The role of Fate in Middle Earth

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit of Mist
Posts: 665</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: ....

Interesting linguistic analysis (and a bit over my head as I'm not up on my Quenya). Elrond's comment that the task is appointed to Frodo may in some way support my thesis that Frodo, a mortal, being in possession of the Ring, an artifact created by a Maia, is wound up in the fate which binds Valar/Maiar/elves, while your analysis would seem to support the idea that a Hobbit would ordinarily not be affected by fate.

On the other hand, we may be reading too much into this. While I would not put it beyond JRRT to construct an etymological foundation which would result in his languages supporting a conception of his world, I suspect that this would carry his renowned attention to detail to an extreme.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Mister Underhill]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 494</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/wight.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The Hand of Fate

I get the sense that we're dealing with a Chicken or the Egg sort of question. You could say that Frodo is caught up in a stream of Fate because the Ring came to him – or you could say that the Ring came to Frodo because it was fated to do so.

If we conceive of Ilúvatar as an omniscient Creator who exists outside the bounds of time, then the apparent paradox of foreordination vs. free will may not be a paradox at all. While the mortals (used in the broadest sense to include elves, who are technically only very long lived and not truly immortal) of ME may have free will, Ilúvatar is able to understand every possible permutation of their choices and order the world according to his will as its author. I can see a playful metaphor in Tolkien’s construction – Tolkien as the all-knowing, all powerful “author” of the tale of Arda; his characters, bound within the circles of the world, sometimes given guidance by their creator, but also with a “mind of their own”, but with Tolkien in turn able to account for any “decision” they might make and alter his world where necessary (without regard to the flow of time within the created world) to make it all consonant with his will. If we say that the destinies of Elves, Maiar, Valar, et al are governed by fate, how far do we take this notion? Is all that they do foreordained, even down to what they say? If Gandalf chose Bilbo as his burglar, then, wasn’t Bilbo, by extension, chosen by Fate? Tricky, tricky.

</p>

[galpsi]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Unquiet Dead
Posts: 1118</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/wight.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The Hand of Fate

MU,
I was reminded of my favorite saying of Frodo's:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Go not to the Elves for council, for they will say both no and yes.&quot;<hr></blockquote>
when I read your post.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> If we say that the destinies of Elves, Maiar, Valar, et al are governed by fate, how far do we take this notion? Is all that they do foreordained, even down to what they say?<hr></blockquote>
If elves are merely a mouthpiece of the Ainulindale, it must be a highly equivocal song. Said Gildor:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Elves seldom give unguarded advice, for advice is a dangerous gift, and all courses may run ill.<hr></blockquote>
The expression &quot;may&quot; in the phrase &quot;all courses may run ill&quot; could speak to uninformed members of a closed system but I think that the high lineage of the speaker instead suggests that the system, whether open or closed, contains many possible permutations.
g.

</p>

[Gilthalion]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton
Posts: 50</TD><TD><img src=http://home.att.net/~robertwgardner/lotrmap.gif WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/wight.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The Hand of Fate

Which brings us back to Babe Ruth...

<center> ~~~http://www.geocities.com/robertwgardner2000My Bare Bones Webpage</a>~~~ </center></p>

[Mister Underhill]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ghost-Prince of Cardolan
Posts: 501</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/wight.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The Hand of Fate

The singing of the music seems to encapsulate our discussion. Look:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> And it came to pass that Ilúvatar called together all the Ainur and declared to them a mighty theme, unfolding to them things greater and more wonderful than he had yet revealed; and the glory of its beginning and the splendour of its end amazed the Ainur, so that they bowed before Ilúvatar and were silent.<hr></blockquote>
Just a quick note: This seems to indicate that the Music was complete, at least in outline form. To continue:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Then Ilúvatar said to them: 'Of the theme that I have declared to you, I will now that ye make in harmony together a Great Music. And since I have kindled you with the Flame Imperishable, ye shall show forth your powers in adorning this theme, each with his own thoughts and devices, if he will. But I will sit and hearken, and be glad that through you great beauty has been wakened into song.'<hr></blockquote>Okay. This looks on the face of it like the big man is inviting the Ainur to exercise their free will. He even smiles like an indulgent father the first time Melkor disrupts the song. But also note that he intervenes when necessary to make sure the Music ends up the way he wants it to. Reading on:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Then Ilúvatar spoke, and he said: 'Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Ilúvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.'<hr></blockquote>Okay, so -- free will and the omniscient and unshakeable will of Ilúvatar (i.e., Fate), coexisting and not contradictory. Finally, at the risk of over-quoting, Ilúvatar perhaps hints that &quot;free will&quot; is really only illusory in the context of the grand design:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> 'Behold your Music! This is your minstrelsy; and each of you shall find contained herein, amid the design that I set before you, all those things which it may seem that he himself devised or added. And thou, Melkor, wilt discover all the secret thoughts of thy mind, and wilt perceive that they are but a part of the whole and tributary to its glory.'<hr></blockquote>


</p>

[Gilthalion]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 55</TD><TD><img src=http://home.att.net/~robertwgardner/lotrmap.gif WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/wight.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The Hand of Fate

Exactly! The pitcher can throw whatever he wants, but the Babe is going to hit it right into the right field stands!

