The Englishness of LOTR - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Ibun_Clawarrow · 04-15-2002, 06:35 PM

I'm sure someone else has noticed that the flavor of LOTR is much different than that of modern fantasy. The language for one, especially in the Silmarillion, is very archaic and academic- not in a bad way, but it reads in the same way that a translation of Beowulf or The Odyssey might be written. It seems less like you're reading fiction and more like you're reading the history and myths of a long lost civilization. I also felt like the sections that take place in the Shire and the conversations in general have a very "English" feel about them, which had to have been intentional. I don't think any other "popular" fantasy writer would dare write in this way, but I could be wrong.

Aralaithiel · 04-15-2002, 06:39 PM

Well...you must consider the ethinic origin of the author. Plus, I was watching the DVD of the National Geographic special on LOTR and making the movie, and they quoted Tolkien as having said that he didn't invent Middle Earth, but rather "rediscovered" it. That would explain why his writings, especially The Silmarillion, read as a history. I personally LOVE it!!!! That's one of the myriad of reasons I was drawn and am still hooked on Tolkien! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

04-15-2002, 06:54 PM

Well, since Tolkien was an English professor (I think I read somewhere that he was obsessed with languages since his early childhood), I guess that's what gave him the opportunity to use such an amazing use of the English language in his books. And it is exactly this realism with which the history of Middle Earth is portrayed that makes it such an awe-inspiring story. Ok, not only that [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]. But the realism is perhaps what makes it so special.

If some/all of the above aren't making much sence, it's because I could use some sleep right now *yawns*

Bruce MacCulloch · 04-16-2002, 06:07 AM

The fact that you picked up on the 'flavor' of Professor Tolkien's works as having a definite English and mythic bent shows that he achieved his goal.

On 14 January 1956, he wrote in a letter to a 'Mr Thompson':

Quote:

Having set myself a task the arrogance of which I fully recognized and trembled at: being precisely to restore to the English an epic tradition and present them with a mythology of their own: it is a wonderful thing to be told that I have succeeded, at least with those who have still the undarkened heart and mind.

[ April 16, 2002: Message edited by: Bruce MacCulloch ]

Halbarad · 04-16-2002, 06:25 AM

Good point Bruce, you beat me to it. I also read on a blurb of a book that Tolkien is considered the father of modern fantasy, but he is definitely more than that. Terry Brooks was once compared to Tolkien, but his work is definitely missing the epic style that Tolkien was so good at, and the depth of description. I think the ultimate superiority of JRRT's writing reflects the time and painful revision that he did. Also the classic and quality education, coupled with a great philological mind (he was the proofreader of my Icelandic textbook by Gordon btw)are contributing factors.

Orodhromeus · 04-16-2002, 02:11 PM

Tolkien's prose is one of many reasons why I urge people to read him in English (original versio, not translated).

Lomelinde · 04-16-2002, 02:58 PM

The first time I read Tolkien, I was struck by how similar his style was to classic, age-old literature like Shakespeare or even Homer. The formality of the prose in all his works is often what draws or repels people to his stories. The ingenious and original ways he manipulates the English language distinguishes him from all the rest and is one of the main reasons why I read him. One actually has to think (Gasp! [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] ) when reading Tolkien, just as if one was reading Beowulf or the Iliad. His writing style forces people who are used to modern-day, informal speech and reading to think a little deeper, "outside the box". [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Araen · 04-16-2002, 03:18 PM

I had to read some older stuff that was written during the 1700's/1800's and I think that LotR has the same quality, the same richness that is contained in them.

Bruce MacCulloch · 04-16-2002, 04:41 PM

Quote:

I had to read some older stuff that was written during the 1700's/1800's

Feh! Bunch of modern drivel! You want older stuff, read something like Beowulf or Chaucer!

Like this:

Quote:

Hwæt! We Gardena in geardagum,
þeodcyninga, þrym gefrunon,
hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon.
Oft Scyld Scefing sceaþena þreatum,
monegum mægþum, meodosetla ofteah,
egsode eorlas. Syððan ærest wearð
feasceaft funden, he þæs frofre gebad,
weox under wolcnum, weorðmyndum þah,
oðþæt him æghwylc þara ymbsittendra
ofer hronrade hyran scolde,
gomban gyldan. þæt wæs god cyning!

Now that's proper old literature. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[ April 16, 2002: Message edited by: Bruce MacCulloch ]

Eärendil · 04-17-2002, 06:25 AM

I like the language in the books (of what I´ve read, haven´t read the whole books, I WANT them in English...) It´s great, and the "feeling" in it, just.. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I think it really fits with the story.

