Reclaiming a Throne

[The Perky Ent]

In Arda, there were 6 elf kings: Finwe, Feanor, Fingolfin, Fingon, Turgon, and Ereinion Gil-galad. After the death of Gil-Galad, the title was never used. According to the system, Elrond, great-grandson of Turgon, would be next in line to inherit the kingship by the Third Age, as the grandson of Turgon, Earendil, doesn't live in Middle Earth. Since Elrond never became king, the title ended, but not the line. Many Noldo still lived, either in Endor, Middle Earth, or Aman. In Valinor, Finarfin, youngest son of Finwë, ruled the Noldo, as he didn't follow Feanor or Fingolfin into Middle Earth. My question is, after Elrond departed from Middle Earth to Valinor, would he remove Finarfin of his power and reclaim the title of King of the Noldor, as the people were united there?

[Hookbill the Goomba]

Good question,

From what I know of the character of Elrond I do not think he would have. Firstly is he bound by the curse of Feanor (Honestly I cannot remember, I know that Galadriel was, but "Passed the Test" and so could go to Valinor)? Even if he is not then I guess that being of that kinship many would not have accepted him as king, even if he had single headedly taken the ring and threw it into mount doom after killing all nine nazgul and many other grand deeds that I cannot think of now (But this would make LotR a much less interesting story). I think the elves may have been a little sore still about Feanor and his whole affair.
I think that the elves may begrudge him the kingship, also I do not think Elrond would have wanted to BE king anyway. He'd probably find a house not unlike Rivendell and live there.

However that leads on to the question, IF he was offered the kingship and passed it by, would Elodan or Elhohir (Whichever was eldest) take the King ship? I think they would, Perhaps having seen Aragorn in his Kingly light may have made them fancy their hand at being a lord. Or perhaps I am going mad.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Was there an elvish Salic Law? If the twins turned it down, could Arwen have been Queen, married, say, Glorfindel, then one of their daughters marry Aragorn?
And was Elrond under the Ban? He obviously didn't take the oath of Feanor.

[The Perky Ent]

I have no doubt that he'd find an abode similar to Rivendell. As for the grudge, I think after around 7,045 years, they'd get over it. And as for Elladan and Elrohir, Elrond's twin sons, their choice to remain or depart was never known, but I think if they did go, they would not become kings. Definitly nobility, but for such inseperable elfs like Elladan and Elrohir, unless there's the possibility of having two kings at the same time, they wouldn't take different paths.

[The Perky Ent]

Um...Tuor? Arwen chose mortality, remember? She had to option to remain of the elven kind, and marry Glorfindel and become Queen, but she didn't. It's crying over spilled milk. And I don't think Elrond was as subject to it as Galadriel was.

[Hookbill the Goomba]

I think we should take it as read that he was speaking hypothetically.
So, IF Arwen had not married Aragorn and gone to Valinor instead.... and so on... Correct me If I'm wrong, Tuor.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Yep. A little "counterfactual" story line. Of course, would JRRT then demote Arwen to 3rd cutest elf so Aragorn gets the second?

[Kuruharan]

To answer the original question, no he would not have been eligible. Finarfin was Elrond's superior in seniority, status, lineage, and claim. There would be no question of Elrond becoming king of anything. The only claim to being king that he had was king of the Noldor in Middle-earth. The title would not transfer from Middle-earth to Valinor.

[Fingolfin II]

Was Finarfin his superior in lineage? I agree that he is more directly descended from Finwe than Elrond (and for that reason alone he is more eligible to rule in Valinor than Elrond), but Elrond was descended from the Teleri High King and a Maia, so I would have thought that would make him higher in lineage. However, I'm not too sure about what constitutes higher lineage, so I'm probably wrong on that. Anyway, we have seen that you do not need to be the oldest heir to become High King (for example, Turgon becoming High King instead of Gil-galad; besides, Finarfin is much older than Elrond and the rightful High King of the Noldor in Valinor).

Hookbill the Goomba asked:

However that leads on to the question, IF he was offered the kingship and passed it by, would Elodan or Elhohir (Whichever was eldest) take the King ship? I think they would, Perhaps having seen Aragorn in his Kingly light may have made them fancy their hand at being a lord. Or perhaps I am going mad.