<center> ~~~http://www.geocities.com/robertwgardner2000My Bare Bones Webpage</a>~~~ </center></p>

[galpsi]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Unquiet Dead
Posts: 1122</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/wight.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The Hand of Fate

What was the Babe's percentage during his best season?


</p>

[Joy]

Reviving this thread yet again. Very interesting indeed. Good job all!

[Jessica Jade]

At times,in The Lord of the Rings, the narrow escapes of Frodo and his companions can seem too coincidental, as if no matter what they do wrong (or right) the result is still the same; someone always turns up just in the nick of time to save the day.
A good point was made on the finding of the Ring by Bilbo...fate definitely plays a role, and affects the characters to a certain extent-just as fate in your own life does.
However, the plot is not ruled by fate; Tolkien emphasizes at the most crucial points that the characters control their own actions and destiny. Most of these instances involve Frodo and the ring. For instance, on the top of Amon Hen, Frodo feels two powers striving within him, but in the end, he is free to make his own choice.

[doug*platypus]

Goodness me, it's dusty inside this thread! Finally something as confusing as my wondering whether this forum actually exists in four dimensions, or whether I've somehow stepped out of reality, or if reality needs to be redefined or if anyone can explain... ah...

Oh, yeah, I think the Bilbo/Gandalf analogy is excellent. Interesting, isn't it that Bilbo is drawn into the Fate of the Ring almost as the anti-Gollum. The hobbit-like Gollum becomes embroiled in the affairs of the "great", and soon after Bilbo does, in a way redeeming his kind, or possibly assisting the end result of Smeagol's life, the destruction of the Ring. The quote from Silmarillion P22 lends us to believe that Men, and hobbits by association or assumption, are exempt from Fate.

The purpose of Eru is not made clear even to the Valar, not even completely to Mandos. In my opinion, this is the condition that makes the co-existence of Fate and Free Will possible. Where someone, unexpected by the Valar, acts outside of Fate and are seen to have Free Will, I still think that they are accomplishing the purpose of Iluvatar. Bilbo was completely free in his decision to follow the Dwarves. He is never said to have been influenced by a divine power. But if you believe that he was created by Eru, then surely he has been made in such a mould that he will be likely to do as he did and join the adventure, without being influenced by outside forces.

Several times in the Silmarillion, the gods such as Ulmo will put thoughts into the heads of the Elves or the Atani, giving them words to speak or actions to follow. It is not this way with Bilbo. I think that he is exempt from Fate, but that his Free Will has been given to him by Iluvatar. He accomplishes the purpose of Iluvatar on his own, without the power of suggestion. So he is above the control of the Valar, but still a part of the Theme of Iluvatar. Given the nature of the Themes in the Ainulindale, which ordained events up until the end of time, I think it would be wrong to say that nothing happened without Iluvatar's foreknowledge of it. He did not make Bilbo do what he did, but was aware that it would happen.

[HerenIstarion]

Sweeping the dust once again

[Mithalwen]

Teh twist of fate in the Lord of the Rings that interests me - and ties in to this week's chapter which I shall have to read incase it provides enlightenment - is the arrival of the "unsummoned" participants at the Council of Elrond. Gimli and Legolas' timely arrivals may be attributed to the unfolding of events - the visit of Sauron's emissary and Gollum's escape. Boromir is a different matter. HE was summoned by a dream but the fact that it was Faramir received the dream first and more frequently might indicate that Boromir was defying fate by taking his brother's place. This raises various interesting questions. Because I can't help thinking that Boromir's "treachery"was vital for the success of the quest ( a possible paralel would be Judas Iscariot! - whose betrayal was a vital component to bring about the sacrifice of the Messiah and so universal redemption - though I am a better Tolkien scholar than I am a theologian so I will get back to the point ).

