Opinions on Boromir

Hello again! Of course I wouldn't mind clarifying what I meant in my last post although I fear my limited capacity of expressing myself in english won't give the idea. First one thing: I didn't mean that Tolkien drew Boromir poorly. Not at all. He drew him wonderfully. I don't think that Tolkien hated Boromir just the way Conan Dyle hated Sherlock Holmes. I just think Boromir's role in the fellowship was the most ungrateful one. You can understand this from many small things and details which I cannot report here now. But you all must have realized that in the fellowship people look at Boromir often with almost hostile like eyes. This because he's the one that is less easily "tamed" by the authority of the leader (Gandlaf) and his right arm (Aragorn). He, shining in a magnificent dignity of the noblest of the humans, cannot yet keep himself from expressing his opinions, discussing the future and the path they're choosing. He cannot just lower his head and follow because he's genuine in his feelings. He sort of get scolded often for "not behaving" so to say, and almost never the author exalts his qualities (but for his tragic death...). If you think well, he's never really told plainly why his idea of how to use the Ring against the Dark Lord is wrong. They limit themselves to sort of "...your mind cannot understand this. It's beyond your capacity...". I don't blame him for thinking that this doesn't suffice and that this is not enough to make me change my mind. And who can blame him for trying to persuade the rest of the fellowship from taking a different decision about the Ring ? Who can blame him for proudly (but with extreme dignity and even humbleness, I'd dare say) point out that it was Gondor, at the cost of many human lives, that defended all the rest of the Middle Earth from the close menace of Sauron. How long have they fought without any direct help ? How longer could he ever think Minas Tirith might resist against the horde of evil ? We readers all know that the good solution is destroying the ring on Mt. Doom but think of his present situation at the time of the story. And also one very important thing: I spoke of good solution but I'd better say the least bad. Think about the consequences that the world face after the success of the mission. How much Middle Earth withered!! The elves leave the forest, the rings lose their powers because of the loss of the "one"...there is a general feeling that the quality of the living will be much lower now that everything is over. Even on the Shire where Saruman easily succeded deceiving the hobbits, things didn't magically become perfect as the ring was destroyed (more the opposite, we can say). Well...I don't know if I could explain something more with these lines or if I could do it better but I do hope so. Regards to you all...

One more thing, Aralithiel. Before I forget...I think that after all we can say Frodo failed. You speak about iron will about him but I tell you he lost at the temptation more than once and by pure luck the mission could be considered succesful. If it was not for Smeagol desperate, improbable (but just at *that* time it had to happen ? It seemed to me a bit forced in...) attack and then his goofy way of falling into Mt. Doom, we'd have a new servant of the Dark Lord. The first hobbit to have this honour. Frodo seems to realize this himself as he tries to give away the ring to Gandalf first and Galadriel then (and he would have given it to Aragorn, if he only asked for it...But *not* to "simple" Boromir). And if it was not for Sam, would have he ever reached that far ? The whole fellowship worked around him for him. He was the champion everybody made big sacrifices for. Sam above all, his morbid devotion making me wonder many times if it was love and not just friendship what he was really feeling for Frodo (there are body gestures and kindnesses that make him look more like a caring lover than a "simple" friend). This is of course just my opinion. Although I loved the LotR and read it twice, I must say I have a very bad memory plus I have read it translated of course in my language (italian) so that I might have misinterpret the real messages of the author. Regards to you all...

[Saxony Tarn]

Greetings to all my fellow Bor' fans!

|_|) <-- a round for all, fill w/ your favorite virtual beverage

alas that i seem to have come to this thread so late -- but i gave a speech on Bor's role in LOTR to my Toastmasters club last year based on these very sentiments. i set out to prove that he qualified as a classic Tragic Hero. (unfortunately i had only 15 minutes to make my point and i needed 20, but i digress) Elves & Dwarves & Wizards & Kings will all vanish when the lights go up, but the theater is filled with the folk of Gondor (and Rohan) We have grown up with Boromir and he is us.

i see plenty of interesting perspectives in here (especially you, Salk, you have made some very intriguing observations, and Cimmerian, it's nice to see your sig in a thread again, by Crom!) In particular re: the notion of Boromir being portrayed unsympathetically, there's some of that going on in the Far' or Bor' thread as well. And me, i don't buy the whole "Blood of Numenor" concept either, but that's just a hardcore RPG gamer talking (and a character in a work in progress saying, "the only way I would expect you not to have this Talent, B., is if you were not in fact D.'s son... however, since I see no evidence for that...")