As Perky said, we never find out about Elladan and Elrohir's final choice- to stay and die in Middle-Earth or pass over the Sea. However, what is interesting is that according to the Encyclopedia of Arda, Eldarion becomes the ruler of all the Elf-lands in Middle-Earth when Aragorn dies, because of his descent from Elrond. However, Arwen is the youngest child of Elrond, so shouldn't it pass to Elladan and Elrohir, who are the eldest children of Elrond? I have a few alternative theories as to what has happened here-

1) Elladan and Elrohir refused the rule of the Elf-lands in Middle-Earth, thus it passed to Eldarion, the last male heir of Elrond and Elros.

2) Elladan and Elrohir had already died in Middle-Earth, so that there was no question of who was the rightful lord of the remaining Elf-lands.

3) Elladan and Elrohir passed over Sea to join Elrond and Celebrian.

(Note that whether Eldarion's claims to the lordship of the remaining Elf-lands in Middle-Earth are strong enough to make him king of The Wood of Greenleaves - Mirkwood - in place of Thranduil are not taken into account here.)

Celeborn has relinquished the lordship of Lothlorien after he takes up his abode with the sons of Elrond in Rivendell after Galadriel passes West, so he is certainly discounted from the Kingship of the Elves in Middle-Earth (though technically, if he wanted, he could have been High-King of the Teleri, because of his descent through Elmo).

In a more direct answer to your question, Hookbill, I doubt Elladan and Elrohir would have accepted the Kingship if Elrond refused it (if they were still alive, or hadn't passed over Sea), because their father did not want that title, for one reason. Another more important reason is that we have seen that when a father abdicates, usually the claim to his son is also waved (except when the Kings of Men in Numenor and Gondor abdicated to their sons), an example being when Maedhros relinquished his claim to the High Kingship to Fingolfin, it passed from him and any descendants of Feanor (i.e. Maglor and Celebrimbor) that were alive in the Second Age to descendants of Fingolfin (Gil-galad being the last High King of the Noldor in Middle-Earth), so if Elrond refused it, I don't think Elladan and Elrohir would have accepted it. Equally, I don't think they would have allowed a Man to rule over them either, so I think that the third of my theories that I have put forward to you is the most likely to be correct, but we'll never know.

[Kuruharan]

I agree that he is more directly descended from Finwe than Elrond

That would give him superior lineage regarding becoming High King of the Noldor, which was the issue.

Anyway, we have seen that you do not need to be the oldest heir to become High King...Turgon becoming High King instead of Gil-galad

Please allow me to say, "Huh?"

Turgon was born in Valinor during the Chaining of Melkor. Gil-Galad was born in Hithlum considerably later. In this context it seems that you do need to be the oldest heir to become High King of the Noldor for in this case it did not pass directly from father to son.

[Fingolfin II]

Whoops, I seem to have had that the other way around- what I meant was that Gil-galad was the son of Fingon and therefore he should have become king before Turgon, but he didn't as he was too young.

[Evisse the Blue]

Eldarion becomes the ruler of all the Elf-lands in Middle-Earth when Aragorn dies

That would mean that in the Fourth Age all Middle Earth was ruled by him, except for Rohan and the Shire. Freaky, really...
And after he died / relinquished power, did his heir rule over the Elf-lands as well? Assuming there were still Elf-lands to speak of...

[Tuor of Gondolin]

I don't believe Aragorn's rule extended to Rhovannion, or to the far east and south. One can imagine Gondor influence fairly quickly contracting east of the Anduin, with perhaps South Gondor again "a debatable land."

[Voralphion]

Firstly, Elrond could never have become high king as he was descended from Turgon, (and hence Finwe) through a female line, ie Idril. I'm sure I've seen that for the kingship the descent has to be a direct male descent. As to what would have happened in Valinor in respect to Finarfin, Finarfin was never king of the noldor in Valinor, it is just said that he ruled the remnant of the Noldor he never took the title of king.

From what I know of the character of Elrond I do not think he would have. Firstly is he bound by the curse of Feanor

No he wasn't subject to any ban, as he didn't have anything to do with the rebellion of the noldor as he wasn't born yet. Galadriel was subject to a ban because she was prominant in the rebellion.

