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10-28-2003, 05:29 PM
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King's Writer
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Fall of Doriath - Outlaws in Menegroth
The title Maédhros gave is not realy fitting for my Version, but here it goes:
Some conventions of my writing: Normal Text is from the basic text that is mentioned above (when I change the basic-Text it will bementioned) Bold Text source information, comments and remarks { } = text that should be deleted [ ] = normalised text <source > = additions with source information example = text inserted for garmatical reason / / = outline expansion The basic text is that of The Tale of the Nauglafring. Since full-text quating is not appropirate any longer, I will only give the starting words of each paragraph of the basic text and all editions or delitions, but not the regular changes. §17 (§293) RD-OM-01 Now therefore did {those}[some] of {Úrin}[Húrin]'s band murmur, and one said to the king: 'Lo, lord, our captain {Úrin}[Húrin], an old man and mad, has departed, but we have no mind to forego our gain.' §18 (§294) Then said {Tinwelint}[Thingol] for neither was he untouched by the golden spell: RD-OM-02 {‘Nay then, know ye not that this gold belongs to the kindred of the Elves in common, for the Rodothlim who won it from the earth long time ago are no more, and no one has especial claim' to so much as a handful save only Úrin by reason of his son Túrin, who slew the Worm, the robber of the Elves; yet Túrin is dead and Úrin will have none of it; and Túrin was my man.’ §19 At those words the outlaws fell into great wrath, until the king said: }‘Get ye now gone, and seek not O foolish ones to quarrel with the Elves of the forest, lest death or the dread enchantments of Valinor find you in the woods. Neither revile ye the name of {Tinwelint}[Thingol] their king, for I will reward you richly enough for your travail and the bringing of the gold. Let each one now approach and take what he may grasp with either hand, and then depart in peace.’ §20 (§295) RD-OM-03 <editorial addition But Asgon rebuked his men and bowing to the king he left Doriath with his men in search for Húrin. But of there further fate or if they ever found him again no tale tells. And about Húrin><Q30{and} some have said, that he cast himself at last into the western sea, and so ended the mightiest of the warriors of mortal Men.> But<TT his words living after him bred estrangement between Elves and Men.> Here I would end the chapter "The Wanderings of Húrin" and start with: RD-OM-04 <WHThe Nauglamír The Necklace if the Dwarves, ‘Sigil Elu-neath’ Necklace of the Woe of Thingol> §21 taken out §22 (§1) Now[ when Húrin and his Band had departed from Menegroth] came {Gwenniel}[Melian] to {Tinwelint}[Thingol] and said: ‘Touch not this gold, for my heart tells me it is trebly cursed. Cursed indeed by the dragon's breath, and cursed by RD-OM-05 {thy}[Orodreth's] lieges' blood that moistens it, and the death of those' they slew; but some more bitter and more binding ill methinks hangs over it that I may not see.’ §23 (§2) Then, remembering the wisdom of {Gwenniel}[Melian] his wife, the king was minded to hearken ... The value of that hoard no man could count, for amid the gold lay many gems, and these were very beautiful to look upon, for RD-OM-06 {the fathers of the Rodothlim}<based on The Flight of the Noldor in Sil77 more than any others of the Exiles> had <the house of Finarfin> brought <thence, memories of the bliss they had forsaken in>{ them out of} Valinor, a portion of that boundless treasury the {Noldoli}[Noldor] had there possessed. §24a (§3) Now as he gazed {Tinwelint}[Thingol] said: ‘How glorious is this treasure! And{ I have not a tithe thereof, and} of the gems of Valinor [I have] none save that Silmaril that Beren won from {Angamandi}[Angband].’ But {Gwenniel}[Melian] who stood by said: ‘And that were worth all that here lies, were it thrice as great.’ §24b (§4) Then arose one from among the company, and that was Ufedhin[.]RD-OM-07 {, a Gnome; ... with the Orcs and soldiers of Melko also.} As he stood in that place the spell of the gold had pierced the heart of Ufedhin more deeply ... might they but save the hoard from ruin.’ §25b (§5) RD-OM-08 {Then looked the king upon the gold and he looked upon Ufedhin, and that Gnome was clad very richly, ... the wayfarer in his halls. }Again looked {Tinwelint}[Thingol] upon the gold, and it shone yet more alluring fair, nor ever had the sparkle of the gems seemed so brilliant, RD-OM-09 <QS36 and the seed of the love of gold that was in his heart was waked to growth>[. And]{ and} Ufedhin said again: ‘Or in what manner, O King, dost thou guard that Silmaril of which all the world hath heard?’ §26 (§6) Now {Gwenniel}[Melian] warded it in a casket of wood bound with iron, and Ufedhin said it was shame so to set a jewel that should not touch aught less worthy than the purest gold. Then was {Tinwelint}[Thingol] abashed, and yielded[. ] RD-OM-10{, and … we take out the rest of this and the next 6 paragraphs until … and all these were so subtly made and so cunningly adorned that Tinwelint was glad beyond the hope of Ufedhin.’} RD-OM-11 <Q36 Wherefore he summoned the greatest of all craftsmen that now were in the western world, since Nargothrond was no more (and Gondolin was not known), the Dwarves of Nogrod{ and Belegost}, that they might fashion the gold and silver and the gems {(for much was yet unwrought) }into countless vessels and fair things{; and a marvellous necklace of great beauty they should make, whereon to hang the Silmaril}. §27 (§7) But the Dwarves coming were stricken at once with the lust and desire of the treasure, and they plotted treachery. They said one to another: 'Is not this wealth as much the right of the Dwarves as of the elvish king, and was it not wrested evilly from Mîm?' Yet also they lusted for the Silmaril.> RD-OM-12 But as yet {the}[their] designs{ of Ufedhin} came to nought, for in no wise would {Tinwelint}[Thingol] suffer {or him or those of} the Nauglath to depart to Nogrod with or without that portion of{ the} unwrought gold{ that yet remained}, and he said: "How shall it be thought that after the weariness of your{ burdened} journeys hither I should let you so soon be gone, to noise the lack of courtesy of {Tinwelint}[Thingol] abroad in Nogrod? Stay now awhile and rest and feast, and afterward shall ye have the gold{ that remains} to work your pleasure on; nor shall aught of help that I or my folk may afford be wanting in your labour, and a reward rich and more than just awaits you at the end." §28a (§8) RD-OM-13 {But they knew nonetheless that they were prisoners, and trying the exits privily found them strongly warded.} Being therefore without counsel they bowed before the king, and the faces of the Dwarf-folk show seldom what they think. Now after a time of rest was that{ last} smithying begun in a deep place of {Tinwelint}[Thingol]'s abode which he caused to be set apart for their uses[.]{, and what their hearts lacked therein fear supplied, and in all that work Ufedhin had a mighty part.} §28b (§9) RD-OM-14 <LT2 – moved only a few paragraphs down Now come the Dwarves{ nonetheless over the bridge and} before the chair of {Tinwelint}[Thingol], and behold, the things of their workmanship they had conveyed thither in silken cloths, and boxes of rare woods carven cunningly. In other wise had {Úrin}[Húrin] haled the treasure thither, and half thereof lay yet in his rude sacks and clumsy chests; yet when the gold was once more revealed, then did a cry of wonder arise, for the things the Nauglath had made were{ more} wondrous{ far than the scanty vessels and the ornaments that the Rodothlim wrought of old}. Cups and goblets did the king behold, ... so cunningly adorned that {Tinwelint}[Thingol] was glad beyond the hope of {Ufedhin}[the Dwarves].> §28c (§10) A golden crown they had made for {Tinwelint}[Thingol], who yet had worn nought but a wreath of scarlet leaves, and a helm too most glorious they had fashioned; and a sword of dwarven steel brought from afar was hilted with bright gold and damascened in gold and silver with strange figurings wherein was pictured clear the wolf-hunt of {Karkaras Knife-fang, father of wolves}[Charcharoth, the Red Maw]. That was a more wonderful sword than any {Tinwelint}[Thingol] had seen before RD-OM-15{, and outshone the sword in Ufedhin's belt the king had coveted. These things wereof Ufedhin's cunning, but}. And the Dwarves had made a coat of linked mail of steel and gold for {Tinwelint}[Thingol], and a belt of gold. Then was the king's heart gladdened, but they said: ‘All is not finished,’ and {Ufedhin}they had made a silver crown for {Gwenniel}[Melian], and{ aided by} the Dwarves had contrived slippers of silver crusted with diamonds, and the silver thereof was fashioned in delicate scales, so that it yielded as soft leather to the foot, and a girdle {he}they had made too of silver blended with pale gold. Yet were those things but a tithe of their works, and no tale tells a full count of them. §28d (§11) Now when all was done and their smithcraft given to the king, then said {Ufedhin}[the Dwarves]: ‘O {Tinwelint}[Thingol], richest of kings, dost thou think these things fair?’ And he said: ‘Yea’; but {Ufedhin}[they] said: ‘Know then that great store ... , the Necklace of the Dwarves.’ §28e (§12) Then{ again} did {Tinwelint}[Thingol] doubt {Ufedhin's}[their] purpose, yet did he yield the boon, an they would suffer him to be present at that smithying. §28f (§13) RD-OM-16 {None are that yet live,' quoth Ailios,' 'who have seen that most glorious thing, save only' Littleheart son of Bronweg, yet are many things told thereof.}[Many things were told of that most glorious thing.] Not only was it wrought with the greatest skill ... , and all its links were twined with baleful thoughts. §28g (§14) Now however did they bear it before the king in its new-gleaming splendour; and then was the joy of {Tinwelint}[Thingol] king of the woodland Elves come to its crowning, and he cast the {Nauglafring}[Nauglamír] about his throat, and straightway the curse of Mîm fell upon him. Then said {Ufedhin}[the Dwarves]: ‘Now, O Lord, that thou art pleased beyond thy hope, perchance thou wilt grant the craftsmen thy kingly reward, and suffer them to depart also in joy to their own lands.’ §28h §15) But {Tinwelint}[Thingol], bewildered by ... , yet would it be small enough, seeing that the labour was of love and {of Ufedhin's}[the] desire that the golden hoard be not cast away and lost. What then do ye wish that I may grant?’ §28i (§16) RD-OM-17 {Then said Ufedhin scornfully: ‘For myself, nothing, O Lord; indeed the guestkindliness of thy halls for seven moons and three is more than I desire.’ }But the Dwarves said: ’This do we ask. For our labours{ during seven moons} each seven jewels of Valinor, and seven robes of magic that only {Gwendelin}[Melian] can weave, and each a sack of gold; but for{ our great labour during}[the] three moons in thy halls unwilling, we ask each three sacks of silver, and each a cup of gold wherein to pledge thy health, O King, and each a fair maiden of the woodland Elves to fare away with us to our homes.’ §28j (§17) Then was King {Tinwelint}[Thingol] wroth indeed, ... undying shame. §28k (§18) RD-OM-18 {Now that demand they had made only by the design of Ufedhin, yet}[Yet] seeing the anger of the king's face they said: ‘Nay, but this is not all[.]{, for in payment of Ufedhin's captivity for seven moons seven stout Elves must come with us and abide seven times seven years among us as bondsmen and menials in our labour.’} RD-OM-18 <Q30 {'}Is not this wealth as much the right of the Dwarves as of the elvish king, and was it not wrested evilly from Mîm?> RD-OM-19 <Sil77 By what right does the Elvenking lay claim to the Nauglamír, that {was}[we] made {by our fathers for}[out of the gold of] Finrod Felagund who is dead? It has come to him but by the hand of Húrin the Man of Dor-lómin, who took it as a thief out of the darkness of Nargothrond.' §28l (§19) But Thingol perceived their hearts, and saw well that desiring the Silmaril they sought but a pretext and fair cloak for their true intent;>{Thereat} and he arose {Tinwelint}[Thingol] from his seat, and calling summoned his weaponed thanes and warriors, that these surrounded the Nauglath{ and those Gnomes}. Then said he:RD-OM-20 { ‘For your insolence each three stripes with stinging withes shall ye receive, and Ufedhin seven, and afterwards will we speak of recompense.’ When this was done, and a flame of bitter vengeance lit in those deep hearts, he said:} ‘Lo, for your labour {of seven months} six pieces of gold and one of silver each shall have, and for your labours in my halls each three pieces of gold and some small gem that I can spare. For your journey hither a great feast shall ye eat and depart with good store against your return, and ere ye go ye shall drink to {Tinwelint}[Thingol] in elfin wine RD-OM-21{; yet, mark ye, for the sustenance of Ufedhin seven idle months about my halls shall ye each pay a piece of gold, and of silver two, for he has not aughth imself and shall not receive since he desires it not, yet methinks he is at the bottom of your arrogance}.’ §29 (§20) Then were the Dwarves paid their reward like common smiths of bronze and iron[.] RD-OM-22{, and constrained to yield once more therefrom payment for Ufedhin - ‘else,’ said the king, ‘never shall ye get him hence.’} Then sat they to a great feast and dissembled their mood; yet at the end the time of their going came, and they drank to {Tinwelint}[Thingol] in elfin wine, but they cursed him in their beards, and {Ufedhin}[some] swallowed not and spat the wine from {his}[their] mouth upon the threshold. The discussion will follow in the next posting. Respectfully Findegil Edited change format. Last edited by Findegil; 07-20-2004 at 01:30 PM. |
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10-29-2003, 05:10 PM
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King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,721
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Now at least to the discussion:
§17 Since we all wished to save Asgon from the cruse of Mîm and I needed a nonhomogeneous group, I changed "those" to "some". §18 I removed Thingols first speech (and the § break). I think it is out of the picture that he claims the Hord so soon after he was scorned with it. To sent the Outlaws away with a share of the treasure that he wished Húrin to take with him fit the later Thingol much better. §20 My addition of Asgons actions is based on nothing, but my feeling what he could have done. It is to risky I think. But as Aiwendil I think we have to finde a way to cut the fight between the outlaws and the Elves of Menegroth. At least my plot does not specify wether the outlaws took a part of the treasure or not and the fate of the outlaws is also left open. The last statment are moved down because I wanted the end of The Wanderings of Húrin here. §21 The mound of Avarice has no function since as jet we have no slain, so the § is taken out. §22 I wanted to keep the blood stained felling of the gold, and since no one in Menegroth had died, I changed the sentence to make Melian refer to the Elves of Nargothrond and their enemies. §23 The simpler change at the end of this § is the one Maedhros has given: Quote:
$25a & b Maedhros toke § 25 from the Q30: Then the enchantment of the accrused ... I felt the need of someone too urge Thingol not to follow Melians device. And since Ufedhin takes that role in the Tale I left him in it in these part. But I removed his strange history. I my version he is simply an Elf of Thingols household. I also removed his role as member of the smithcraft company that wrought the Nauglamír. §26 Maedhros toke this § from the Sil77: In those days the Dwarves ... §27 My first part is equall to Maedhros'. But the second part is missing in his. My plot was that the Dwarves would have taken the gold to Nogrod feigin to work on it there but were not allowed to do so by Thingol, who misstrusted them. $28 Maedhros §28 reads: Quote:
§28b & c The treasure should have more part in the narative. It is in the end the main topic. So, I toke all descriptions together. §28f The direct speech of Ailios has to go ofcourse but the description of the Nauglamír should be included. §28i - §29 I removed Ufedhin from the bargaining and switched his statemens to the Dwarves. Also the two parts of the work 3 month and 7 month is gone. But the invoice of the dwarves is unchanged. Even the maidens. I sticked to that idea remembering Gimli who was over found of Galadriel. The addition from Q30 and the Sil77 bring the Version of the tale into accorde with the description of the Hobbit. Respcetfully Findegil [ November 14, 2003: Message edited by: Findegil ] |
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12-07-2004, 11:53 AM
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King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,721
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This is the first draft of an expansion of the storyline-version. Our basis text is: The History of Middle-Earth; volume 4; The Shaping of Middle-Earth; chapter III: The Quenta Noldorinwa (Q30).
