Sam, Loyal friend, bravest hobbit, or just scared - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

eldomeldo · 03-22-2003, 05:50 PM

I wonder if any of you have thought about Sam's part in the fellowship. He was very loyal to Frodo and i consider that he was also very brave, but was his loyalty out of his love for Frodo and because of their friendship, or was it because he was scared of what would happen if he did not follow his promise through. I have always felt a great deal of sympathy for poor Sam, as he was often on the receiving end of Frodo's anger, due to the power of the ring.

Ruler of the Frogs · 03-22-2003, 06:07 PM

I personally admired Sam. That kind of loyalty to a friend is not one that you come across every day. He stuck through it until the end, and he was prepared to die on this quest, so he could follow his best friend with loyalty and trust. I do beleive though, that Sam was scared. He never showed it to Frodo, probably because he didn't want to get Frodo scared too. I think that Sam was truley a bit afraid, who wouldn't be? All his life he grew up in quiet Hobbiton, when all of sudden he's climbing up Mount Doom, being faced by orcs, everything! But I think that he was brave as well. 'Courage is not the abesense of fear, but the presense of fear and the will to go on.' Or something like that. Sam was brave, perhaps one of the bravest in the book. He was scared, terrified even, but he was loyal to Frodo and would follow him until death - therefore, Sam was very brave.

Silmarien · 03-22-2003, 06:20 PM

I think ruler of the frogs has it the saying I've heard is 'Courage is not the abscence of fear but the belief that something is more important than fear'. Sam believed that the quest was more important. But I also think he was scared of what could happen if the ring wasn't destroyed. He decided to take the ring when he thought Frodo was dead, he knew that was more important his fear of whether this was the right thing to do. He was scared, but out of fear comes courage and bravery.

Luthien_ Tinuviel · 03-22-2003, 06:58 PM

I must say that Sam is my favorite LOTR character. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] He's just so brave, loyal, and trusting to Frodo. It continually amazes me that he has the loyalty and the strength of will to continue on his journey even when Frodo treats him like dirt because of the influence of the Ring. Even when Frodo gives up hope and becomes so weak that he can hardly carry on, Sam still hopes and diligently stands by Frodo and helps him in every way possible, nearly killing himself by giving what was left of the food and drink to Frodo. Even when Sam does finally despair, it is turned to new strength in him. He is willing to give his life for Frodo, even the wretched, wearied and changed Frodo which he now helped on the journey. Sam even gave up his precious pots *sniff* to lighten the load. Even when he knows (or thinks he knows) that he and Frodo are going to die once the Ring was destroyed, Sam still finds enough courage to mourn the loss of Frodo's finger and try to cheer him up.

I believe that Sam, not Frodo, is the "main" character of LOTR. Sam is the last person mentioned, and the one of the first new characters we are introduced to. Sam is debatably the character who changes and learns the most one his journey. He went from being a simple gardener from a poor family, like his father before him, to becoming Mayor of Hobbiton seven times over, Counselor of the North-Kingdom, and famous throughout Middle-earth as a member of the Fellowship and the servant of Frodo Baggins.

Sam is almost a role model to me. Such extreme loylty, such a sense of duty. I am proud that my best friend thinks I am somewhat like Sam. That really makes my day. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] How many of you would jump into a lake for your friend if you couldn't swim? Carry your friend up a mountain? Follow your friend into the unknown? Stick with your friend even after they treat a demented thing with an obssession for a ring better than you? Give your friend all your food and water? Be prepared to die for your friend and be at peace with the fact that you probably will? Not many people would do this. Sam does. It is for this reason that I love him more than any other LOTR character. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

(Sorry, that was really long).

(edited for spelling errors)

[ June 12, 2003: Message edited by: Luthien_ Tinuviel ]

Nurumaiel · 03-22-2003, 07:55 PM

It never once crossed my mind that Sam did what he did out of fear. Every word spoken, everything he did just said to me, "Bravery. Loyalty." I have a deep admiration for Sam, and this is way. I have always admired those who, despite all the dangers that stood in their way, remained faithful and loyal to their friends always, and who were brave enough to go on even when all seemed hopeless.

I do think his loyalty was his love for Frodo. Their friendship is something I wish I could see more often, and indeed once, in this real world. Never have I seen a servant so devoted to his master, and indeed I have never seen a master who treated his servant like nothing other than his friend.

Yes, Sam was afraid. But he was not afraid of a punishment that would come if he left Frodo, he feared for his master's safety, and for the safety of his Shire. It's my belief that Sam would have gone with Frodo even if the dangers were few and there was no need to.

