Cellar Door

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Diamond18

I've heard speech that is English but qualifies as "garble" (cockney, anyone? )

Actually, I rather like "true" cockney. But it is quite rare nowadays. Much more common is the awful "Saaff London" accent, which is unfortunately very prevalent round where I live.

Given that he was brought up in the environs of Birmingham, it is rather amusing to imagine Tolkien as having a Brummie accent. No offence to any Brummies here, but it's not exactly the most erudite sounding of accents.

It seems to me that, in the UK at least, the harshest sounding accents are those hailing from urban areas. Rural accents seem much softer and somehow more pleasant. I particularly like the rounded burr of the West Country.

I, of course, speak the Queen's English.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

For anyone who would like to listen to the Professor reading from The Fellowship (the Ring Verse itself, no less) you will find a streaming MP3 at the following link:

http://www.warofthering.net/download...on=file&id=378

You can also download his BBC radio interview from 1971 at:

http://www.talkingabouttolkien.com/e_tolkien3_docs.html

Also at this site is a file of Tolkien reading Galadriel's poem in Elvish -- hear it as it was supposed to be spoken!!!

I don't know quite what the accent is, but it's not RP, nor is it working class northern -- more of an educated country ("plummy" -- which only makes sense, I suppose).

[The Saucepan Man]

Great links, Fordim! Thanks.

I think that "plummy" is probably a good description. Much as one would expect an Oxford professor to speak.

I particularly like his pronounciation of Morrrdorr in his reading from The Fellowship of the Ring. Nice that they used the same pronounciation in the films. I suspect that this was Ian McKellen's doing. Or perhaps Christopher Lee's?

The interview is great too. At one point, you can hear him puffing on his pipe!

[Bêthberry]

Well, lookee 'ere. Fordim and this thread have been commemorated in Middle-earth Magnets:

"Mordor door"

mouthed Fordim Hedgethistle,

smiling @ the difference.

Great links, Fordim. I happen to have cassettes of the BBC recordings. It is indeed fun to hear his voice pronounce various of his own creations.

Oh, and SpM, I also speak The Queen's English, but with a North American lilt.

[Guinevere]

Apropos your discussion about American English and British English: it made me remember something Tolkien wrote in letter #58 (1944)

I found myself in a carriage with an RAF officer and a very nice young American officer, New-Englander. (......)
I did however get a dim notion into his head that the "Oxford Accent" (by which he politely told me he meant mine) was not "forced" and "put on", but a natural one learned in the nursery - and was moreover not feudal or aristocratic but a very middle-class bourgeois invention. After I told him that his "accent" sounded like English after being wiped over with a dirty sponge, and generally suggested (falsely) to an English observer that, together with American slouch, it indicated a slovenly and ill-disciplined people - well, we got quite friendly.

I've recently bought "the J.R.R. Tolkien audio collection" consisting of 2 CD's with Tolkien reading from the Hobbit and LotR, and 2 CD's with Christopher Tolkien reading from the Silmarillion. I enjoyed hearing their voices tremendously! I too noticed the rolling R's .
(Btw did you know that Finarfin and Fingolfin have the stress on the middle syllable ? that was new for me.)
The Quenia in Galadriel's poem sounds rather like Italian to me, though Quenia is inspired by Finnish. Italian is the language that sounds most beautiful to my ears, but Tolkien's English - especially the "archaic" direct speech seems beautiful to me too. Although I don't really manage to separate the pure sound from the meaning of the words...
I studied for my CPE in London, but I lived then with an American family, and it was their way of speaking that stuck with me... , so that's "everyday" language to me, and the way Tolkien talks seems somehow "nobler" to me, but I guess that's just subjective.

[Encaitare]

After I told him that his "accent" sounded like English after being wiped over with a dirty sponge, and generally suggested (falsely) to an English observer that, together with American slouch, it indicated a slovenly and ill-disciplined people - well, we got quite friendly.

*Enca sits up very, very straight, and makes a mental note to try that insult on someone in near future.*

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

I particularly like his pronounciation of Morrrdorr in his reading from The Fellowship of the Ring. Nice that they used the same pronounciation in the films. I suspect that this was Ian McKellen's doing. Or perhaps Christopher Lee's?