[Mithalwen]

Don't forget that various previous kings may well have been released from Mandos by that point .....it would have been hard to imagine Gil-Galad being held very long since he was born in Middle Earth wasn't he? And basically spent his entire life fighting Sauron and building links between the Edain and the Eldar.... We know that Finrod "walks with his father" ....... would not Fingolfin's valour have earned him also swift release?

[The Perky Ent]

True, but then there's the chance there never will be another king. For example, if Mandos decided, "Hey, that dude Finwe was really brave. He deserves to go back" then Finwe could become king and deny all of his heirs. I don't think that would be the case. And Voralphion, if only male decendants can become king, explain the Kings and Queens of Numenor The elfs could have easily done what Tar-Aldarion did and change the rules of sucession.

[Voralphion]

And Voralphion, if only male decendants can become king, explain the Kings and Queens of Numenor The elfs could have easily done what Tar-Aldarion did and change the rules of sucession

True they could have, but they didn't.
Anyway, by the time of the third age, a high king of the noldor probably wasn't necessary. The title of high king came about due to the fact that the noldor needed a united resistance against morgoth. After morgoth was overthrown Gil Galad remained so he kept his title. After the last alliance both Morgoth and sauron were overthrown and the elves had no real enemy (at that time anyway) so the position of high king was no longer needed in order to lead a united resistance.
The title of high king was only used in middle earth, and so anyone released from mandos would not be a contender for the position. Anyway, Finwe was never coming out so the only one who could claim leadership of the noldor was Fingolfin.

[Kuruharan]

it is just said that he ruled the remnant of the Noldor

Actually, that is a very good point, one I’d overlooked, at least so far as Finarfin never explicitly being referred to as king. However, this brings up the whole tangle of potential rulers that others have already alluded to.

True they could have, but they didn't.

Are you reasoning from some particular evidence, or simply from the fact that we don’t know about it happening?

Anyway, by the time of the third age, a high king of the noldor probably wasn't necessary. The title of high king came about due to the fact that the noldor needed a united resistance against morgoth. After morgoth was overthrown Gil Galad remained so he kept his title. After the last alliance both Morgoth and sauron were overthrown and the elves had no real enemy (at that time anyway) so the position of high king was no longer needed in order to lead a united resistance.

There are a few problems with this. The term “High King” was not explicitly used in Valinor because there was only one king of the Noldor, (or Vanyar, or Teleri). However, the position of king of the Noldor existed in Valinor before the rebellion and presumably after the exiles started returning. Ingwe (for instance) was not dethroned just because Morgoth and/or Sauron was overthrown. The position was one of great honor and stature. Obviously in Valinor there would be little need of a king for military purposes. The king was probably the symbolic head of the people. There is no reason to suppose the office was discontinued.

Anyway, Finwe was never coming out so the only one who could claim leadership of the noldor was Fingolfin.

I may have missed something somewhere, but I did not know that any extraordinary prohibition had been placed on Finwe.

[Fingolfin II]

I may have missed something somewhere, but I did not know that any extraordinary prohibition had been placed on Finwe.

I think that it is said in 'Laws and Customs of the Eldar' (Morgoth's Ring- HoME series) that Finwe could not leave Mandos, since Miriel has chosen to leave, and therefore if Finwe leaves then he would have two wives; something that is not allowed by the Eldar. Thus is he can't leave Mandos, he obviously can't rule the Noldor in Valinor.

[Kuruharan]

Ah, now that you mention it that does sound vaguely familiar.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

And Voralphion, if only male decendants can become king, explain the Kings and Queens of Numenor The elfs could have easily done what Tar-Aldarion did and change the rules of sucession. (Perky Ent)

Could a Noldor High-King have changed the laws of succession? Let's look at how Tar-Aldarion changed the Númenórean system.

His only child is a daughter. He loves his daughter, so he changes the laws. The people weren't upset. Ergo, the changed rules remain.

Would that same series of events happen to a Elven King? Not yet, so the High-Kingship still passes through male lines. Gil-galad didn't change it in favour of Elrond, despite the fact that he's heirless, and he's going into battle.