For Frodo, Sam did everything you could ask of a friend, and even what you would think is too much to ask of someone. And he wasn't asked... he just did it out of courage, loyalty, and a friendship deeper than any I have seen.

EDIT

Two quotes of Sam come to my mind...

"If you don't come back, sir, then I shan't, that's certain. Don't you leave him! they said to me. Leave him! I said. I never mean to. I am going with him, if he climbs to the Moon, and if any of those Black Riders try to stop him, they'll have Sam Gamgee to reckon with, I said."

"No, I'll go home by the long road with Mr. Frodo, or not at all."

Both of those quotes clearly proclaim his loyalty and love for his dear master, and every time those words come up, I think of how like Frodo was to have a friend as faithful as Samwise Gamgee.

[ March 22, 2003: Message edited by: Nurumaiel ]

Eressië Ailin · 03-22-2003, 09:37 PM

I think Sam did alot of what he did out of fear. Not just just fear of what would happen to him, he wasn't even thinking about himself when he said he would go to Mordor with Frodo, but out of fear for Frodo and The Shire. It just goes to show you how close the two were. Sam knew there was danger ahead of him, but he couldn't possibly imagine what kind of danger. For Sam, it probably would have been harder for him to stay in Shire, waiting for Frodo to come back. Sam wouldn't be able to let his friend face danger alone; he has to be there with him. I don't have a book here next to me (I know, it's sad), but in FoTR, Pippin says something about Sam 'getting rewarded for his cheek, instead of punished.' In my opinion, making the hobbits stay in the Shire would be a very harsh and cruel punishment. It would be like making them wait until their best friend dies.

MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie · 03-23-2003, 03:40 AM

Well, I never had thought of it as fear. A good thought but quickly rejected in my mind. I'm not one of those Sam fans, in fact sometimes I hate him, but that's another story. However, I doo admire a lot of his qualities and actions. I think that the fear is what made it so easy for him to step out of the Shire to follow Frodo. Of course he was loyal and brave. Those quotes Nurumaiel gave do clearly show his loyalty to Frodo, and his friendship to him also. However, even though he says it, doesn't mean it is so. He might say that but when the time comes he might not prove that thruthful to his word. It seemed hard for him to leave the Shire, even to follow Frodo. However, he still did. I think had he known the full dangers of taking up the quest he would have had a dilemma on his hands on whether to leave the Shire or to avoid the danger. His naive quality at that point allowed him to miss the realization of what he was getting into. And besides that, there's the fear of not obeying Gandalf's order to go with Frodo. I think his loyalty to Frodo was the real reason he went though, not fear.

Feanor of the Peredhil · 03-23-2003, 09:40 AM

I fully believe that it was love, not fear that drove Sam on. Has nobody ever had a person in their life that they would be willing to die for? That they have given up things for? That they would be boiled alive for before they left alone to face the world? I don't know about anyone else, but I have. I have had people in my life that I'd cheerfully die for just so that they are able to continue their life. Even if they don't fully realize it. I believe that Sam loved Frodo that much that he was willing to go to Hell and back for him. I'm sure he was afraid, but fear is normal in situations like that. I think he just didn't want Frodo alone and without love in lands that he'd never seen, had only heard of.

Aratlithiel · 03-23-2003, 12:31 PM

Perhaps it was both love and fear...afterall, wasn't Sam's greatest fear that he might somehow lose Frodo? Therefore, all his acts of bravery would be driven by his greatest fear. Ooh! I like that.

akhtene · 03-28-2003, 09:58 PM

First of all, it's been hard for me to view Sam and Frodo's relations as FRIENDSHIP. Sam views Frodo as someone superior, not just in social standing, but in EVERYTHING. Of course, Sam isn't a mere servant. I see him as a kind of armour-bearer from chivalry times, for whom devotion to his master is above death.

Quote:

'Courage is not the abscence of fear but the belief that something is more important than fear'.

Great quote, Silmarien. I don't suppose that Sam was the bravest hobbit ever, he must have been afraid of monsters, and water, and perhaps Frodo's moods; but his chief fear (if I may put it so) was that he would fail HIS quest, not give Frodo all the aid and support he could.

[ March 28, 2003: Message edited by: akhtene ]

Pukel-Man · 03-29-2003, 02:42 AM

Ignorant bliss.