We have three groups of changes: RD-zz: General changes given and discussed in the thread “**Ruin of Doriath - Pre-Revision speculation/proposal thread**”. These changes are taken up here, but they are not indicated by "editorial markers" RD-SL-zz: Changes done to make the storyline fit our understanding developed in the Thread “**Ruin of Doriath - Pre-Revision speculation/proposal thread**”. In that thread I made the mistake to mark them with FD-SL-zz. But the numbers are identical. My apologise if that change does produce a mass now. Some numbers are missing, but that is normal since some of the points of the storyline-discussion did not produce any change in the text. RD-EX-zz For expansions taken from some other source to make the story more detailed. This also includes some changes made in the expansion, which I marked for easier reference. At the beginning we have to create a transition from The Wanderingas of Húrin (WH). Over all the basis text will show trough not to much I think. But we will use it as a leading guideline and any part that is exchanged for some other text should be shown. As before, I start with §266 of WH, which is the last of that text. I have tried to stick to the §-numbering done by Maédhros for his first draft, so that a comparison between that draft #1, my own earlier Version and the current text will be easier. In addition I have numbered the § anew in brackets starting with §267 in continuation of WH and starting over again when we come to the purposed chapter break. If a § of the basic-text is deleted completely it is not numbered. As it has some value as a double-check during my work I will give here in addition to the edited version a clean text version. Some conventions of my writing: Normal Text is from the basic text that is mentioned above (when I change the basic-Text it will be mentioned) Bold Text = source information, comments and remarks { } = text that should be deleted [ ] = normalised text <source > = additions with source information example = text inserted for grammatical reason / / = outline expansion Normally if an inserted text includes the beginning of a new § these is indicated by a missing “>” at the end of the § and a missing “<” at the beginning of the next. But the source information is repeated before each §. But some times the new § was taken as an new add and handled accordingly. Here after is given the Version for the public forum. I have ripped it of some of the textual content in many § by inerting dots instead. These dots conceal only General changes (RD-zz), all other changes are given so that they can (hopefuly) be understood. Quote:
Findegil |
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12-07-2004, 11:25 PM
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The Kinslayer
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Formenos
Posts: 658
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The second bold phrase I added because I thought that it sounded better. Quote:
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"Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy." |
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12-08-2004, 07:52 AM
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King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,721
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§17b those -> many: "those" did in my reading include the complete band, all the men that had followed Húrin to Menegroth. When I remeber rightly we all agreed that there should be at least the possibility of an expaction. That is what I tried to provide with "many".
§23 RD-EX-26 "the most part" -> "a part" was what I wanted, but I failed to recognise my false editing. §28c The change from circlet of scarlet leaves to a real crown is in my view not (only) a sign for the change from a poor woodland king to wealthy owner of a treasure. It is for me also the a sign for the change form a erathbound and just ruler of the woodland folk to a cocky and self-righteous king. Therefore I would include it. Think of Thranduil in the Hobbit. He is dicribed: "If the elf-king had a weakness it was for treasure, especially for silver and white gems; and though his hoard was rich, he ever was eager for more, since he had not yet as great a treasure as other elf-lords of old." If his hoard was rich, he could clearly have worne a crown and wield a silver sceptre, but "On his head was crown of berries and red leaves, for autumn was come again. In the spring he wore a crown of woodland flowers. In his hand he held a craven staff of oak." Maybe he followed Thingols excample in wear as he did in building? §28d "chair" -> "throne": Since any throne is ever also a chair, I would label this change stylistic. The rest of the changes are either typos of mine or things I forgot to incooperat. Either way I will correct them for the next version. Respectfully Findegil |
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12-18-2004, 03:13 PM
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Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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RD-EX-21 Is this necessary? The Turin chapter will surely end as the Narn ends, with the death of Turin and Nienor and the carving of the stone, rather than continuing as TN does to tell of Hurin's subsequent journeys. And post-Lost Tales, the two sections (Wanderings of Hurin and Necklace of the Dwarves) are unified as "The Ruin of Doriath". It's a fairly inconsequential point, though. RD-EX-22 Looks like another minor typo: Quote:
RD-EX-26 I do wonder whether the change of "the most part" to "a part" is necessary. I don't know of any pressing reason that the folk of Nargothrond would not have a great deal of unwrought gold. On the other hand, if we use "a part" then we are on completely safe ground canonically - for it could mean a small part or a large part. And it is a minor change. So I suppose I'll go with it. RD-EX-27 Quote:
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Is it still true that Thingol has no gems of Valinor save the Silmaril? Considering that it is later suggested that there was great trade through Doriath, both with the Feanorians in the east and the people of Fingolfing and Finarfin in the west, this seems doubtful. RD-EX-30 As is my wont, I wonder here about the QS77 addition. But in this case it may indeed provide a necessary reference to the Silmaril. RD-EX-32 Quote:
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RD-EX-35 Shouldn't "Nauglath" become "Naugrim"? Or is "Nauglath" retained as an alternative form? RD-EX-37 About the crown of leaves: I think that, despite Thingol's wealth in the later versions, it is safe to retain the reference here; it is said in the Lay of Leithian recommenced that he wore a crown of leaves. Quote:
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RD-EX-42 "Narogthrim" - is this attested? I cannot recall it. RD-EX-47 Another misplaced apostrophe: Quote:
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12-18-2004, 09:16 PM
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The Kinslayer
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Location: Formenos
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Of the other changes I didn't comment on I'm ok with them.
__________________
"Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy." |
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12-19-2004, 03:43 PM
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Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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RD-SL-10
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12-19-2004, 04:16 PM
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The Kinslayer
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Formenos
Posts: 658
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I think that basically we are done with this part too.
__________________
"Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy." |
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12-19-2004, 04:50 PM
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King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,721
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RD-SL-10:
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RD-EX-21: I don't think that we will have a "Turin chapter". What we will have is the Narn. And WH is in my view a part of it. Thus we would have a chapter break here. But this is clearly open for discussion. RD-EX-26: The change was supposed by Maédhros. And agree with him that it would be starnge for the later Elves of Nargothrond to have a hughe treasure of unwrought gold. As you said your self to skip "the most" is safer. RD-EX-27: Since it might be that we will use the passage from The Annals of Aman in it proper place, I agree that we should follow TN more closly. Since your change does also what Maédhros desiered we will take it. RD-EX-28: Agree, we can not be sure that Thingol has no Gems. But I would like to hold more of the sentence that Maédhros suggested: Quote:
RD-EX-32: Agreed. RD-EX-35: Agreed, my assumption that it was still an valid alternativ profed to be wrong. RD-EX-37: Quote:
RD-EX-39: I agree, and found that we might even save more of the text: Quote:
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All not commented changes and corrcetions are taken up for the next version. Respectfully Findegil Last edited by Findegil; 12-20-2004 at 06:26 AM. Reason: Corrected missing end-of-quote-mark. |
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12-19-2004, 06:22 PM
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Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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RD-EX-21 Yes, the Narn is what I meant by "Turin chapter". I suppose it is a bit long to be called a "chapter". But is "Wanderings" part of it? After TN, every version of the Turin story ends with the disaster in Brethil and the memorial stone. There also ends NE the latter half of the Narn, and I see no indication in XI that "Wanderings" was considered an extension of the Narn. I am inclined to agree with Christopher that "Wanderings" was intended as the beginning of a full tale of the Ruin of Doriath. RD-EX-28 Quote:
RD-EX-37 I still think it would be safer not to make any statement to the effect that the sword was more glorious than any that Thingol had seen. It certainly does seem possible - even probable, perhaps - that this is true (at least in the sense of "more beautiful"), but in view of the later conception of Thingol, I think that the possibility that the statement is contradicted is sufficient to force us to leave it out. RD-EX-40 Again, I'm afraid I still prefer my suggestion. The problem is that we are trying to combine two contradictory stories: 1. Thingol, thinking of the treasure of Glaurung and of the Silmaril, summons the Dwarves to fashion the treasure and to make of it a necklace on which to hang the Silmaril. 2. Thingol summons the Dwarves to fashion the treasure and when the Dwarves show it to him, they suggest that a necklace be made for the Silmaril. The first story is the later one, so we must follow it. But in view of this story, the element of the "second smithying" makes little sense. Why would they wait until after they had shown Thingol some of their work to start on the Nauglamir? And why would they so dramaticly declare to Thingol their intention to do exactly what he had originally bidden them do? RD-EX-42 In TN, Tolkien sometimes calls it "the treasure of Glaurung" and sometimes the "treasure of the Rodothlim". It would be preferable to keep the distinction if possible (just as in FoG we endeavoured to retain the difference between "Noldo" and "Gnome"). We could change it to "the gold of Nargothrond" here. |
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12-19-2004, 08:30 PM
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Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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Another point I just noticed:
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Last edited by Aiwendil; 12-19-2004 at 08:50 PM. |
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12-19-2004, 08:36 PM
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#13 | |
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Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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And another thing . . .
