Could Lorien resist without Nenya? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Iarhen · 03-24-2003, 09:08 AM

We already know taht the rings gave power to their bearers according to their personal power.

So, as we all know also, Galadriel was the migthiest and wisest of the elves that remained on Middle Earth (so says Tolkien). Given the case that she had a magical power that surpassed all others on M.E. (not counting Sauron with the Ring), could she have defended her realm without Nenya?

The use of the Mirror, her capacity to read other people's minds, and specially since Nenya was not a ring for war, my guess is taht she had the power to keep Lorien up against Sauron and the forces of evil.

In a situation where Sauron recovers the One Ring, the elven ring bearers would have to take off their rings once more. My question is, could still Lorien stand against the forces of Dol Guldur and all other evil forces with a Galadriel not aided by Nenya?

Tar-Palantir · 03-24-2003, 01:18 PM

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she had the power to keep Lorien up against Sauron and the forces of evil

I think you give Galadriel way too much credit, like she is some sort of super-elf.

In the last scenrio you asked "what if" she had to remove Nenya because Sauron recovered The ONE, would Lorien hold against him anyway? No. Lorien would diminish and the elves would go into the West - pretty common knowledge I think.

[ March 24, 2003: Message edited by: Tar-Palantir ]

**lindil** · 03-24-2003, 04:32 PM

I think their arrows would work just fine without Nenya.

But if Sauron had regained the one, they would have wisely made a b-line straight to the Havens. [perhaps through Moria since the balrog was dead - but don't anyone dare start a thread over it [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] ]

lord of dor-lomin · 03-24-2003, 05:41 PM

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So, as we all know also, Galadriel was the migthiest and wisest of the elves that remained on Middle Earth (so says Tolkien)

Actually, I didn't know that. I remember Tolkien saying that she and Feanor were the greatest of the Noldor, but that's just the Noldor. Plus, Elrond wasn't around when that statement was made.

**lindil** · 03-24-2003, 06:11 PM

Elrond's existencve in the legendarium preceeded galadriel's. But the Noldor are only one part of Elronds heritage, and he preffered to be reckoned from Thingol and Luthien [and I forget where it says that but it does [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]]

He has Edain of the first, second [rather distantly] and third houses, Noldor, Sindar, a wee bit of Maia. So to characterise him as a Noldo would be rather inaccurate.

Iarhen · 03-24-2003, 08:26 PM

In fact, Tar Palantir, I do think that Galadriel was some sort of superior elf, specially when compared with the elves in her realm, and pretty much every other elf on M.E. With the notable exception of Cirdan, among the elves remaining on M.E., she was mightiest. In RotK Tolkien says so. And in the end, Tolkien implies that such was the might and position of Galadriel among the Eldar on Valinor that by her intervention, Gimli was accepted to go to Valinor with Legolas.

And about the fleeing that the Galadhrim would feature if Sauron recovered the one, I dont think it would be that easy. I remember that, at some point, its stated in LOTR that they cannot flee safely from M.E. even if they wanted to do so before Sauron recovered the One. Just about the Lorien elves, they would have to face the attacks of Dol Guldur and the Orcs around Moria just to flee towards the Grey Havens. Maybe the archers and soldiers of Lorien would stand a fight to take Celeborn, Galadriel and others out. But not against the might of Mordor, Dol Guldur and Moria behind you.

I do think that they were in a dead end. Thats why Galadriel says that theyll fall helpessly in the hands of Sauron if he recovers his ring. Thats why they remained fighting on M.E.

Otherwise, why wouldn`t Galadriel and Co. flee M.E. before the Ring reached Mordor and Sauron's hand? If she was already permitted to go back to Valinor, why would she be here? Arwen? Dont think so...

lord of dor-lomin · 03-24-2003, 11:25 PM

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So to characterise him as a Noldo would be rather inaccurate

Yeah, I know. That wasn't what I was trying to do. I just added that in case someone did think of him as one of the Noldor, to show that the statement about her being the greatest didn't apply to him, no matter what race he was considered.

Quote:

she was mightiest. In RotK Tolkien says so

Did he?

Tar-Palantir · 03-24-2003, 11:53 PM

Superior elf to most sure, but my 'Super-elf' was an allusion to Superman, sorry if it wasn't clear.

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Tolkien implies that such was the might and position of Galadriel among the Eldar on Valinor that by her intervention, Gimli was accepted to go to Valinor with Legolas.

It says nowhere that Gimli was accepted in Aman.

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And about the fleeing that the Galadhrim would feature if Sauron recovered the one, I dont think it would be that easy.

But you still have to try, at least there is a chance, while staying in Lorien they would have no chance.

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If she was already permitted to go back to Valinor, why would she be here?

Because Arda is where she lived, she always wanted to stay there. She was even sad that she would be force to sail west. Can you imagine? Sad to go to the undying lands? That shows where her heart was. She even ignored the pardon on her ban from Aman to stay. That is why she stayed, though I am sure there are other contributing factors we don't know about. While we're at it, why didn't Elrond leave? It would be a predominantly speculative answer.

[ March 25, 2003: Message edited by: Tar-Palantir ]

Adanadhel · 03-27-2003, 10:08 PM

If Sauron recovered the one Lorien would certainly fall (all of ME would.) But if the one was lost again, or was destroyed she could have used the Elessar to maintain the magic of Lorien, just as she did in the second age, when the elves had to hide their rings.