Thor · 03-30-2003, 11:52 PM

I get the impression that the success of Sam's part in the quest was due to a certain amount of blindness to the true dangers of the situation. He knew things were big and very scary but his love for his master may have helped to block out his understanding of the enormity of events around him. Being focussed on helping Frodo through everything confronting him would therefore take Sam's attention away from his own situation and in some way make it easier to be strong and carry on as the loyal servant. There is no doubt in my mind that all of Sam's actions are attributable to his love for Frodo.

MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie · 03-31-2003, 12:42 AM

Quote:

I get the impression that the success of Sam's part in the quest was due to a certain amount of blindness to the true dangers of the situation.

yep:

Quote:

His naive quality at that point allowed him to miss the realization of what he was getting into.

but:

Quote:

Being focussed on helping Frodo through everything confronting him would therefore take Sam's attention away from his own situation

I have to disagree with that. I think that when he was well into the journey, he was well aware of the danger he was in, but he didn't care as long as he was protecting Frodo. I think that he would give his life for Frodo even if he actually was aware of what he was giving up. He just would just want to do it for Frodo, and he would do anything for Frodo, that's how loyal he was. I do think he knew of the danger he was in.

Tar-Palantir · 03-31-2003, 02:13 AM

Well, it seems I'll have to mention what Mr. Frodo [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] has amzingly not commented on - Sam's unforgiving side. The diabolical drawback to the clingy loyal types is a mammoth disdain for any who dare oppose their side or 'master'. Sam is close to this. Remember how long it took to trust Strider? That was protectiveness to a fault that could have led to trouble. And then of course the most famous of examples - his chiding, demeaning and blindly abusive behavior towards Smeagol.

What would possess him to treat another so callously? He could not forgive him. He could not see past the exterior as could Frodo with the result being a sorrowful sealing of Smeagol's fate. His chance at repentance smashed beyond recall because Sam had to protect his precious master. I am not saying I don't like Sam, I do, Frodo would never have made it without him. But there is always another side to the coin.

I'd be interested to know why exactly they were such good friends. Frodo did not grow up in Hobbiton like Sam did and there were others he knew longer. I think it was some kind of hero worship scenario from early on. Everybody knew Bag-End was the top of the top (it would probably be on MTV Cribs today) and Sam was but an employee. Sam was his gardener, he had a job. What did Frodo do? What did Bilbo do? Were they the rich bachelors living in the lap of luxury that all the 'little people' (pun intended) wanted to be like or with? They throw the best parties and give out the best gifts. Throw on top of that Bilbo's fascinating stories of the Elves and I bet Sam was like a panting little pit bull: protecting his wonderful master, staying by his side, blind to oncoming danger, slow to let go, forgive or trust others.

My favorite part of Sam is his accomplishments after the quest. After he and the other Hobbits came into their own.

TP

Samwise Gamgee · 06-11-2003, 06:02 PM

Quote:

He was very loyal to Frodo and i consider that he was also very brave, but was his loyalty out of his love for Frodo and because of their friendship, or was it because he was scared of what would happen if he did not follow his promise through

ONe thing I disliked about the movie was the whole "promise" thing. Sam made no promise to Gandalf. He could have turned back whenever he wanted, just as Elrond said. I don't believe he was following because of any fear (except fear that his master would die without him, of course), but he made no promise to anyone to bind him to frodo.

akhtene · 06-11-2003, 07:19 PM

Quote:

he made no promise to anyone to bind him to frodo.

I don't remember how it was in the film, and in the book Gandalf needs no promises: he just states how it's going to be: "You shall go away with Mr Frodo.

But the promise was really given, to Gildor; and quite an eloquent promise it was. (ch. 'A Short Cut to Mushrooms')

Gorwingel · 06-11-2003, 08:14 PM

Yeah, I have to kind of agree that what he did was not really out of friendship. Let's just look at how their relationship was before the events of the Ring. To me they were not really serious buddies in most ways. Sam was mainly just the servent that would come over and do his work, sometimes say hi to his employer (or master) and then go home. But he was still loyal to him, he would do anything. I wish that this had all been done through friendship, but I just don't think that is true.
I don't think he did it out of fear because even midway through the journey I don't think he really knew what was going on.
I think it was just out of loyalty, a loyalty that sadly even Frodo did not show in return.

Samwise Gamgee · 06-11-2003, 08:52 PM

It was definitely a loyalty. HE worshiped frodo, but they were not great friends (although they were "on friendly terms") until, probably when Frodo finally realizes that he needs sam at the boats. In TTT when Frodo calls Sam friend of friends, their relationship has been established as something deeper. But I do believe it was more adoration on sam's part than mutual love in the beginning

Also, when sam says "I'd go with him to the moon and back," that is not really a promise, and it was entirely volutary, whatever the case.

