Ancient Civilisations...Babaloynia? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Iargwath · 09-11-2002, 04:04 AM

Is there any proof that Tolkien has used ideas of older civilisation ie Babaloniya, Assyria and the Sumarians...in his books. The statues of Aragonath are a pretty good example of what was used in Assyria...The winged bull/king (guardians which dettered ppl) Much like the stance of the statues...hands stopping...And tengwar quenya looks similar to babaloynian script...
Here is a link to Babaloniyan or Assyrian script:
http://members.aol.com/assyrianme/aramaic/aramaic.html

There are only *some* letters which have a slight resemblance...but the sounds of elvish sound very much alike the Babaloniyan language...Iastr (as in the istari) and ishtar (babaloniyan goddess) the sounds are the same...
Hmmm so if anybody has a comment or has info on this fact...it will be great to read your posts [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

red · 09-11-2002, 06:54 AM

réd, the Assyrian, will keep an eye on this thread...

lathspell · 09-11-2002, 09:40 AM

'Two eyes, as often as I can spare them' [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Eol · 09-11-2002, 09:56 AM

Hmmmm, do I smell a hunt? Heh, I am 100 percent sure he may have gotten some ideas from there, thought during his time, the information would be VERY limited except for what is covered with the bible. He was more into the northern european mythos and the classics.

Joy · 09-16-2002, 01:35 AM

If I remember right, the word Nazgul comes from the Arabic. I wish I could quote the source on that, but I will try to find it.

There is one old legend that is covered, I don't know if that is the right word or not, but anyway... Alantis.

Have you read the Silmarillion?? If so, not the silmarlities between Numenor and Atlantis.

Iargwath · 09-16-2002, 03:53 AM

Yes im currently reading the Sil...and i havent paid much attention to the similarities between the lost city of Atlantis and Numenor...But i'll be sure to look into it. My mother told me that Nahar (i think its a name of a horse) means sunlight in arabic [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Tirned Tinnu · 09-16-2002, 08:27 AM

How wonderful! TY on the translation of Nahar.
I'll say one thing - that I cannot see that Tolkien in his creation of The Tenguar might have failed to study The Codecs(sic?) or ancient forms of writing such as sanscrit.
If one looks at the scrolls and at the Rosetta Stone, one will see the forms of writing that were being studied during WW2.
Add in a bit of Egyptian, a bit if The Ogham, and you've got it. I seriously direct you to look these up on the web. I shall include a good site in this thread as soon as I have found one. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
Take a look at this, it's a simplified version of what was found on the rosetta stone. Top is English, middle, Egyptian, bottom, Greek.
little translator chart
Next I'll find a picture of the codex...
A chart of Uncial Codex
And here, a sample page of codex:
piece of ancient paper showing codex
now, I see that this does not go far enough back to prove Assyrian or Babalonian origins, but I can tell you that Tolkien did study Persian poetry, and I will find you a copy of Rustam and Sohrab, so that you can see it for yourself.
Rustam and Sohrab
That site is hard to read, I know there is another with just the text somewhere. If I find it again, I'll post it. Notice that there is a famous horse depicted in the story! (Sohrab also mean shining...strange parallel there.) Anyway, as soon as I've stumbled over proofs of Assyrian or Babalonian I will include them. For now, the above should keep you well occupied. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[ September 16, 2002: Message edited by: Tirned Tinnu ]

09-11-2002, 04:04 AM	#1
Iargwath Wight Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 236	Ancient Civilisations...Babaloynia? Is there any proof that Tolkien has used ideas of older civilisation ie Babaloniya, Assyria and the Sumarians...in his books. The statues of Aragonath are a pretty good example of what was used in Assyria...The winged bull/king (guardians which dettered ppl) Much like the stance of the statues...hands stopping...And tengwar quenya looks similar to babaloynian script... Here is a link to Babaloniyan or Assyrian script: http://members.aol.com/assyrianme/aramaic/aramaic.html There are only some letters which have a slight resemblance...but the sounds of elvish sound very much alike the Babaloniyan language...Iastr (as in the istari) and ishtar (babaloniyan goddess) the sounds are the same... Hmmm so if anybody has a comment or has info on this fact...it will be great to read your posts [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ 'I waited patiently for the Lord; and He inclined to me, and heard my cry'-Psalm 40 My M-e Forum