Somewhere in the extra materials for the EE of FotR, Ian McKellan says that he quite concsiously mimicked the recordings that exist of Tolkien's voice in his characterisation of Gandalf!

I did once sit down and listen to the Ring Verse as spoken by McKellan and the Professor, and let me tell you -- Sir Ian is an uncanny mimic!

All this talk of accents has made me pay attention to my own, which is a regional dialect of my part of Canada. To American and British ears, I have been told, it is quite funny:

"G'day. Eye'mm oot and aboot the hoose toh-day. Boot neva' feeear. Eye'm cohming baack froom tha cyownty ('county') sooooon."

I mention this, because for whatever reason I've always imagined the Dwarves as having an accent like my own -- the performance of John Rhys Davies notwithstanding (I don't really sound Scottish, much as I'd like to).

EDIT: Bb, that's not my first appearance in the magnets. Somebody who wished to remain anonymous expressed a desire to "defenestrate" me!!

ULP!

[Mithalwen]

I too have the Tolkiens' recordings and I was surprised, actually by JRR's slightly rural tinge ...and he speaks so fast! I am not surprised his students sometimes struggled to follow him! Christopher sound rather more patrician - maybe it was partly due to the subject matter, but it made me think of a certain type of Anglican clergyman declaiming from the pulpit. Nevertheless it is not untypical of his age and class.

Could we have that in IPA ? It looks quite Scottish the way you write it.... but surely the strangest Canadian accent is the Quebecois one - when I lived in France, I had a friend who hailed originally from Chicoutimi - we teased him unmercifully, telling him that a French-Canadian was someone who couldn't speak French OR English properly (Oh I'll get flamed for that,I know I will...).

From my early schoolbooks, I know I must have picked up a bit of the local "Hampshire burr" ( excessive "r"s all over the place) and my parents despaired of me ever learning to spell "water" correctly. I remember my mystified father saying it was spelt as it sounded. To me it sounded as if it had at least 3 "r"s just in the middle. The difference between the Hampshire accent and the better known, neighbouring West Country one is that we say Dorrrrrrrrrset and they say Daaaaaaaaaaaaaasset . Alas both are disappearing under the hideous slick of glottal stopping and the inability to sound "th" as anything other than "f". I have little hope of an improvement when the leader of Her Majesty's government, despite receiving his education at Fettes and Oxford, pronounces that word as gu'men. [For the record, I sound as if I could work for the World Service - unless I get overexcited or emotional when I sound like I am on Helium... or a banshee!]

Perhaps it is true that foreigners speak the best English - Once emerging from arrivals at Heathrow, my shoulder bag fell from the trolley and I was stopped by a young chinese man "Madam! You have dropped your reticule!".
I was instantly transported to the world of Jane Austen - quite delightful. So reticule is one of my "cellar doors" .

I wonderif the name of the "Who wants to be a Millionaire?" Production company 'Celador" was inspired by that comment of Tolkien?

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Could we have that in IPA ?

Sure. . .if I knew what IPA was. . .

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Oh, and SpM, I also speak The Queen's English, but with a North American lilt.

Must be something to do with hailing from the colonies.

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I wonder if the name of the "Who wants to be a Millionaire?" Production company 'Celador" was inspired by that comment of Tolkiens?

Hehe. I noticed that myself only last night, Mithalwen. It could actually be a Sindarin word, if one substitutes an 'e' for the 'a', meaning "Silver land". I suspect, however, that the real meaning behind the name is much more mundane.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle

Sure. . .if I knew what IPA was. . .

Well it could be India Pale Ale - but I have to say I am surprised that you are not familiar with the International Phonetic Alphabet....

[Diamond18]

Originally Posted by Encaitare

Apparantly the Midwestern "accent" is the closest thing to speaking the English language without an accent, if you see what I mean. My orchestra director, who I believe is Midwestern, speaks so nicely and clearly; it's so refreshing.

Well, that explains it. All New Yorkers must bow before my nice, clear Midwestern accent. Or at least nod your heads as if you're paying attention.... (And just for the record, trust me, no one in Wisconsin talks anything like Laverne and Shirley in real life. )