Corwyn Celesil · 06-11-2003, 09:43 PM

Ah, why did Sam go? Why did he do what he did? First it was duty, I believe. Tolkien had an intrisically British worldview, mainly pre-WWII worldview since that was when he was a child and young man, and his automatic views on masters and servants came out in it. Mister Frodo was the master, Sam was the epitome of the devoted servant; both knew it, and neither found anything wrong with it, just as generations of lower, middle, and high-class Brits never found anything wrong with it. At first Sam was devoted to Frodo as any really good servant would be. Later I believe it became a really intense brotherly kind of love. "Greater love hath no man than this: that he would lay down his life for his friend."
And of course Sam was afraid! He was the simplest of hobbits, the most home-loving, security-loving of hobbits. After looking into Galadriel's mirror, he knew well the impact of the Ring. How easily he could have turn around and run home, or stayed in Rivendell or Lothlorien! But Sam had that which was deeper than his fear: a knowledge of what was right, and a determination to do it. Perhaps his fear spurred him on to do what was right rather than fleeing from it. But courage is not the lack of fear; it is doing what needs to be done despite fear. So Sam was all of the above: a loyal servant and friend, purely scared, and purely brave. He would not have seen himself as brave, for his fear was always with him, but yet he still went on.

Aratlithiel · 06-12-2003, 10:32 AM

I don't think you're giving Frodo enough credit here. It seems to me that if Frodo did not consider Sam a friend, his treatment of him would have been quite different. Frodo was very careful at the beginning of the journey to make certain that Sam did not carry any more than his fair share - as were the other hobbits. Also, when they arrived at Crickhollow, Sam was treated to the luxury of a hot bath along with Pippin and Frodo while Merry and Fatty took care of dinner. Hardly normal treatment for a servant - if Sam were considered 'just a servant' and not a friend by the other hobbits, he most certainly would have been in the kitchen preparing a meal for all the others while they enjoyed the baths.

This sort of equal treatment is repeated throughout the book and is not the sort of behavior one would expect to find between master and servant or officer and enlisted man during Tolkien's time. The only 'servant' work that was expected of Sam was that which he expected of himself.

Yes, I think there is an ENORMOUS amount of hero-worship involved, but I also think there is a great love between the two that the Quest only enhanced.

Sam's heroism is a direct result of his love for Frodo and if not for the injuries and dangers Frodo faced, that heroism would never have come to the forefront. I don't care how loyal a SERVANT someone is, only a FRIEND would face a giant spider and sneak INTO a tower full of orcs instead of run screaming away. And if Frodo did not love Sam, he wouldn't have tried to leave him behind with the rest of the company @ Rauros. I don't believe for a minute that the term 'friend of friends' would commonly be used lightly between a master and a servant. In fact, I don't believe that anything Frodo said to Sam can be taken lightly. Frodo never allowed Sam to take a danger onto himself unless Sam physically pushed Frodo out of the way.

And Frodo reciprocated as much as his circumstances allowed - he also advanced on Shelob, taking the danger to himself first rather than sending Sam.

I don't think you can read these books and examine this relationship with a critical eye and come away thinking that this was merely a master/servant relationship. The words exchanged between the two and the actions taken to protect each other speaks of a great love and loyalty.

I think the main difference between the two is that Sam would give up his life for Frodo but he would not sacrifice Frodo for the Quest (note his refusal to remove the Ring from danger when he realized Frodo was alive and in the tower). Frodo, on the other hand, would give his life for Sam as well, but he would also sacrifice Sam for the Quest, albeit reluctantly. Sam was there for FRODO - Frodo was there for Middle earth. It seems to me that that's the only circumstance where the officer/enlisted man analogy fits.

arianrod · 06-13-2003, 11:28 PM

I think Luthien_Tinuviel spoke my mind for me. *applauds* Beautifully put, Luthien; I agree completely with every word you said. I try my best to act in all my friendships as selflessly and courageously as Sam acted in his relationship with Frodo. God knows if I succeed, but I try.

Quote:

Ignorant bliss.

here, here, Pukel-Man. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

06-14-2003, 05:56 AM

In my opinion Sam worships Frodo all the time. When they start their journey, Sam sees a kind of idol in Frodo. But as time went on, Sam becomes more and more secure of himself. He stays at Frodo's side, but not to admire him or to worship him, but to help him as a real close friend. Frodo is not the strong character he is at the beginning of the story, and Sam becomes stronger and stronger.