Now that I think of it, if Elves pass Ruler-ship through female lines, then Galadriel, cousin of Turgon, would be ruler after Gil-galad. Not Elrond.


About the original question, I found this tidbit in the King Elrond? thread.

It is possible that Elrond did not want the kingship, and any such title would have been purely nominal after the death of Gil-galad. It is also noted in The Problem of Ros in PoME that Elrond actually prefered to reckon his lineage to Thingol instead of Turgon. (Tar Elenion)

The title High-King of the Noldor would have been nominal after the Second Age. Eregion, the largest Noldorin region outside Lindon, is gone, along with almost all its population. The Noldor of Lindon continuously sail for Aman. Who's left to rule?

If you say "What about the other Elves?", well, they have their own rulers.

[Kuruharan]

Now that I think of it, if Elves pass Ruler-ship through female lines, then Galadriel, cousin of Turgon, would be ruler after Gil-galad. Not Elrond.

Bingo!!

[Saurreg]

Gil-galad's/Elrond's Lineage

Has Christopher Tolkien stated that was a mistake during the compilation of the Silmarillion in regards to the lineage of Gil-galad and that the right family line was published in HoME?

Silmarillion Family Line:

Finwë-> Fingolfin -> Fingon -> Gil-galad

HoME Family Line (From Wikipedia?):

Finwë -> Finärfin -> Angrod -> Orodreth -> Gil-galad

That would mean that the last High-King of Middle Earth was descended from House Finarfin and not House Fingolfin, no? If that is the case, does that mean that kingship is interchangeable between the three princely houses of the Noldor? Proponents of the above idea may argue that after the exodus of House Fëanor and House Fingolfin from Aman, Finärfin assumed kingship of what was left of the Noldor in Aman. If kingship inheritance was strictly confined within each ruling house, then Finärfin could not have been king - steward or regent perhaps but not High King.

The disinheritance of House Fëanor is debatable and can be used as leverage for both opponents and proponents of the idea of interchangeability. Maedhros, rightful High King after Fëanor willingly surrendered kingship to Fingolfin and thus the second princely house of the Noldor inherited the crown. The question is, did Maedhros relinquish his office because it was Noldorim law that the crown must be held by the next eldest Prince after Fëanor (regardless of house) which, was Fingolfin or did Maedhros exercise some extraordinary kingly powers and thus disinherited his own house?

The above is worth debating because of Elrond's lineage;

Finwë -> Fingolfin -> Turgon -> Idril -> Eärendil (Half-elven) -> Elrond (Half-elven)

If we assume that Gil-galad's lineage from HoME was correct and that the Silmarillion was wrong and that the kingship can only be passed within the same House, then it would explain why Turgon became High-King after Fingon (Fingon would have no known descendant in HoME) and hence Turgon being the next eldest in the House of Fingolfin would assume the throne.

The question of whether Elves had a Salic Law (no females may assume kingship)or not is a good one. After Turgon dies, Idril would have assumed the high office if there was no Salic Law. But strangely enough, Gil-galad became the next and last High King. That indicates that unless Idril exercised the same power that Maedhros did and disinherited kingship from House Turgon, some sort of Salic Law was in play here and because there was no direct male descendant in House Turgon anymore, the crown must pass to the next House - that of House Finärfin in Middle Earth. Angrod and Orodreth perished before Turgon but Galadriel was still alive and unless she forfited her claim or was prevented to claim the crown by some law, she would have became the next soveriegn of the Noldor because she out-ranked Gil-galad in terms of lineage.

Eärendil is abit of dilemma for proponents of the everything-goes-within-the-same-house faction. But there is now a very strong case of elven Salic law at play here and it disinherited Idril and hence her entire line afterwards (Tuor can be prince regent but not King because he was not of Turgon's blood). Opponents of the above school of thought would either argue that Idril volunteeringly surrendered her claim and hence disinherited Eärendil and Elrond or that because both were only half-elven with lesser degrees of elven blood, the crown must be held by by some one of full elven blood. In either way, it spelled the end of inheritance by House fingolfin as we know it. And by combining the idea that the kingship was interchangeable between houses and that there was some sort of a Salic Law at play, Gil-galad became the only candidate left by default. And when he died, the line of Noldorin High Kings in Middle Earth came to an end.