04-15-2002, 06:35 PM	#1
Ibun_Clawarrow Pile O'Bones Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 20	The Englishness of LOTR I'm sure someone else has noticed that the flavor of LOTR is much different than that of modern fantasy. The language for one, especially in the Silmarillion, is very archaic and academic- not in a bad way, but it reads in the same way that a translation of Beowulf or The Odyssey might be written. It seems less like you're reading fiction and more like you're reading the history and myths of a long lost civilization. I also felt like the sections that take place in the Shire and the conversations in general have a very "English" feel about them, which had to have been intentional. I don't think any other "popular" fantasy writer would dare write in this way, but I could be wrong. __________________ Isil was first wrought and made ready, and first rose into the realms of the stars, and was the elder of the new lights, as was Telperion of the Trees. Then for a while the world had moonlight, and many things stirred and woke that had waited long in the sleep of Yavanna. The servants of Morgoth were filled with amazement, but the Elves of the Outer Lands looked up in delight; and even as the Moon rose above the darkness in the West, Fingolfin let blow his silver trumpets and began his march into Middle Earth, and the shadows of his host went long and black before them.

04-15-2002, 06:39 PM	#2
Aralaithiel Ghost Eldaran Queen Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A remote mountain in Valinor Posts: 353	Well...you must consider the ethinic origin of the author. Plus, I was watching the DVD of the National Geographic special on LOTR and making the movie, and they quoted Tolkien as having said that he didn't invent Middle Earth, but rather "rediscovered" it. That would explain why his writings, especially The Silmarillion, read as a history. I personally LOVE it!!!! That's one of the myriad of reasons I was drawn and am still hooked on Tolkien! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ A lelyat, wen! (Quenya Elvish for "You go, girl!"

04-16-2002, 06:25 AM	#5
Halbarad Wight Join Date: May 2001 Location: Cheongju, Korea Posts: 147	Good point Bruce, you beat me to it. I also read on a blurb of a book that Tolkien is considered the father of modern fantasy, but he is definitely more than that. Terry Brooks was once compared to Tolkien, but his work is definitely missing the epic style that Tolkien was so good at, and the depth of description. I think the ultimate superiority of JRRT's writing reflects the time and painful revision that he did. Also the classic and quality education, coupled with a great philological mind (he was the proofreader of my Icelandic textbook by Gordon btw)are contributing factors. __________________ -Halbarad to Aragorn, 'The Passing of the Grey Company' Book V, Return of the King."A little people, but of great worth are the Shire-folk. Little do they know of our long labour for the safekeeping of their borders, and yet I grudge it not"

04-16-2002, 02:58 PM	#7
Lomelinde Haunting Spirit Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Ha! Wouldn't you like to know? Posts: 80	The first time I read Tolkien, I was struck by how similar his style was to classic, age-old literature like Shakespeare or even Homer. The formality of the prose in all his works is often what draws or repels people to his stories. The ingenious and original ways he manipulates the English language distinguishes him from all the rest and is one of the main reasons why I read him. One actually has to think (Gasp! [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] ) when reading Tolkien, just as if one was reading Beowulf or the Iliad. His writing style forces people who are used to modern-day, informal speech and reading to think a little deeper, "outside the box". [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ The Dwarf breathes so loud I could've shot him in the dark, drunk, blindfolded and hanging upside down from a tree.

04-16-2002, 03:18 PM	#8
Araen Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 70	I had to read some older stuff that was written during the 1700's/1800's and I think that LotR has the same quality, the same richness that is contained in them. __________________ "Where is the horse and the rider, where is the horn that was blowing, they have passed like rain on the mountains, like wind in the meadow, the days are damned in the west? behind the hills? there are shadows... "

04-15-2002, 06:54 PM	#3
Sirithregion Guest Posts: n/a	Well, since Tolkien was an English professor (I think I read somewhere that he was obsessed with languages since his early childhood), I guess that's what gave him the opportunity to use such an amazing use of the English language in his books. And it is exactly this realism with which the history of Middle Earth is portrayed that makes it such an awe-inspiring story. Ok, not only that [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]. But the realism is perhaps what makes it so special. If some/all of the above aren't making much sence, it's because I could use some sleep right now yawns

04-16-2002, 02:11 PM	#6
Orodhromeus Wight Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Greece Posts: 106	Tolkien's prose is one of many reasons why I urge people to read him in English (original versio, not translated).

04-17-2002, 06:25 AM	#10
Eärendil Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Valinor (RtL: 1220 miles) Posts: 562	I like the language in the books (of what I´ve read, haven´t read the whole books, I WANT them in English...) It´s great, and the "feeling" in it, just.. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I think it really fits with the story. __________________ Jag ska aldrig göra dig illa. Inte igen. Åtminstone inte mycket, åtminstone inte hårt. Kommer du ihåg? Då vi fortfarande kunde skratta, le på ett äkta vis. Jag tänker på det ibland. Det smärtar. För aldrig har du väl varit. Längre bort. Från mig.