03-22-2003, 05:50 PM	#1
eldomeldo Pile O'Bones Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: wales Posts: 13	Sam, Loyal friend, bravest hobbit, or just scared I wonder if any of you have thought about Sam's part in the fellowship. He was very loyal to Frodo and i consider that he was also very brave, but was his loyalty out of his love for Frodo and because of their friendship, or was it because he was scared of what would happen if he did not follow his promise through. I have always felt a great deal of sympathy for poor Sam, as he was often on the receiving end of Frodo's anger, due to the power of the ring.

03-22-2003, 06:07 PM	#2
Ruler of the Frogs Animated Skeleton Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Minas Tirith Posts: 49	I personally admired Sam. That kind of loyalty to a friend is not one that you come across every day. He stuck through it until the end, and he was prepared to die on this quest, so he could follow his best friend with loyalty and trust. I do beleive though, that Sam was scared. He never showed it to Frodo, probably because he didn't want to get Frodo scared too. I think that Sam was truley a bit afraid, who wouldn't be? All his life he grew up in quiet Hobbiton, when all of sudden he's climbing up Mount Doom, being faced by orcs, everything! But I think that he was brave as well. 'Courage is not the abesense of fear, but the presense of fear and the will to go on.' Or something like that. Sam was brave, perhaps one of the bravest in the book. He was scared, terrified even, but he was loyal to Frodo and would follow him until death - therefore, Sam was very brave. __________________ What a joy to meet! We only wish to catch a fish, so juicy-sweet!

03-22-2003, 06:20 PM	#3
Silmarien Wight Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Lost but Found Posts: 199	I think ruler of the frogs has it the saying I've heard is 'Courage is not the abscence of fear but the belief that something is more important than fear'. Sam believed that the quest was more important. But I also think he was scared of what could happen if the ring wasn't destroyed. He decided to take the ring when he thought Frodo was dead, he knew that was more important his fear of whether this was the right thing to do. He was scared, but out of fear comes courage and bravery. __________________ Though here at journeys end I lie in dakness buried deep, beyond all towers strong and high beyond all mountains steep, above all shadows rides the Sun and Stars forever dwell:I will not say the Day is done nor bid the Stars farewell!

03-22-2003, 06:58 PM	#4
Luthien_ Tinuviel Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2002 Location: A very lovely tree-hut in the Chunnel. Posts: 804	I must say that Sam is my favorite LOTR character. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] He's just so brave, loyal, and trusting to Frodo. It continually amazes me that he has the loyalty and the strength of will to continue on his journey even when Frodo treats him like dirt because of the influence of the Ring. Even when Frodo gives up hope and becomes so weak that he can hardly carry on, Sam still hopes and diligently stands by Frodo and helps him in every way possible, nearly killing himself by giving what was left of the food and drink to Frodo. Even when Sam does finally despair, it is turned to new strength in him. He is willing to give his life for Frodo, even the wretched, wearied and changed Frodo which he now helped on the journey. Sam even gave up his precious pots sniff to lighten the load. Even when he knows (or thinks he knows) that he and Frodo are going to die once the Ring was destroyed, Sam still finds enough courage to mourn the loss of Frodo's finger and try to cheer him up. I believe that Sam, not Frodo, is the "main" character of LOTR. Sam is the last person mentioned, and the one of the first new characters we are introduced to. Sam is debatably the character who changes and learns the most one his journey. He went from being a simple gardener from a poor family, like his father before him, to becoming Mayor of Hobbiton seven times over, Counselor of the North-Kingdom, and famous throughout Middle-earth as a member of the Fellowship and the servant of Frodo Baggins. Sam is almost a role model to me. Such extreme loylty, such a sense of duty. I am proud that my best friend thinks I am somewhat like Sam. That really makes my day. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] How many of you would jump into a lake for your friend if you couldn't swim? Carry your friend up a mountain? Follow your friend into the unknown? Stick with your friend even after they treat a demented thing with an obssession for a ring better than you? Give your friend all your food and water? Be prepared to die for your friend and be at peace with the fact that you probably will? Not many people would do this. Sam does. It is for this reason that I love him more than any other LOTR character. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] (Sorry, that was really long). (edited for spelling errors) [ June 12, 2003: Message edited by: Luthien_ Tinuviel ] __________________ I am a nineteen-year-old nomad photographer who owns a lemonade stand. You know what? I love Mip.