I wonder about using this: Quote:
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12-20-2004, 06:23 AM
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#14 | ||||
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King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,721
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RD-SL-10: So you think the § should simply read:
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RD-EX-21: I at last would find it utterly starnge if the youth and upgrwoing of Húrin is told in the Narn but not the final end of the tragedy in which he still played a major part. In addition a chapter called the "Ruin of Doriath" that goes for half of its lenght through the ruin of Brethil will not work for me. If WH is not included in the Narn (however we would indicat that at all) then I think it must be still seperated from the "Ruin of Doriath" or better "Nauglamír". The insertion of the chapter heading was the point were I think the chapterbreak has to be. RD-EX-28: The problem is, that when we remove the Silmaril from Thingols speech we must add something in Melains repley. In view of Thingol being over-concerned with the Silmaril, I don't think that Melian would have remebered him about it. It is much more naturall that Thingol him self make the comparision. What about are more radical editing: Quote:
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RD-EX-42: Agreed. RD-EX-22 & RD-EX-24: Agreed in principal, but you do not think that the treasure was clean when Húrin brought it out of the dragon hoard. Thus I think we can hold the washing of the treasure, now with the meaning that the Dragons stench was removed. The cruse by the blood we can simply remove: Quote:
RD-EX-25 You remeber correctly this is the discription of the hoard after it was fashioned by the dwarves in TN. My reason to put it in was to compensat for the lake of discription the treassure other wise would get in our version. The hoard has a central part in the narative. Its overhelming beauty did even effect even Thingol the magnificant King of Beleriand (and that without someone to urge him, as it was needed for Tinwelint the simple and poor Woodlandking). For this the discription as given at the scene in TN is to scanty. The discription is in a way ambigious. If you root a big and rich kingdom like Nargothrond you will find such things. So I do not see why it can not be used here, with the given reason. Respectfully Findegil |
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12-20-2004, 04:31 PM
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#15 | |||||||
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Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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RD-EX-21
Findegil wrote: Quote:
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RD-EX-28 Ah, I do see the problem there now. I like your suggestion, though it is a 'risky' emendation. I will think about this and see if I can come up with anything better. RD-EX-40 I did misunderstand. But the passage is still not quite perfect. First of all this sentence needs some tense changes: Quote:
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I'm really not sure whether there's a problem with the paragraph or I'm reading too deeply into it. As for RD-EX-36.5 - it does seem a bit odd to have Thingol doubt their purpose and only reluctantly give them the jewel now. I suppose we ought to delete this. RD-EX-22 and RD-EX-24 Okay, I suppose it makes sense for him still to wash it of its stains. But to remove the curse of the blood from Melian's words we would need to do as I suggested and change 'trebly' to 'doubly': Quote:
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So in every version we have, the Dwarves that are involved in the quarrel are the same as the Dwarves that are summoned. There is no indication that any of the Dwarves summoned would not have accepted Thingol's offer (why should they?), so I think that the statement that only the Dwarves of Nogrod were involved should be taken to imply that only they were summoned to work for Thingol. RD-EX-25 I'm inclined not to use this description because we are putting it in a different context from that for which it was written. It was intended to describe the work of the Dwarves, not the original hoard. Now, the original hoard has changed somewhat. But I don't think that means that we can apply description to it that wasn't meant for it. |
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12-20-2004, 09:19 PM
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#16 | ||||||
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The Kinslayer
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Formenos
Posts: 658
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__________________
"Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy." |
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12-21-2004, 08:33 AM
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#17 | |||||
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King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,721
