Decisive proof that Balrogs had wings! - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Keeper of Dol Guldur · 04-09-2002, 03:13 PM

I have here, absolute proof that balrogs had wings. In the chapter The Great River, when the wraith on wings arrived over the east bank, Gimli specifically stated, "...too much it reminded me of the Shadow of Moria, the shadow of the Balrog." These were of course described as having bat-like wings. Bat-like wings? What? Are you hearing this? Then of course Frodo went on about it being cold and deathlike instead of fiery and demonic. But as long as Gimli can see a gigantic fiery creature, with a dark cave as a background, I'm going to trust his vision and not how all you "Anti-wingists" interpret the story. Why oh why would a winged creature remind him of a Balrog? Because the balrog had wings of course. And don't try to deny it by saying that the balrog was like shadow and the creature was shadow against the sky. He didn't mean that. Definitely not. After all, the Balrog of Khazad Dum lit up with fire and wasn't dark for as long, and if it were the case that he meant that, he would have said, "that reminded me a little of the shadow of Moria," not too much. Boom, think about that. And if you'd like to argue it, go ahead. I think a few of us "Pro-wingers" are up to the challenge.

Fingolfin of the Noldor · 04-09-2002, 03:44 PM

Gimli said it reminded him of the "shadow of the balrog"! This specific line has been dismantled, deconstructed and disected for years it is harly "proof"

Keeper of Dol Guldur · 04-09-2002, 03:49 PM

I know, he said that, but he didn't specifically mean the shadow that makes up the Balrog's form, he spoke at a surname almost. A title: the shadow of Moria, the shadow of the Balrog. He referred to its evil nature and what it was, not it's physicality. Plus, how can a bat-winged demonic looking cold creature remind him too much of a balrog if they didn't have wings? They would have to look similar in shape. Otherwise he wouldn't have said it, because it's shadow was nothing compared to the balrog, simply a sillhouette in the moonlight, against a dark sky-not against the pitch darkness of Moria. The pro wing debate is still leaning toward winged balrogs.

Keeper of Dol Guldur · 04-09-2002, 03:52 PM

By the way, what do you people have against winged balrogs anyway? Just because some of the material is uncertain doesn't mean they didn't, and it is many a tolkienite that simply like the idea of wings better because it is cooler. Much, much, much, cooler. Give me two good reasons why it is cooler without wings.

Gimli Son Of Gloin · 04-09-2002, 04:59 PM

I'm not gonna give you the reasons, but, when aragorn, Gimli, and legolas reunite with Gandalf in Fangorn, Gandalf says he fell into abyss with the barlog.When they hit the water he said it turned into a slimy thing. Gimli said he saw a flying barlog by your point of view, further in your interpertation, you said he said it was firey. How could something slimy that was fighting with Gandalf be seen fiery flying over Gimli at the same time.
BTW, I think it would be pretty cool if barlogs had wings [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Gimli Son Of Gloin · 04-09-2002, 05:00 PM

Balrog*

04-09-2002, 05:17 PM

Just because one has wings does not mean it can fly. Penguin, Ostrich, Emu, Dodo, are all examples. And a creature like a balrog is not built for flight. Nontheless, you can not be sure whether a balrog had wings or not.

[ April 09, 2002: Message edited by: Warlord_of_Blood ]

Fingolfin of the Noldor · 04-09-2002, 05:45 PM

Gimli was comparing the "shadows" not the forms. Balrogs are cloaked in shadow according the the latter versions of those traditions presented in the silmarillion. See the begining of Morgoth's RIng for more information.

as for why i am against the "winged" notion plz read my post on this page entitled "On Balrogs.."

here is the url:
http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/u...&f=10&t=000137

Fingolfin of the Noldor · 04-09-2002, 05:48 PM

Quote:

'I cannot,' said Gimli. `But I am glad that the shadow came no nearer. I liked it not at all. Too much it reminded me of the shadow IN Moria--the shadow of the Balrog,' he ended in a whisper.

the shadow in moria-[which was]-the shadow of the Balrog

[ April 09, 2002: Message edited by: Fingolfin of the Noldor ]

Ahanarion · 04-09-2002, 07:44 PM

Oh the humanity! Why do people keep bringing up the topics from hell?

***Mithadan*** · 04-10-2002, 07:03 AM

Although Balrog wings is one of the most frequently debated issues in Tolkien lore, there are many newcomers who have not seen these debates and occaisionally someone comes up with a new or well-organized/researched argument such as the one posted by Fingolfin which was recently revived. For all who have been down this road before (and oh! do my feet ache) please have a bit of patience.