03-22-2003, 07:55 PM	#5
Nurumaiel Vice of Twilight Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: on a mountain Posts: 1,121	It never once crossed my mind that Sam did what he did out of fear. Every word spoken, everything he did just said to me, "Bravery. Loyalty." I have a deep admiration for Sam, and this is way. I have always admired those who, despite all the dangers that stood in their way, remained faithful and loyal to their friends always, and who were brave enough to go on even when all seemed hopeless. I do think his loyalty was his love for Frodo. Their friendship is something I wish I could see more often, and indeed once, in this real world. Never have I seen a servant so devoted to his master, and indeed I have never seen a master who treated his servant like nothing other than his friend. Yes, Sam was afraid. But he was not afraid of a punishment that would come if he left Frodo, he feared for his master's safety, and for the safety of his Shire. It's my belief that Sam would have gone with Frodo even if the dangers were few and there was no need to. For Frodo, Sam did everything you could ask of a friend, and even what you would think is too much to ask of someone. And he wasn't asked... he just did it out of courage, loyalty, and a friendship deeper than any I have seen. EDIT Two quotes of Sam come to my mind... "If you don't come back, sir, then I shan't, that's certain. Don't you leave him! they said to me. Leave him! I said. I never mean to. I am going with him, if he climbs to the Moon, and if any of those Black Riders try to stop him, they'll have Sam Gamgee to reckon with, I said." "No, I'll go home by the long road with Mr. Frodo, or not at all." Both of those quotes clearly proclaim his loyalty and love for his dear master, and every time those words come up, I think of how like Frodo was to have a friend as faithful as Samwise Gamgee. [ March 22, 2003: Message edited by: Nurumaiel ] __________________ In the fury of the moment I can see the Master's hand in every leaf that trembles, in every grain of sand.

03-22-2003, 09:37 PM	#6
Eressië Ailin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Past the Point of No Return... Posts: 502	I think Sam did alot of what he did out of fear. Not just just fear of what would happen to him, he wasn't even thinking about himself when he said he would go to Mordor with Frodo, but out of fear for Frodo and The Shire. It just goes to show you how close the two were. Sam knew there was danger ahead of him, but he couldn't possibly imagine what kind of danger. For Sam, it probably would have been harder for him to stay in Shire, waiting for Frodo to come back. Sam wouldn't be able to let his friend face danger alone; he has to be there with him. I don't have a book here next to me (I know, it's sad), but in FoTR, Pippin says something about Sam 'getting rewarded for his cheek, instead of punished.' In my opinion, making the hobbits stay in the Shire would be a very harsh and cruel punishment. It would be like making them wait until their best friend dies. __________________ Holy angel, in Heaven blessed... My spirit longs with thee to rest! ~Faust Never judge a book by its movie. ~J. W. Eagan By the big slippers of big slipperdom! ~M. Gillenormand, Les Misérables My blog!

03-23-2003, 03:40 AM	#7
MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: San Francisco Posts: 573	Well, I never had thought of it as fear. A good thought but quickly rejected in my mind. I'm not one of those Sam fans, in fact sometimes I hate him, but that's another story. However, I doo admire a lot of his qualities and actions. I think that the fear is what made it so easy for him to step out of the Shire to follow Frodo. Of course he was loyal and brave. Those quotes Nurumaiel gave do clearly show his loyalty to Frodo, and his friendship to him also. However, even though he says it, doesn't mean it is so. He might say that but when the time comes he might not prove that thruthful to his word. It seemed hard for him to leave the Shire, even to follow Frodo. However, he still did. I think had he known the full dangers of taking up the quest he would have had a dilemma on his hands on whether to leave the Shire or to avoid the danger. His naive quality at that point allowed him to miss the realization of what he was getting into. And besides that, there's the fear of not obeying Gandalf's order to go with Frodo. I think his loyalty to Frodo was the real reason he went though, not fear. __________________ Do Not Touch -Willie

03-23-2003, 09:40 AM	#8
Feanor of the Peredhil La Belle Dame sans Merci Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: perpetual uncertainty Posts: 5,517	I fully believe that it was love, not fear that drove Sam on. Has nobody ever had a person in their life that they would be willing to die for? That they have given up things for? That they would be boiled alive for before they left alone to face the world? I don't know about anyone else, but I have. I have had people in my life that I'd cheerfully die for just so that they are able to continue their life. Even if they don't fully realize it. I believe that Sam loved Frodo that much that he was willing to go to Hell and back for him. I'm sure he was afraid, but fear is normal in situations like that. I think he just didn't want Frodo alone and without love in lands that he'd never seen, had only heard of. __________________ peace

03-23-2003, 12:31 PM	#9
Aratlithiel Wight Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 196	Perhaps it was both love and fear...afterall, wasn't Sam's greatest fear that he might somehow lose Frodo? Therefore, all his acts of bravery would be driven by his greatest fear. Ooh! I like that. __________________ - I must find the Mountain of Fire and cast the thing into the gulf of Doom. Gandalf said so. I do not think I shall ever get there. - Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup. - Where are we going?...And why am I in this handbasket?