But yes, i do think (and have thought since the animated movie that went from the Shire to Helm's Deep came out) that Bor' didn't get enough respect. (also have to consider what was going on outside his door when T. was writing this as well -- lots of perfectly well-meaning individuals making very hard choices between two or more evils. i like to think Tolkien was using B. to make a point about real live folks in the military & diplomatic arenas at the time as well!)

s.t.

BTW E.T., that is a fine picture of milord of Gondor indeed. Click on that avatar pic, yes that is "soft sculpture" Boromir complete with gear and chainmail (and Horn of Gondor with real Horn, not pictured as that photo was taken before i'd finished his surcoat, made the accessories or found the right scale letter-opener for sword.) There really ought to be a file of him here at the Downs under Fan Art, but i can't find a large enough model Elven Boat... (Maybe i'll just stand him up on a doll stand and take a couple shots...)

[ February 26, 2003: Message edited by: Saxony Tarn ]

[Lyta_Underhill]

I LOVE this place! I have really been enjoying the thoughtful posts on Boromir's character!

Who was it that asked "Where are all the Boromir haters?" Well, I have been a Boromir hater, but now it is more pity than hate. I cannot agree either that I can identify with Boromir as a human; every time I think of having the Ring or using such a dangerous tool even for good, I cringe way deep down. I identify most strongly with Frodo, and I do not believe him to be a hobbit of iron will, just of desperate will and keen sight. He, unlike Boromir, has special insight into the real nature of the Ring, and his knowledge combined with the knowledge also that the Boromirs of the world would never see what he sees, drives him on the Quest. He does not do it for any real noble purpose, but out of sheer evil "hot on his tail." He is strong enough not to give it up to one who does not see, but he is also resentful and cynical because he believe he alone DOES see. He is an unwilling martyr.

Sorry, I know this is a Boromir thread! Anyway, I do believe Boromir to be noble and possessed of a fatal flaw that cannot be said to be an evil thing. He loves his country. He loves Gondor and feels a desperate need to protect it. His psychology is such that, he identifies himself as not only the protector, but the possessor of this treasure, which drives him to do anything at all to protect it. He does not see the line that must be drawn between defense against evil and evil itself, whereas Faramir sees it clearly.

I always railed against Boromir for being blind, not that I could say I would have better sight myself. I just cannot conceive of using evil against evil; it would make me hate myself for even considering such a road. I cannot see eye-to-eye with Boromir's theory that the Ring can be used effectively against Sauron without harm to the user, because I understand implicitly that it cannot be made to do good, no matter the good intentions behind it. I applaud Boromir's outspokenness, but he was told that this Ring could not be wielded by Men, and he in his pride did not believe it.

I no longer hate Boromir for his attack on Frodo and lust for the Ring, because he actually ended up helping Frodo make a decision he feared greatly to make. Boromir's Ring-lust painted such a clear picture in Frodo's mind that I think it contributed greatly to the growing cynicism and despair that finally undid Frodo in the end. For where can one go if one carries the madness of Men with him at all times? The pity I feel for Boromir is a form of this cynicism that laments for the weakness of Men and its inevitability, as it feels the same weakness creeping in the background, waiting to swallow up all hope. If evil holds sway over the strongest Man of Minas Tirith, then how much more so does evil beset the rest of them?

Forgive me, I rant and ramble! Great thread and great thoughts! I can't say I'm the Boromir hater you're looking for, but I have been in the past!

Cheers,
Lyta

[HCIsland]

I've often felt that one of the big differences between Boromir and other members of the Fellowship is one of ego vs. humility. Boromir likely feels he can handle the Ring. He's got the strength to control it. He's wrong of course. His father was much the same in siezing the Palantir. Again he felt he was strong enough to handle it. Faramir on the other hand was under no such illusions and therefore let the Ring go by. He wanted nothing to do with it. Frodo also felt he couldn't handle this burden and would have passed on the Ring if given the opportunity early on. Even Gandalf was humble enough to realize that he had not the strength to manage it. This is in contrast to Saruman who of course felt that controling the Ring (and a Palantir) wouldn't be an issue. I can't remember if it is in Unfinished Tales or Lost Tales, but there is a discription of each of the Istari that came to Middle Earth, the last being Gandalf. In it, Gandalf is certainly described as the most humble of the five, actually being reluctant to go to Middle Earth.