If Faramir had been part of the Fellowship there would have been a different discussion at Parth Galen or none at all. Either they would have all carried on together towards Mordor and would have not stopped so long - though it is quite possible that they would have merely delayed rather than avoided an encounter ith the Uruks. Or they would have divided - if Aragorn was speaking honestly when he says that he would have gone on with Frodo, Sam and Gimli - and there would have entailed a different argument if Merry and Pippin refused to comply.

This might have given Frodo grounds to slip off alone in which case the course of the book might not be so much disrupted UNTIL he reached Ithilien where he would surely encounter Boromir .... who is hightly unlikely to have reacted in the same way as his brother in the same situation. I doubt that Frodo would have been allowed to continue his journey and that Gollum's life would have been spared.

Of course if all the company had continued together, events would naturally have taken a different course. If Saurman's Urks had caughtup - would the united fellowship have been enough to see them off? That is, I think unlikely. The ring would have been taken and the free peoples caught between the Red Eye and White Hand. Even if they avoided death or capture on this occasion it would have been a larger and more conspicuous company approaching Mordor. Not only would there have been no distraction of the capture of Merry and Pippin but probably no Ent involvement, probably no Rohirrim left to ride to the Pelennor, and no Army of the dead , and with Minas Tirith downfallen no Gondor to raise a final army to draw the reamioning armies out of Mordor. Even if the fellowship somehow achieved the quest (and I feel that this is so unlikely to be hardly worth contemplating in these circumstances) - I think so much would have been destroyed that it would be a Pyrrhic victory.

While it seems possible that Frodo was "meant" to meet Faramir , I can't help thinking that fate got it wrong if it meant Faramir to be in the Fellowship - maybe fate knew that the bossy big brother would pull rank. Perhaps someone else can interpret this more clearly. Another possibility is that Fate was sending the son of the Steward to bring the heir of Isildur back to Gondor - the first line of the poem is "Seek for the Sword that was broken". What was this fate and did it intervene to delay Boromir? If he hadn't lost his horse at Tharbad he would surely have arrived way in advance of Frodo.

I am sure there are things I haven't thought of and I am beginning to confuse myself - so anyone..Help?!

[Imladris]

The word doom is mentioned in the Sil about...forty something times, not to mention the word fate.

Examples of the terms fate and Doom in the Sil:

his hair as grey silver, tallest of all the Children of Iluvatar; and a high doom was before him.

This was when Elwe awoke from his trance when he saw Melian. This was before he became Thingol, before he saw Beren and asked for the Silmaril, before he refused to give the Dwarves the Silmaril, before the dwarves slew him in Doriath. Yet before he had a chance to make choices, a high doom was before him -- he had no choice in the matter.

Go not forth! For the hour is evil, and your [Feanor's] road leads to sorrow that ye do not foresee.

The word tense is very interesting to me. Tirion gives Manwe's message that Feanor should not go forth (after Morgoth if I recall correctly). Yet he says that his road leads to sorrow, not that his road willlead to sorrow if he chooses to go forth. *shrugs*

To me shall Feanor come soon.

My point in quoting these several pasages is this: the roads of men and elves are layed before them and they have no other choice but travel it (in a way it reminds me of the Fates' thread of life...your thread is your thread and it is spun for you).

The reason I quote these passages is because The Silmarillion is the building blocks, the Foundation (didn't he write it before or during LotR?). I believe that what is said in the Silmarillion can be used (in most ways) for LotR.

Originally Posted by Mithalwen[/QUOTE

While it seems possible that Frodo was "meant" to meet Faramir , I can't help thinking that fate got it wrong if it meant Faramir to be in the Fellowship - maybe fate knew that the bossy big brother would pull rank. Perhaps someone else can interpret this more clearly. Another possibility is that Fate was sending the son of the Steward to bring the heir of Isildur back to Gondor - the first line of the poem is "Seek for the Sword that was broken". What was this fate and did it intervene to delay Boromir? If he hadn't lost his horse at Tharbad he would surely have arrived way in advance of Frodo.

I am sure there are things I haven't thought of and I am beginning to confuse myself - so anyone..Help?!

I'm not quite sure what you are asking, but my thoughts are these: fate meant Faramir and Boromir both to dream the dream, and it also meant for Boromir to become part of the Fellowship.

Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Ea, and evil yet be good to have been.

[Mithalwen]

I really meant that since Faramir, received the dream first and frequently, it would suggest that he was the one who should seek for the sword, and if he had done so the consequences I suggested might have come to pass to the ruin of all..... but I may well be reading too much into this. . Also, if Boromir had not lost his horse, he would surely have reached Rivendell long before Frodo even set out. (Gandalf (albeit on Shadowfax) managed Rohan to Rivendell via the shire in 25 days), so I wondered if the message was primarily to find Aragorn rather than the ring.