03-29-2003, 02:42 AM	#11
Pukel-Man Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona, -East of Dunharrow Posts: 54	Ignorant bliss. __________________ This is not the time or the place to perform some kind of a half-assed autopsy on a fish... And I'm not going to stand here and see that thing cut open and see that little Kintner boy spill out all over the dock!-Mayor Vaughn

03-30-2003, 11:52 PM	#12
Thor Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 12	I get the impression that the success of Sam's part in the quest was due to a certain amount of blindness to the true dangers of the situation. He knew things were big and very scary but his love for his master may have helped to block out his understanding of the enormity of events around him. Being focussed on helping Frodo through everything confronting him would therefore take Sam's attention away from his own situation and in some way make it easier to be strong and carry on as the loyal servant. There is no doubt in my mind that all of Sam's actions are attributable to his love for Frodo. __________________ "It is plain indeed that in spite of later estrangement Hobbits are relatives of ours..."

03-31-2003, 02:13 AM	#14
Tar-Palantir Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: napa valley, ca Posts: 496	Well, it seems I'll have to mention what Mr. Frodo [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] has amzingly not commented on - Sam's unforgiving side. The diabolical drawback to the clingy loyal types is a mammoth disdain for any who dare oppose their side or 'master'. Sam is close to this. Remember how long it took to trust Strider? That was protectiveness to a fault that could have led to trouble. And then of course the most famous of examples - his chiding, demeaning and blindly abusive behavior towards Smeagol. What would possess him to treat another so callously? He could not forgive him. He could not see past the exterior as could Frodo with the result being a sorrowful sealing of Smeagol's fate. His chance at repentance smashed beyond recall because Sam had to protect his precious master. I am not saying I don't like Sam, I do, Frodo would never have made it without him. But there is always another side to the coin. I'd be interested to know why exactly they were such good friends. Frodo did not grow up in Hobbiton like Sam did and there were others he knew longer. I think it was some kind of hero worship scenario from early on. Everybody knew Bag-End was the top of the top (it would probably be on MTV Cribs today) and Sam was but an employee. Sam was his gardener, he had a job. What did Frodo do? What did Bilbo do? Were they the rich bachelors living in the lap of luxury that all the 'little people' (pun intended) wanted to be like or with? They throw the best parties and give out the best gifts. Throw on top of that Bilbo's fascinating stories of the Elves and I bet Sam was like a panting little pit bull: protecting his wonderful master, staying by his side, blind to oncoming danger, slow to let go, forgive or trust others. My favorite part of Sam is his accomplishments after the quest. After he and the other Hobbits came into their own. TP __________________ History shows again and again How nature points up the folly of men Go, go, Godzilla!

06-11-2003, 08:14 PM	#17
Gorwingel Beholder of the Mists Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Somewhere in the Northwest... for now Posts: 1,419	Yeah, I have to kind of agree that what he did was not really out of friendship. Let's just look at how their relationship was before the events of the Ring. To me they were not really serious buddies in most ways. Sam was mainly just the servent that would come over and do his work, sometimes say hi to his employer (or master) and then go home. But he was still loyal to him, he would do anything. I wish that this had all been done through friendship, but I just don't think that is true. I don't think he did it out of fear because even midway through the journey I don't think he really knew what was going on. I think it was just out of loyalty, a loyalty that sadly even Frodo did not show in return. __________________ Wanted - Wonderfully witty quote that consists of pure brilliance

06-11-2003, 08:52 PM	#18
Samwise Gamgee Haunting Spirit Join Date: May 2003 Location: USA Posts: 52	It was definitely a loyalty. HE worshiped frodo, but they were not great friends (although they were "on friendly terms") until, probably when Frodo finally realizes that he needs sam at the boats. In TTT when Frodo calls Sam friend of friends, their relationship has been established as something deeper. But I do believe it was more adoration on sam's part than mutual love in the beginning Also, when sam says "I'd go with him to the moon and back," that is not really a promise, and it was entirely volutary, whatever the case. __________________ "Good bye, master, my dear! Forgive your Sam. He'll come back to this spot when the job's done - if he manages it." -TTT Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at the testing point - Lewis