I think Tolkien is trying to tell us something about humility here. It's a very Christian thing.

Just my two cents anyway.

H.C.

This is my take on Boromir. I respected Boromir's character. I think the Fellowship definitley respected him as a man of honor and a valiant warrior. In a way, I think that he represented what Aragorn was afraid of becoming. To not be strong enough and be subdued to the power of the ring. Aragorn fears there is no strength in his blood since Isildur's clutching the ring to his own will many years ago at Mt. Doom. When Boromir tries to take the ring and Frodo runs away, he falls and then he comes to his senses. At least before he dies he does realize that he wasn't himself and tries to apologize to Frodo. too late however. He also died a brave warrior defending the hobbits, Merry and Pippen. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

[Lyta_Underhill]

That is a very good point, HC, and I agree about the others being less likely to believe they were capable of carrying the Ring. And, of Frodo knowing his own unsuitability, it is true, and it is only after Boromir's attack on him that he knows that, even though he does not believe himself strong enough, he is doomed to be the one to carry the burden anyway, strength or no. I think the tragedy is in finding out the depth of the Ring's effects on others and realizing, even though you are not strong enough, you are required to be, thus it is desperation. You're right, it is a very Christian attitude, for only by calling on a higher force or being could one so weak in oneself hope to complete such a task. And Boromir believed more in himself than in the divine, and that was his downfall. Thanks, HC!

Cheers,
Lyta

[GaladrieloftheOlden]

I half agree with Salk. But then, I half don't. O think it was partially that, and partially just the fact that though he had a strong nature, stronger perhaps than many others, he thought himself to be even more. The fact that he over-estimated himself may have been a part of his downfall. (I don't mean being killed by orcs- I think he had very much chance to change that [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] - I mean becoming dominated by the Ring.)

[HCIsland]

I hope this isn't drifting too far from the theme of this thread, but the last post put this thought into my head.

What would Boromir have done if he wasn't killed at Amon Hen?

Perhaps it is a dumb question (feel free to say so) but I guess he would have seperated himself from the rest of the company and eventually found himself hunting for Frodo (for Frodo's own good of course [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ).

H.C.

I am curious to think that with Boromir Tolkien was maybe trying to send an anti-capitalism message. In my opinion Boromir wanted to become a hero that would be remembered in stories for generations to come. He wanted to protect his country, but he also wanted the perks that come with it so to speak. In my mind capitalist typically try to do what is right in there minds but, they also try and become as rich and powerful as possible. Just a thought.

[Ruler of the Frogs]

Probably alot of other people have already said this, but I think Boromir is the realest character in Lord of the Rings. I mean, all the other characters are beleivable, but they're not as real if you know what I mean. They all have an innocence or a surrealness to them, where Boromir just has realism. I think that it's really unfair to think of Boromir as a bad guy, and he happens to be one of my favourite characters, because I can identify with him. If my house was being attacked, and some guy I don't even think is very skilled, has a weapon that might help me and he's going to go destroy it, I think I'd be a bit upset too. I know that I would want the weapon to help my family. Not saying that Boromir should have gotten the ring (because the Ring is evil) but he didn't really understand how evil the Ring was. So it's not his fault. I think he's a good guy deep down, and it's actually really sad how he comes to an end.

[eldomeldo]

I have read the posts about Boromir. It has taken me a long time to feel that Boromir was not really evil. I think Boromir just wanted to do the right thing by his people, he wanted them to have peace. I think at the council of Elrond he was angry, angry because his people kept the lands of the others safe, yet they did not help. Boromir, did not realise the power of the ring to corrupt. Boromir was a realist, his knowledge of Mordor, did not give him hope of getting the ring to mount Doom. He was a very noble man, who's thoughts were for his people, he became corrupted by the desire for the ring, yet when he realised what he had done, he tried to put it right, and that cost him his life.

