendil's sword, save Elendil's heir'. So, as you said, patriotism is another type of pride.

This leads me to ask another question; how much pride is too much? As already illustrated in this thread, you need a certain amount of pride to have confidence in yourself and to accomplish things (e.g. Aragorn), yet too much pride and overconfidence in one's abilites can corrupt and bias decisions negatively (e.g. Denethor).

Humility is an important attribute in LotR. Aragorn possessed it and therefore his pride was counterbalanced, as Lhunardarwen said. Denethor on the other hand may have started off humble, yet he became more proud and this ultimately lead him to disaster. His pride led him to enforce his will on others, such as his Council and Faramir, and therefore, I believe that too much pride is bad (duh) and Tolkien used it as an example of one of the 7 Deadly Sins in LotR as a measure against humility.

[Lhunardawen]

Originally Posted by Fingolfin II

This leads me to ask another question; how much pride is too much?

I've been thinking...and I realized all pride is bad. The problem lies in the terminologies. There's pride in yourself, we call that self-confidence (and the feeling of achievement). There's pride in your country, that's patriotism. But both of this is "pride" in substantial amounts. I think pride is too much self-confidence, too much patriotism. Pride is the excess of these supposedly positive attitudes. That makes it bad in itself. And arrogance is a manifestation of pride, among others.

But English really is a confusing language...

[SamwiseGamgee]

Lhunardawen, I agree with you. Pride is an excess.

pride n. too high an opinion of oneself; inordinate self-esteem

.

[Boromir88]

Lhun- So you are saying there is no "good pride," that self-confidence and pride are two seperate things, similar, yet seperate? A nice thought, that I never considered before, and I think Samwise's definition supports that .

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I am proud of the fact that I helped an old lady across the street today. Is this, then, a nonsensical statement? Is it not pride that I am feeling here? Because pride (in Lhuna and Samwise's sense) would wrap up this scenario in a bundle of contradiction.

There are echoes of Kant's moral theory here, that we should not feel too pleased with ourselves for doing things that are right and good and necessary anyway.

[Boromir88]

I am proud of the fact that I helped an old lady across the street today. Is this, then, a nonsensical statement?

I think it comes down to the question of whether one believes that we should be proud about doing the "right" thing or not? This is a question that I often hear, is ok we did the "right" thing, but should we be proud of that? Since it was the right thing to do, we shouldn't be proud about it. For me, personally, I say you need to feel good about yourself, if you help someone feel proud about that, but others believe that since it actually was the "right" thing to do, then that means you shouldn't be proud. If that makes any sense at all.

I think this is one of the many topics that can't be answered, but it's fun to debate, and weigh in on other's views . Bottom line is I don't think anything in this thread is fully "right," or fully "wrong," just a matter of different opinions.

[Lhunardawen]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

I am proud of the fact that I helped an old lady across the street today. Is this, then, a nonsensical statement? Is it not pride that I am feeling here? Because pride (in Lhuna and Samwise's sense) would wrap up this scenario in a bundle of contradiction.

Maybe you're not proud...just well-pleased. But you're right, I too have experienced being proud of doing something right. But I know it's pride when I feel the need to tell others about the good thing I've done. If not, I'm just pleased with myself. But I'm proud, more often than not.

[SamwiseGamgee]

I don't think you should be proud, Eomer. Now I'm not as familiar with Kant as you will be- though I have heard he was a very heavy drinker- Horsemaster, but I think I'm possibly just restating what Emmanuel said when I say that you should not be proud of doing something which you are obliged to do for the greater good of our society's moral fibre.

Now, Eomer, had you said: 'I am proud of The Warg and Warg Rider Appreciation Thread, that would have been a different story altogether!

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

As we all know Samwise, The Warg and Warg Rider Appreciation Thread transcends debate, and thus cannot be used as an example in this thread.

But Boromir's thought is interesting. Are there questions in this thread that cannot be answered? Begging your pardon Sir, but that seems like a slightly defeatist attitude to me.

[Bungo Baggins]

I think Tolkien's deep-rooted Catholicism was the reason he saw great pride motivated by power as the beginning of one's downfall. He also knew enough about myths and religions to know pride is always evident before one falls: In Christianity, pride is often regarded as the first step to the fall and rebellion against God. In Buddhism, grasping after the self and the sense of ego is the chief of all cravings and the deepest root of ignorance. In the Indic religions pride, like ignorance, is a fetter that binds humans to the wheel of rebirth.

I think he also realized motives were key in whetherour pride corrupts us or not. Saruman, Sauron and Morgoth all were power hungry and possessed great pride and all paid the price. Aragorn had some pride for sure, but he was motivated by helping Frodo in his quest to destroy the ring.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Ok, so if pride is bad then it is right that no hero who is doing good should have pride, yes? I cannot find anything which tells of Aragorn as being proud. Are, then, the heroes of the books without pride?


*Please excuse the use of the word 'hero', I realise that heroes can be flawed.*

[Boromir88]

This might help a bit Eomer. In the King of the Golden Hall, where Hama asks Aragorn to lay down Anduril....

"It is the will of Theoden," said Hama.

"It is not clear to me that the will of Theoden son of Thengel, even though he be lord of the Mark, should prevail over the will of Aragorn son of Arathorn, Elendil's heir in Gondor."

"This is the house of Theoden, not of Aragorn, even were he King of Gondor in the seat of Denethor," said Hama, stepping swiftly before the doors and barring the way. His sword was now in his hand and the point towards the strangers.

"This is idle talk," said Gandalf. "Needless is Theoden's demands, but it is useless to refuse. A king will have his way in his own hall, be it folly or wisdom."

Here Aragorn is trying to inforce power that he doesn't even have yet. He's not even King of Gondor yet, and he's trying to "override" Theoden's orders. Grant it Theoden's orders are petty, but Aragorn is simply saying "I King of Gondor (although he isn't yet) say I have more power then Theoden, in his own country."
I brought this up in another thread, and as someone points out, Aragorn shows his empire building desires. Like he wants to control both Gondor and Rohan, and he's trying to do it here with power he doesn't have. Lucky Gandalf is there, and GO HAMA! for standing your ground. (I never understood why PJ killed him off in the Warg scene).

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I never understood that entire scene Boro.

Anyhow, this particular scene does not state that 'Gorn was proud, merely that he was a bit of a petulant so-and-so.


*In case anyone is wondering why we are debating this (I don't think I made it clear earlier), we are trying to find concrete proof that Aragorn had pride, rather than just presupposing it.*

[Garulf]

In TTT "The Riders of Rohan" Aragorn describes the Rohirrim to Legolas and Gimli saying:

"They are proud and willful (sp?), but they are true-hearted..."

Aragorn seems to treat pride as a vice, balanced by the fact that they are honest (as if to say that their pride is forgiven by their being "true-hearted"). However in many instances I remember statues of kings described as proud figures. I guess it all depends on perspective.