06-11-2003, 09:43 PM	#19
Corwyn Celesil Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: The House of the Fountain, Gondolin Posts: 57	Ah, why did Sam go? Why did he do what he did? First it was duty, I believe. Tolkien had an intrisically British worldview, mainly pre-WWII worldview since that was when he was a child and young man, and his automatic views on masters and servants came out in it. Mister Frodo was the master, Sam was the epitome of the devoted servant; both knew it, and neither found anything wrong with it, just as generations of lower, middle, and high-class Brits never found anything wrong with it. At first Sam was devoted to Frodo as any really good servant would be. Later I believe it became a really intense brotherly kind of love. "Greater love hath no man than this: that he would lay down his life for his friend." And of course Sam was afraid! He was the simplest of hobbits, the most home-loving, security-loving of hobbits. After looking into Galadriel's mirror, he knew well the impact of the Ring. How easily he could have turn around and run home, or stayed in Rivendell or Lothlorien! But Sam had that which was deeper than his fear: a knowledge of what was right, and a determination to do it. Perhaps his fear spurred him on to do what was right rather than fleeing from it. But courage is not the lack of fear; it is doing what needs to be done despite fear. So Sam was all of the above: a loyal servant and friend, purely scared, and purely brave. He would not have seen himself as brave, for his fear was always with him, but yet he still went on. __________________ Then came there from the south of the city the people of the Fountain, and Ecthelion was their lord, and silver and diamonds were their delight; and swords very long and bright and pale did they wield . . .

06-12-2003, 10:32 AM	#20
Aratlithiel Wight Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 196	I don't think you're giving Frodo enough credit here. It seems to me that if Frodo did not consider Sam a friend, his treatment of him would have been quite different. Frodo was very careful at the beginning of the journey to make certain that Sam did not carry any more than his fair share - as were the other hobbits. Also, when they arrived at Crickhollow, Sam was treated to the luxury of a hot bath along with Pippin and Frodo while Merry and Fatty took care of dinner. Hardly normal treatment for a servant - if Sam were considered 'just a servant' and not a friend by the other hobbits, he most certainly would have been in the kitchen preparing a meal for all the others while they enjoyed the baths. This sort of equal treatment is repeated throughout the book and is not the sort of behavior one would expect to find between master and servant or officer and enlisted man during Tolkien's time. The only 'servant' work that was expected of Sam was that which he expected of himself. Yes, I think there is an ENORMOUS amount of hero-worship involved, but I also think there is a great love between the two that the Quest only enhanced. Sam's heroism is a direct result of his love for Frodo and if not for the injuries and dangers Frodo faced, that heroism would never have come to the forefront. I don't care how loyal a SERVANT someone is, only a FRIEND would face a giant spider and sneak INTO a tower full of orcs instead of run screaming away. And if Frodo did not love Sam, he wouldn't have tried to leave him behind with the rest of the company @ Rauros. I don't believe for a minute that the term 'friend of friends' would commonly be used lightly between a master and a servant. In fact, I don't believe that anything Frodo said to Sam can be taken lightly. Frodo never allowed Sam to take a danger onto himself unless Sam physically pushed Frodo out of the way. And Frodo reciprocated as much as his circumstances allowed - he also advanced on Shelob, taking the danger to himself first rather than sending Sam. I don't think you can read these books and examine this relationship with a critical eye and come away thinking that this was merely a master/servant relationship. The words exchanged between the two and the actions taken to protect each other speaks of a great love and loyalty. I think the main difference between the two is that Sam would give up his life for Frodo but he would not sacrifice Frodo for the Quest (note his refusal to remove the Ring from danger when he realized Frodo was alive and in the tower). Frodo, on the other hand, would give his life for Sam as well, but he would also sacrifice Sam for the Quest, albeit reluctantly. Sam was there for FRODO - Frodo was there for Middle earth. It seems to me that that's the only circumstance where the officer/enlisted man analogy fits. __________________ - I must find the Mountain of Fire and cast the thing into the gulf of Doom. Gandalf said so. I do not think I shall ever get there. - Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup. - Where are we going?...And why am I in this handbasket?

06-14-2003, 05:56 AM	#22
Deagol Guest Posts: n/a	In my opinion Sam worships Frodo all the time. When they start their journey, Sam sees a kind of idol in Frodo. But as time went on, Sam becomes more and more secure of himself. He stays at Frodo's side, but not to admire him or to worship him, but to help him as a real close friend. Frodo is not the strong character he is at the beginning of the story, and Sam becomes stronger and stronger.