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RD-EX-21: I after I have read the note about the Númenórean tradition of the ‘Great Tales’, I have to agree that WH is not necessarily a part of the Narn i Chîn Húrin, but it is clearly a part of Narn e·mbar Hador. Considering this I would suggest the following chapter structure for later part of the ‘Translation from the Elvish’ (‘Great Tales’ are bold and underlined and there content are marked by quote boxes; chapter headlines are bold, subchapters are italic and section headings are in normal script, mark that especially in the beginning of our work not all chapters are part of a ‘Great Tale’, question marks are added where headings are uncertain or need discussion later on):
… Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin Narn Beren ion Barahir or Narn e·Dinúviel Quote:
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RD-EX-40: Agreed so fare. (But is “did we have husbanded” grammatically correct?) What if we change the second part like this, to let it sound more like Thingol’s own idea: Quote:
Posted by Aiwendil: Quote:
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Sorry I left out “trebly” -> “doubly”. But your passage has an editing problem since you left “, and cursed by” stand which must be deleted. But I think that is not more than a slip of the pen. We seem to be in agreement with the content. §24b The summon to Belegost: Your argumentations is good, I agree, we will skip the summon to Belegost. RD-EX-25: If you both think it must go then we will skip the description. It seems there is not overmuch left. I wonder that we found an agreement in RD-SL-10 so easy. Respectfully Findegil |
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12-21-2004, 07:19 PM
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#18 | |||
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Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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About chapters: this is a general question and not one that need be answered here.
The main headings at least seem all right to me. But some of the proposed subheadings will be quite long and others quite short. It seems odd to me to prefer this because making the Great Tales "chapters" would result in disproportionality. RD-EX-40 Quote:
The second part of this still doesn't quite work: Quote:
I think there is a real danger in getting into very detailed alterations to individual sentences like this. It becomes very difficult to say for sure what is satisfactory and what is not. This passage has a certain function in the context of the original tale - the Dwarves are here asking, with guile, that Thingol yield the Silmaril to them so that they can make the Nauglafring. We have altered that context completely - now it is not an act of guile at all, and indeed Thingol has already given them the Silmaril, and he's done it of his own accord. To try at all costs to retain the passage, even in the new and very different context, by changing it's whole purport seems a dubious proposition to me. That's why I am inclined to err on the side of deleting rather than changing. My first choice, to be honest, would still be to replace the whole passage with a simple statement that they brought forth the Nauglamir. RD-EX-36.5 Quote:
RD-EX-22 and RD-EX-24 Ah, yes - I did accidentally not delete 'and curse by'. RD-SL-10: I am in agreement with Findegil's last proposal here. |
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12-22-2004, 04:45 AM
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#19 | |
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King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,721
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RD-EX-40 Okay, then we skip the last sentence leading to the following §:
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As fare as I can see, we are done with this section. Respectfully Findegil |
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12-22-2004, 04:11 PM
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#20 | |
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Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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RD-EX-40
I just realized that in my haste I've been continually misreading this: Quote:
A somewhat obscure point, but I think we should go with "did we husband". Other than that, I think there are no further issues with this section. I will give the next one a look when I get a chance. |
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12-23-2004, 03:41 AM
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#21 |
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King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,721
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It seems in such matters I am of little use. So is it okay to use "we did husband" instatt of "did we husband"? Or should I change the text given in post #19?
Respectfully Findegil |
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