04-09-2002, 03:13 PM	#1
Keeper of Dol Guldur Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: 315, CNY Boys and girls. Posts: 405	Decisive proof that Balrogs had wings! I have here, absolute proof that balrogs had wings. In the chapter The Great River, when the wraith on wings arrived over the east bank, Gimli specifically stated, "...too much it reminded me of the Shadow of Moria, the shadow of the Balrog." These were of course described as having bat-like wings. Bat-like wings? What? Are you hearing this? Then of course Frodo went on about it being cold and deathlike instead of fiery and demonic. But as long as Gimli can see a gigantic fiery creature, with a dark cave as a background, I'm going to trust his vision and not how all you "Anti-wingists" interpret the story. Why oh why would a winged creature remind him of a Balrog? Because the balrog had wings of course. And don't try to deny it by saying that the balrog was like shadow and the creature was shadow against the sky. He didn't mean that. Definitely not. After all, the Balrog of Khazad Dum lit up with fire and wasn't dark for as long, and if it were the case that he meant that, he would have said, "that reminded me a little of the shadow of Moria," not too much. Boom, think about that. And if you'd like to argue it, go ahead. I think a few of us "Pro-wingers" are up to the challenge. __________________ "I come from yonder...Have you seen Baggins? Baggins has left, he is coming. He is not far away. I wish to find him. If he passes will you tell me? I will come back with gold." - Khamul the Easterling

04-09-2002, 03:44 PM	#2
Fingolfin of the Noldor Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: NH Posts: 63	Gimli said it reminded him of the "shadow of the balrog"! This specific line has been dismantled, deconstructed and disected for years it is harly "proof" __________________ Sailhand of the Mariners' Guild

04-09-2002, 03:49 PM	#3
Keeper of Dol Guldur Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: 315, CNY Boys and girls. Posts: 405	I know, he said that, but he didn't specifically mean the shadow that makes up the Balrog's form, he spoke at a surname almost. A title: the shadow of Moria, the shadow of the Balrog. He referred to its evil nature and what it was, not it's physicality. Plus, how can a bat-winged demonic looking cold creature remind him too much of a balrog if they didn't have wings? They would have to look similar in shape. Otherwise he wouldn't have said it, because it's shadow was nothing compared to the balrog, simply a sillhouette in the moonlight, against a dark sky-not against the pitch darkness of Moria. The pro wing debate is still leaning toward winged balrogs. __________________ "I come from yonder...Have you seen Baggins? Baggins has left, he is coming. He is not far away. I wish to find him. If he passes will you tell me? I will come back with gold." - Khamul the Easterling

04-09-2002, 03:52 PM	#4
Keeper of Dol Guldur Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: 315, CNY Boys and girls. Posts: 405	By the way, what do you people have against winged balrogs anyway? Just because some of the material is uncertain doesn't mean they didn't, and it is many a tolkienite that simply like the idea of wings better because it is cooler. Much, much, much, cooler. Give me two good reasons why it is cooler without wings. __________________ "I come from yonder...Have you seen Baggins? Baggins has left, he is coming. He is not far away. I wish to find him. If he passes will you tell me? I will come back with gold." - Khamul the Easterling

04-09-2002, 04:59 PM	#5
Gimli Son Of Gloin Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: The Halls of Montezuma, and the Shores of Tripoli Posts: 495	I'm not gonna give you the reasons, but, when aragorn, Gimli, and legolas reunite with Gandalf in Fangorn, Gandalf says he fell into abyss with the barlog.When they hit the water he said it turned into a slimy thing. Gimli said he saw a flying barlog by your point of view, further in your interpertation, you said he said it was firey. How could something slimy that was fighting with Gandalf be seen fiery flying over Gimli at the same time. BTW, I think it would be pretty cool if barlogs had wings [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] __________________ The Few, the Proud, the Marines.

04-09-2002, 05:00 PM	#6
Gimli Son Of Gloin Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: The Halls of Montezuma, and the Shores of Tripoli Posts: 495	Balrog* __________________ The Few, the Proud, the Marines.

04-09-2002, 05:17 PM	#7
tim Prichard Guest Posts: n/a	Just because one has wings does not mean it can fly. Penguin, Ostrich, Emu, Dodo, are all examples. And a creature like a balrog is not built for flight. Nontheless, you can not be sure whether a balrog had wings or not. [ April 09, 2002: Message edited by: Warlord_of_Blood ]

04-09-2002, 05:45 PM	#8
Fingolfin of the Noldor Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: NH Posts: 63	Gimli was comparing the "shadows" not the forms. Balrogs are cloaked in shadow according the the latter versions of those traditions presented in the silmarillion. See the begining of Morgoth's RIng for more information. as for why i am against the "winged" notion plz read my post on this page entitled "On Balrogs.." here is the url: http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/u...&f=10&t=000137 __________________ Sailhand of the Mariners' Guild

04-09-2002, 07:44 PM	#10
Ahanarion Haunting Spirit Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Tirion upon Tuna Posts: 94	Oh the humanity! Why do people keep bringing up the topics from hell? __________________ Ohtari i Noldor Hosta!

04-10-2002, 07:03 AM	#11
*Mithadan* Spirit of Mist Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Tol Eressea Posts: 3,383	Although Balrog wings is one of the most frequently debated issues in Tolkien lore, there are many newcomers who have not seen these debates and occaisionally someone comes up with a new or well-organized/researched argument such as the one posted by Fingolfin which was recently revived. For all who have been down this road before (and oh! do my feet ache) please have a bit of patience. __________________ Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land.