Agree with Eldomeldo on this. I admit to seeing the movie before reading the book and the book presents Boromir as a much more compelling character. He goes on the quest under the "You are going the same direction we are so why not come along?" words of the others. There is none of that "Gondor will see it done" BS.

He's been nearer Mordor than any other and clearly knows the dangers. Dangers which no one else seems to regard as important. But then again, this might cast him in an unfavorable light in Tolkien's world in some respects. Boromir is as close to an Objectivist as Middle Earth seems to have and we all know that Ayn Rand, the mother of Objectivism, liked industry and progress.

The others are still caught in the world of magic and legend. Boromir is the only realist in the bunch, I believe. He has also seen the despair of the people of Gondor and Minas Tirith first hand. He knows the hell that Gondor has become and it appears that there are none sympathetic to it. Perhaps any help, aside from Rohan, decided not to help until the target of their desire was soft and ripe enough for easy plucking.

Conspiracy Theorist believes that getting Boromir out in the wilds was the final step in "softening the target". Minas Tirith and Gondor were desparing and would grab onto any hope for salvation. Boromir could have been allowed to live but that would have led to split loyalties in the White City. And that would not have made for pretty history. [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

[Cibbwin]

Boromir is my favorite character, and I think the movie did him justice very well. Sean Bean WAS Boromir, and I Love the scene in Lorien, when he's talking about his father's rule and Minas Tirith. Perfect Boromir personality.

Now that that's out of the way... I see Boromir as a noble, charismatic, and benevolent person. A bit impatient and rash sometimes, but we all are! He's, as everyone said, a perfect human. And Aragorn in the books was too perfect (Thats why I love the movies Aragorn so much). What I'm trying to say? He was tempted and succumbed to the ring. Yet he redeemed himself. He died defending Merry and Pippin. And even though he thought it ridiculous for a hobbit to bear the ring (honestly, would YOU want someone like Lotho, his wife or his son bearing the ring?), he still cared deeply for them, as it is obvious. He's the perfect human, one we can all relate to. And I would be honored to have him as a ruler.

[Morwen Tindomerel]

When Gandalf refuses the Ring he tells Frodo that it would use his compassion against him - his 'desire for the strength to do good'. In other words the Ring might corrupt him through one of his greatest virtues.

This is exactly what happened to Boromir, the Ring finally got to him through his love for his people and need to protect them, he too 'desired the strength to do good'. The Ring tried to use one of his noblest qualities to ruin him - and failed.

Never forget Boromir threw off the Ring's influence alone and unaided, 'few have won such a victory' as Aragorn tells him. Even Bilbo needed Gandalf's help to give up the Ring. It has always seemed to me that a Man who breaks in the face of a temptation that even a Maia feared but manages to turn back to the Light by his own unaided strength is more to be praised then condemned.

Boromir was indeed a great Man, greatest of all in his ability to recognize and submit to a greater one, Aragorn, something his father could never have done. We don't see the inner struggle against pride and ambition he must have experienced but there can be no doubt that his nobler side won that fight, just as in the end it won out over the temptation of the Ring.

[Neferchoirwen]

Hmmm. I confess to being a Boromir hater, once, but this thread made my change my mind (that's the magic of this place...it makes you think). and I was having this idea of Boromir who was somehow enslaved to the ring, and was redeemed at the time of his death. Maybe it's too vague of a topic, or it's that i've yet to read the trilogy again.

The brilliance of characters like Boromir is in their quality to make you think. On the surface, he seems to be the least important, or the least popular in among the nine. But it is later realized that his background and history is as complex as Aragorn's vital calling for Middle Earth.

I guess I fell in love with Boromir as well. His flaws were beautiful, and if he knew of these flaws, he would not have a single ounce of regret conderning them.

[Annunfuiniel]

Now that I think about it: there is some resemblance in Boromir and some prominent Christian figures say (St.) Peter. Let me clarify. I don't mean Boromir was an allegory of Peter but that the way he first turned from the "right path" and fell when he was tempted but then rose again afterwards makes me think of Peter denying Jesus and so becoming the worst traitor but then rising to his later "renown".

