What does Mandos mean when he says 'Not the First'? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Sleepy Ranger · 08-13-2003, 04:44 AM

In the chapter Of The Flight Of the Noldor, Mandos says 'Not the first' in reply to what Feanor says. I dont quite understand what he meant by that. A little help please

Måns · 08-13-2003, 05:05 AM

He, as you know, said that he would not be the first of all Eldar to lay slain in Aman, by which I assume that Mandos had knowledge or some 'fore'boding of what had happened at Formenos laready, with Finwë Fëanor's father, slain.

Måns

Mariska Greenleaf · 08-13-2003, 08:53 AM

That was also my idea. He was referring to his father Finwe, who would be the first to be slain.
But I think it is strange, if Mandos had this feeling, or could make this prophecie, couldn't he stop it then?
Or do you think it was just an enevitable event?

Lord of Angmar · 08-13-2003, 09:13 AM

Mandos has forboding and often foresees and portends things, but it is not his place to act on this forboding. Yes, he was referring to Finwe's death at Formenos, and some also have said that he meant the death of Miriel, mother of Feanor. I think the first is more likely, because a) it sets up the sack of Formenos and b) Mandos often foretells but it would make no sense in the context if he brought up the obvious (the fact that Miriel was dead).

The Squatter of Amon Rûdh · 08-13-2003, 02:19 PM

The passage describing the arrival of the messengers from Formenos suggests to me that Mandos may know of Finwë's death not because he has forseen it but because it has already taken place. It would have taken some time for the death of Finwë to be discovered by the Noldor of Formenos, still more for messengers to bring the news to the Ring of Doom. However, Finwë's fëa would have arrived in the Halls of Mandos very soon after his death, and it could be that amid the confusion the master of those halls would have become aware that a new spirit had come to his keeping.

Amrod the Hunter · 11-28-2004, 08:59 AM

It says in the description of the Valar that Mandos is the judge and he can foresee future,but he gives his opinion only when Manwe asks him.So,Mandos has probably foreseen that Finwe will die even before Feanor said that he is going to be the first who will be killed in Valinor.

Feanor of the Peredhil · 11-28-2004, 02:22 PM

This might help.

Fea

the phantom · 11-29-2004, 12:28 PM

I can't stand people who shamelessly plug their own threads.

08-13-2003, 04:44 AM	#1
Sleepy Ranger Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: On the field, kissing the 'Downs crest Posts: 1,654	What does Mandos mean when he says 'Not the First'? In the chapter Of The Flight Of the Noldor, Mandos says 'Not the first' in reply to what Feanor says. I dont quite understand what he meant by that. A little help please __________________ And tonight we can truly say, together we're invincible... Middle-Earth Football World Cup 2007

08-13-2003, 05:05 AM	#2
Måns Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Stockholm Posts: 63	He, as you know, said that he would not be the first of all Eldar to lay slain in Aman, by which I assume that Mandos had knowledge or some 'fore'boding of what had happened at Formenos laready, with Finwë Fëanor's father, slain. Måns __________________ "One death is a tragedy; a million deaths is a stastistic." Josef Stalin

08-13-2003, 08:53 AM	#3
Mariska Greenleaf Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Dublin Posts: 1,036	That was also my idea. He was referring to his father Finwe, who would be the first to be slain. But I think it is strange, if Mandos had this feeling, or could make this prophecie, couldn't he stop it then? Or do you think it was just an enevitable event? __________________ I hear and I forget. I see and I remember. I do and I understand.- Confucius.

08-13-2003, 09:13 AM	#4
Lord of Angmar Tyrannus Incorporalis Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: the North Posts: 833	Mandos has forboding and often foresees and portends things, but it is not his place to act on this forboding. Yes, he was referring to Finwe's death at Formenos, and some also have said that he meant the death of Miriel, mother of Feanor. I think the first is more likely, because a) it sets up the sack of Formenos and b) Mandos often foretells but it would make no sense in the context if he brought up the obvious (the fact that Miriel was dead). __________________ ...where the instrument of intelligence is added to brute power and evil will, mankind is powerless in its own defence.

08-13-2003, 02:19 PM	#5
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh Spectre of Decay Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Bar-en-Danwedh Posts: 2,178	The passage describing the arrival of the messengers from Formenos suggests to me that Mandos may know of Finwë's death not because he has forseen it but because it has already taken place. It would have taken some time for the death of Finwë to be discovered by the Noldor of Formenos, still more for messengers to bring the news to the Ring of Doom. However, Finwë's fëa would have arrived in the Halls of Mandos very soon after his death, and it could be that amid the confusion the master of those halls would have become aware that a new spirit had come to his keeping. __________________ Man kenuva métim' andúne?

11-28-2004, 08:59 AM	#6
Amrod the Hunter Haunting Spirit Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Dol Amroth Posts: 54	It says in the description of the Valar that Mandos is the judge and he can foresee future,but he gives his opinion only when Manwe asks him.So,Mandos has probably foreseen that Finwe will die even before Feanor said that he is going to be the first who will be killed in Valinor.

11-28-2004, 02:22 PM	#7
Feanor of the Peredhil La Belle Dame sans Merci Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: perpetual uncertainty Posts: 5,517	This might help. Fea __________________ peace

11-29-2004, 12:28 PM	#8
the phantom Beloved Shadow Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: The Stadium Posts: 5,971	I can't stand people who shamelessly plug their own threads. __________________ the phantom has posted. This thread is now important.