This always bothers me... she should have kept the Elessar and the elves should have stayed in Lorien.

If there were implications for Aragorn not being able to become king without the Elessar, she could have just loaned it to him until he became king. (I know, all just wishful thinking... and certainly the Rivendel elves would still have left.)

Iarhen · 03-29-2003, 11:11 AM

This is new to me...

Did Galadriel actually used the Elessar to mantain Lorien?

And, more importantly, would the Elessar be enough to keep Lorien as an immortal place?

03-24-2003, 09:08 AM	#1
Iarhen Wight Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Laurelindorenan Posts: 225	Could Lorien resist without Nenya? We already know taht the rings gave power to their bearers according to their personal power. So, as we all know also, Galadriel was the migthiest and wisest of the elves that remained on Middle Earth (so says Tolkien). Given the case that she had a magical power that surpassed all others on M.E. (not counting Sauron with the Ring), could she have defended her realm without Nenya? The use of the Mirror, her capacity to read other people's minds, and specially since Nenya was not a ring for war, my guess is taht she had the power to keep Lorien up against Sauron and the forces of evil. In a situation where Sauron recovers the One Ring, the elven ring bearers would have to take off their rings once more. My question is, could still Lorien stand against the forces of Dol Guldur and all other evil forces with a Galadriel not aided by Nenya? __________________ "In place of a Dark Lord you will have a Queen! Not dark but beatiful and terrible as the Dawn! Treacherous as the sea! Stronger than the foundations of the Earth! All shall love me and despair!" --- Galadriel when tempted by the One Ring.

03-24-2003, 04:32 PM	#3
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	I think their arrows would work just fine without Nenya. But if Sauron had regained the one, they would have wisely made a b-line straight to the Havens. [perhaps through Moria since the balrog was dead - but don't anyone dare start a thread over it [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] ] __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

03-24-2003, 06:11 PM	#5
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	Elrond's existencve in the legendarium preceeded galadriel's. But the Noldor are only one part of Elronds heritage, and he preffered to be reckoned from Thingol and Luthien [and I forget where it says that but it does [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]] He has Edain of the first, second [rather distantly] and third houses, Noldor, Sindar, a wee bit of Maia. So to characterise him as a Noldo would be rather inaccurate. __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

03-24-2003, 08:26 PM	#6
Iarhen Wight Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Laurelindorenan Posts: 225	In fact, Tar Palantir, I do think that Galadriel was some sort of superior elf, specially when compared with the elves in her realm, and pretty much every other elf on M.E. With the notable exception of Cirdan, among the elves remaining on M.E., she was mightiest. In RotK Tolkien says so. And in the end, Tolkien implies that such was the might and position of Galadriel among the Eldar on Valinor that by her intervention, Gimli was accepted to go to Valinor with Legolas. And about the fleeing that the Galadhrim would feature if Sauron recovered the one, I dont think it would be that easy. I remember that, at some point, its stated in LOTR that they cannot flee safely from M.E. even if they wanted to do so before Sauron recovered the One. Just about the Lorien elves, they would have to face the attacks of Dol Guldur and the Orcs around Moria just to flee towards the Grey Havens. Maybe the archers and soldiers of Lorien would stand a fight to take Celeborn, Galadriel and others out. But not against the might of Mordor, Dol Guldur and Moria behind you. I do think that they were in a dead end. Thats why Galadriel says that theyll fall helpessly in the hands of Sauron if he recovers his ring. Thats why they remained fighting on M.E. Otherwise, why wouldn`t Galadriel and Co. flee M.E. before the Ring reached Mordor and Sauron's hand? If she was already permitted to go back to Valinor, why would she be here? Arwen? Dont think so... __________________ "In place of a Dark Lord you will have a Queen! Not dark but beatiful and terrible as the Dawn! Treacherous as the sea! Stronger than the foundations of the Earth! All shall love me and despair!" --- Galadriel when tempted by the One Ring.

03-27-2003, 10:08 PM	#9
Adanadhel Animated Skeleton Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: New England Posts: 35	If Sauron recovered the one Lorien would certainly fall (all of ME would.) But if the one was lost again, or was destroyed she could have used the Elessar to maintain the magic of Lorien, just as she did in the second age, when the elves had to hide their rings. This always bothers me... she should have kept the Elessar and the elves should have stayed in Lorien. If there were implications for Aragorn not being able to become king without the Elessar, she could have just loaned it to him until he became king. (I know, all just wishful thinking... and certainly the Rivendel elves would still have left.) __________________ I don't feel safe in Middle Earth no more... I don't want to die in the ruling ring war... I want to sail away to a distant shore... and make like an ELF man

03-29-2003, 11:11 AM	#10
Iarhen Wight Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Laurelindorenan Posts: 225	This is new to me... Did Galadriel actually used the Elessar to mantain Lorien? And, more importantly, would the Elessar be enough to keep Lorien as an immortal place? __________________ "In place of a Dark Lord you will have a Queen! Not dark but beatiful and terrible as the Dawn! Treacherous as the sea! Stronger than the foundations of the Earth! All shall love me and despair!" --- Galadriel when tempted by the One Ring.