I might mention that I'm greatly influenced by E. Auerbach's Mimesis on this occasion. His description of Peter's fate stresses the meaning of the huge breaks: only through his fall, through the humiliation he felt he could rise to the greatness of character which is essential in his later figure. From high through fall back to the glory, you might say. Anyone else see Boromir in this light?

Never forget Boromir threw off the Ring's influence alone and unaided, 'few have won such a victory' as Aragorn tells him. Even Bilbo needed Gandalf's help to give up the Ring.

It's true Boromir eventually overcame the temptation but it's not fair to Bilbo to draw this kind of parallel. Boromir never wore the Ring whereas Bilbo had been influenced by it for 60 years or so. They weren't in any way comparable situation.

[ April 13, 2003: Message edited by: Annunfuiniel ]

[Morwen Tindomerel]

Eventually? Try almost immediately!

True their situations are far from identical but while Bilbo had been carrying the Ring for many years the Ring itself had been actively working on Boromir for some months. In any case it was still an impressive feat - on both their parts.

"Only through his fall, through the humiliation he felt he could rise to the greatness of character which is essential in his later figure. From high through fall back to the glory, you might say. Anyone else see Boromir in this light?"

Yes, I do. Very well put. But I wonder, had he lived would Boromir have been able to forgive himself for his lapse?

[ April 13, 2003: Message edited by: Morwen Tindomerel ]

[The Only Real Estel]

But it was probably easier for Bilbo to resist the temptation of the Ring than it was for Borimir. Borimir had the burning feeling that he must have it, and soon, if we was going to save his people with it. Although Borimir wanted this Ring for glory, Bilbo only wanted to keep his precious trinket. I can easily imagine it being just as hard on Borimir than Bilbo, even though Bilbo had it for 50 or 60 years and Borimir only had the desire of it for four to six months (I do't remember all the exact dates).
After all, as Gandalf said,"Hobbits are made of stronger (or sterner) stuff than meets the eye!"that includes stronger will to resist temptation as well. [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]

[The Only Real Estel]

Rate me by the way!
[img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]

[Morwen Tindomerel]

Smeagol was a Hobbit and he did worse than either Bilbo or Boromir, in fact he didn't put up any resistance at all - much less throw off the Ring's yoke. It would thus be more accurate to say *some* Hobbits have the moral strength to resist the corruptive effects of the Ring for some time, as do some Men not to mention Elves, Maia, etc.

We must also remember the Ring is most tempting to those who already possess power of their own, the greater the power the greater the temptation. Hobbits, having little power, would automatically be less vulnerable.

[Aratlithiel]

One more thing, Aralithiel. Before I forget...I think that after all we can say Frodo failed.

This is a quote from Salk several weeks ago and I apologize for dragging it out now, but it's been bothering me for sometime and I just had to address it.

Salk - I've had discussions with people on this subject many, many times over the years and I feel so strongly about it that some of these discussions have reduced themselves to outright arguements a time or two. I have been Frodo-obsessed since I was ten years old and have come to his defense more times than I care to admit on this matter. My view was always that Frodo held and carried the Ring when It was at the peak of Its power. In addition to Its wear on him physically, emotionally and mentally, he also had to endure a stabbing by a Morgul blade (which even Celebrian could not withstand and had to leave for the West to find healing), an attempted spearing by and orc chieftain and the loss of his father-figure and mentor (Gandalf), the attack from one who was supposed to protect him, the loss of his dearest cousins' company and support, constant pursuit, the sting of Shelob, captivity and whips and finally a trek through a desert with very little sustenance. Through all of this Frodo's resolve remained firm and his will never wavered - until he stood at the Cracks of Doom where the power of the Ring was at its peak at which point who could possibly have withstood this onslaught? Gandalf himself knew that Frodo could not even throw the thing into his fire @ Bag End - do you REALLY think he seriously expected that Frodo could let it go in the end? (Yes, I'm afraid I've been blaming Gandalf all these years.)

That's the arguement that I've been clinging to for years and I still think it's good and valid. However, I have recently been gifted the "Letters" and have found validation in Tolkien's own words. His reasons are quite different from mine, but since he's the master, I'll let him do the talking...

