Why their were no women in the fellowship

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Get thee to a Willowery!

And as for making this post topical, well, I want to raise another issue. It is not why were there no women in the Fellowship, but why was there no woman at the Council of Elrond? Was Arwen relegated to a back room sweatshop where she toiled at her banner-works? Or was she in fact present? Did her presence distract Aragorn and make it too difficult to write a heroic role for him? Is it possible that heroic narrative must deny Truth and Reality by omitting various historical facts? Is Arwen's absence a most notorious example of the silenced woman?

This nefarious slight suggests rank conspiracy at the deepest levels. Why do you think Bilbo refused to acknowledge she was present? Or is the Translator at fault for being unable to decipher the scribbled script? Or is the omission a failure of authorship? Do we have here evidence that, after Arwen's pure and noble rejection of the Ring, Galadriel's near-temptation would have been shown in, er, poor light? Do we have an Author playing favourites with his female characters?

The possibilities boggle the mind, even those not dependent upon pills.

The idea of author playing favourites with his female characters has given me an evil idea - I know I am inclined to Arwen-bash because of the Xena-Arwen PJ fiasco, and I know the dull, prosaic expalnation is that Arwen was a late arrival to the plot who could have been better integrated (not that I think she would ever have been written into the quest).

However, prompted by memories of two of my dearest novelists who played this game - Jane Austen who "punished" Louisa Musgrove for falling for the hero when she wasn't the heroine by making her slightly soft in the head after her fall at Lyme, and Anthony Trollope who defied genetic probability by making the child of the magnificent Dr and Mrs Grantly into the original dumb blonde [Griselda, Lady Hartletop and Dumbello] - this thought occurred: What evidence is there that Arwen was intelligent?

Much as I hate to admit it - not all women have been held back from the higher echelons of power by male hegemony, Some are held back by their lack of ability. It is possible that Arwen did not take after her father and grandmother, that she was no Condeleeza Rice (nb this example is not made with political intent, but because she is probably the most powerful woman in the world who hasn't been born or married into a high position).

Imagine then Arwen at the Council, unhampered by a tendancy to over intellectualize, "Daddy, can't you just give me the ring - but get the smiths to set a nice big diamond in it like Granny's - you never stop grumpling about my haberdasher's bill and now you want to throw away jewellery!...." It might be the Middle Earth equivalent of giving Paris Hilton a seat at the UN....

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I know I am inclined to Arwen-bash because of the Xena-Arwen PJ fiasco

What makes you say film-Arwen is a Xenarwen figure? Heck, all she ended up doing was riding with Frodo to the Ford and defying the Nazgul when she knew Daddy would bring a flood down on them if they came any further. Hardly qualifies her for warrior-princess status.

And, more importantly, what's to say that book-Arwen wouldn't have been a Xenarwen, or at least a tad more tough in a pinch than she is made out to be, had she been given the opportunity. Luthien is the precedent here, after all.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

What makes you say film-Arwen is a Xenarwen figure? Heck, all she ended up doing was riding with Frodo to the Ford and defying the Nazgul when she knew Daddy would bring a flood down on them if they came any further. Hardly qualifies her for warrior-princess status.

And, more importantly, what's to say that book-Arwen wouldn't have been a Xenarwen, or at least a tad more tough in a pinch than she is made out to be, had she been given the opportunity. Luthien is the precedent here, after all.

To clarify - Since this was a MIRTH thread and the Xenarwen expression had already been used, I used it as a shorthand caveat for " I was outraged that PJ was preparing to corrupt the story by sending Arwen to fight at helm's deep (a bigger corruption even than sending Haldir, blah, blah ), miffed that even the remaining expanded role deprived me of one of my favourite cute elf-boys - three since no Elladan and Elrohir either ), and while I have nothing much against "book" Arwen other than her extreme dullness she has now become melded in my mind with Liv Tyler. And there is something about Liv Tyler that is so irritating that I want to smack her every time she comes on screen".

And yes that is irrational and unfair - but it didn't help that she seemed so unenthusiastic about the films in the first interviews. I am sure she is probably lovely in real life and seems to be remarkably grounded despite her unorthodox upbringing - but irrational dislike - is irrational..... Also I doubt it since she had to be fetched back from Lorien by her brothers ... so it is unlikely she would have been scouting alone in the wild.... Anyway - Luthien and Beren's tale is far from a favourite with me - this is probably another irrational dislike but, to quote Powell, Beren always seemed to me to be "so wet you could shoot snipe off him" ...

I bet you are so glad you asked now

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

And yes that is irrational and unfair - but it didn't help that she seemed so unenthusiastic about the films in the first interviews.

Interestingly, Liv was apparently instrumental in the omission of Arwen from the Helm's Deep scenes. But that was no doubt because she was so stung by the internet reaction, rather than any deep affection for Tolkien's writings.

Funnily enough, I have come round to the view that "Xenarwen" at Helm's Deep wouldn't have been such a bad thing. Quite apart from the fact that she would have been more manly than Haldir and the chorus line he turned up with, I don't see why it shouldn't work within Tolkien's conception of Middle-earth. Why shouldn't Elven women be warriors? Whether you like it or not, the tale of Luthien and Beren certainly portrays Luthien in a very strong light, and Arwen was supposed to be, in some ways, the "reincarnation" of Luthien. Giving her a strong role in the films wouldn't have been that far off base, to my mind, when viewed in that context.

[Mithalwen]

And The Saucepan man continues in his valiant quest to get this thread reinstated in "Books" ....

According to HoME, Elven women who had not born children could, and were just as valiant as men in defence...

*gulp* what do you mean, Haldir not manly? I bet he had really sharp nails and a truly lethal handbag - seriously, if he were really gay, he would never have worn that armour with THAT cloak....

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Yes. I imagine many were disappointed when in the extended dvd of FOTR
the full scene with Haldir and The Fellowship entering Lorien wasn't included.

Haldir (with Galadriel and a number of elf singers watching): "Yes, this is the heart of Elvendom on earth. The larch, the fir, the mighty Scotch Pine, as we sing, sing, sing...
I'm an elflord and I'm okay.
I sneak around all night and I sleep all day
I love to press wild flowers..."

Galadriel: "Haldir, I thought you were so manly!"

(Of course, it might not be too wise a career move to become a lumberjack so
close to Fangorn Forest).

[Mithalwen]

LOL ... and for a followup a little "Village people"


Old Dwarf, there's no need to feel down.
I said, Old Dwarf, pick yourself off the ground. (oh sorry you have already)
I said, Old Dwarf, 'cause you're in an elf town
There's no need to be unhappy.

Old Dwarf, there's a place you can walk.
I said, Old dwarf , when you're short .
You can stay there, and I'm sure you will find
Many ways to have a good time.

It's fun to stay at the CGLL (Caras Galadhon Loth Lorien).
It's fun to stay at the CGLL.

They have everything for old dwarves to enjoy,
You can hang out with all the elf boys ...

It's fun to stay at the CGLL
It's fun to stay at the CGLL.

You can get yourself clean, you could have a good shave,
You can do whatever you crave ...

Old Dwarf, are you listening to me?
I said, Old Dwarf, what do you want to be?
I said, Old Dwarf, you can make real your dreams.
But you've got to know this one thing!

They have everything for old dwarves to enjoy,
You can hang out with all the elf boys ...

It's fun to stay at the CGLL
It's fun to stay at the CGLL.

etc

[The Saucepan Man]

Shameless

Plugging

[Mithalwen]

ooh get you! Saucepan of milk for the man clanking across the dancefloor....