09-11-2002, 06:54 AM	#2
red Spirit of Mischief Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Land of the free and home of the brave Posts: 366	réd, the Assyrian, will keep an eye on this thread... __________________ "Cats are like greatness: Some people are born into cat-loving families, some achieve cats, and some have cats thrust upon them." -William H. A. Carr

09-11-2002, 09:40 AM	#3
lathspell Regenerating Ringkeeper Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Holland Posts: 757	'Two eyes, as often as I can spare them' [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] __________________ 'You?' cried Frodo. 'Yes, I, Gandalf the Grey,' said the wizard solemnly. 'There are many powers in the world, for good or for evil. Some are greater than I am. Against some I have not yet been measured. But my time is coming.'

09-11-2002, 09:56 AM	#4
Eol Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: The Pacific Northwest - Tir Nan Og Posts: 306	Hmmmm, do I smell a hunt? Heh, I am 100 percent sure he may have gotten some ideas from there, thought during his time, the information would be VERY limited except for what is covered with the bible. He was more into the northern european mythos and the classics. __________________ Mes sana in corpec sano- (lt.) A sound mind in a sound body

09-16-2002, 01:35 AM	#5
Joy Spirit of a Warrior Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Wandering Posts: 1,012	If I remember right, the word Nazgul comes from the Arabic. I wish I could quote the source on that, but I will try to find it. There is one old legend that is covered, I don't know if that is the right word or not, but anyway... Alantis. Have you read the Silmarillion?? If so, not the silmarlities between Numenor and Atlantis. __________________ God bless, Joy KingdomWarrior@hotmail.com http://kingdomWarrior.jlym.com As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God. My soul thirsteth for God, for the living God: when shall I come and appear before God?

09-16-2002, 03:53 AM	#6
Iargwath Wight Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 236	Yes im currently reading the Sil...and i havent paid much attention to the similarities between the lost city of Atlantis and Numenor...But i'll be sure to look into it. My mother told me that Nahar (i think its a name of a horse) means sunlight in arabic [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ 'I waited patiently for the Lord; and He inclined to me, and heard my cry'-Psalm 40 My M-e Forum

09-16-2002, 08:27 AM	#7
Tirned Tinnu Wight Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Patchogue NY Posts: 158	How wonderful! TY on the translation of Nahar. I'll say one thing - that I cannot see that Tolkien in his creation of The Tenguar might have failed to study The Codecs(sic?) or ancient forms of writing such as sanscrit. If one looks at the scrolls and at the Rosetta Stone, one will see the forms of writing that were being studied during WW2. Add in a bit of Egyptian, a bit if The Ogham, and you've got it. I seriously direct you to look these up on the web. I shall include a good site in this thread as soon as I have found one. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] Take a look at this, it's a simplified version of what was found on the rosetta stone. Top is English, middle, Egyptian, bottom, Greek. little translator chart Next I'll find a picture of the codex... A chart of Uncial Codex And here, a sample page of codex: piece of ancient paper showing codex now, I see that this does not go far enough back to prove Assyrian or Babalonian origins, but I can tell you that Tolkien did study Persian poetry, and I will find you a copy of Rustam and Sohrab, so that you can see it for yourself. Rustam and Sohrab That site is hard to read, I know there is another with just the text somewhere. If I find it again, I'll post it. Notice that there is a famous horse depicted in the story! (Sohrab also mean shining...strange parallel there.) Anyway, as soon as I've stumbled over proofs of Assyrian or Babalonian I will include them. For now, the above should keep you well occupied. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] [ September 16, 2002: Message edited by: Tirned Tinnu ] __________________ 'Perilous indeed,' said Aragorn, 'fair and perilous; but only evil need fear it, or those who bring some evil with them. Follow me!'