The Quest was bound to fail...

and

...the 'salvation' of the world and Frodo's own 'salvation' is achieved by his previous pity and forgiveness of injury...by a situation created by his forgiveness, he was saved himself and relieved of his burden.
(Letter 181 to Michael Straight, 1956)

and

Frodo deserved all honour because he spent every drop of his power of will and body, and that was sufficient to bring him to the destined point and no further.
(Letter 192 to Amy Ronald, 1956)

Again, I apologize for dragging this into a Boromir thread but it's been bothering me for awhile and I feel so much better now that I have read the Letters. Salk, forgive me if I take Frodo a little too personally, but he's been part of me for mmmph years now and I just hate when anyone thinks of him as a failure.

Excuse me while I go dust off an old Frodo thread...

[ April 22, 2003: Message edited by: Aratlithiel ]

[annuncolloion]

Boromir and Faramir can't really be compared. Boromir was primarily a warrior. And a good one at that. His short-falling (if you can call it one) is that he wasn't as strong minded as others...say, Aragorn. His will was powerful, but not powerful enough to overcome the ring. He is misunderstood.

[Morwen Tindomerel]

I must disagree, it took considerable strength of will to throw off the Ring's spell. IMO he was vulnerable because of his desperation and/or ambition was not tempered, (as with Aragorn and Faramir) by an understanding of the Ring's nature.

And yet Denethor, who surely did have the lore to understand the peril of Ring, was falsely confident of his own power to resist. Boromir is clearly less blameworthy in that respect than his father.

[Mitheithel]

Alright, maybe Boromir didn`t have the best traits of character in the story, but I liked him... He was sort of... human, you know, not some superhero. Had his mistakes. And his horn was cool [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Thinlómien]

Boromir (one of my favorite characters) was certainly not bad or evil. He is the most human in LotR. Nearly all other characters are super-heroes or nearly perfect. Boromir´s a human; he makes mistakes.

I once had a dream about Boromir. He was in Lothlórien, talking with Galadriel. As in the book, Galadriel saw through him. He said: "It´s hard to be the only evil among good people. It's hard to be the only man among women."

At first I nearly laughed at my dream. But then I realized that it described him actually quite well. Boromir was a human among super-humans and he might be consired as evil compared to them. But if he was taken off the book and for example to our world, he would have been considered maybe as a good person.

I had my first touch with LotR when I was six and my father read it aloud to me and my liitle sister. Then, and also much later in the following times I read it, I thought that he was evil and one of the few characters I didn´t like.

Now he´s one of my favorites and I understand him. He´s a tragic character. Quite a change in my attitude towards him? Maybe it's because I´ve now read LotR so many times and understand it better or maybe because I was so small then (around both sides of 10 years) and little children easily think that people are "good" or "bad".

Boromir is lovely and always will be.

[Boromir88]

One little thing I'd like to add, even after getting into an argument with Aragorn, Boromir says...

"We men of Minas Tirith do not abandon our friends in need."

This is a pretty strong testimony of Boromir's "good" nature. Even if he doesn't get his way he still won't abandon his friends .

[King of the North]

I very much agree that the portrayal of Boromir in the movies is far less flattering than that of the books. One of the main things that causes this is the relatively small amount of info given on Boromir's background in the movies. In books one sees another side of Boromir, even though corrupted by the ring he fought on bravely with his comrades. Also he was very seceptable to the ring's corruption. Just take a second and look at the facts: 1st off he is a Man who are less wise than other beings such as elves, 2nd he was raised by his father, Denethor II, who even though was an able ruler instilled later on in his son the importance of the ring, 3rd he did not even want to go to the Council but was forced by his father anyway, and lastly near the end he was convinced that Minas Tirith would fall and in his torment he sought out the ring to save the city. Boromir was a good man and a great fighter. We all must not let that one bump in the road ruin our whole image of this warrior of Gondor. And remember of course remember his heroic and valiant end.

[Boromir88]

Also, everyone boohoo's Faramir, because Denethor favored Boromir (which he did), but Boromir didn't have it so easy either. Denethor put a lot of pressure on Boromir to ensure the safety of Gondor. Boromir was Denethor's last hope in this war, last hope for Gondor. So, when Boromir dies we see Denethor slip drastically down hill.