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05-26-2004, 01:57 PM | #1 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Sam who?
In the EE of TTT, Gandalf gives this huge long monologue to Aragorn ending with that Frodo is all alone. Aragorn replys "Not alone. Sam went with him." Gandalf then seems surprised. Why? He knows he, Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli are all together. He knows that Merry and Pippin are with Treebeard. And he seems to know that Frodo has gone on to Mordor. Where does he think Sam is if not by Frodo's side? Dead?
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05-26-2004, 04:21 PM | #2 |
Wight
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I don't think he is surprised, although I see how one could be mislead in that scene to believe so.
I think Gandalf takes a moment to feel comfort about the fact that Sam is going with Frodo. Like an "Ah, yes." type of moment, if you know what I'm trying to get across. Tis difficult to describe.
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05-26-2004, 09:58 PM | #3 | |
Raffish Rapscallion
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Quote:
(Aragorn)"He's not alone. Sam went with him." (Gandalf)"Did he? Did he indeed..." I think that shows that Gandalf did not realize that Sam was with Frodo. It's a good question Elianna, I was just mentioning what you said to my friends the last time we saw TTT together. Surely Gandalf would've found out just about everything that had happened to the Fellowship during the long ride to Edoras. I would like to think he'd wonder where Sam is, not just assume he's dead or gone home . |
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05-27-2004, 08:15 AM | #4 |
Mischievous Candle
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Well, I'd suppose it has been put that way in the movie because...
Chapter 5, The White Rider: (Legolas) "We think that Sam went with him." "Did he!" said Gandalf, and there was a gleam in his eye and a smile on his face. "Did he indeed? It is news to me, yet it does not surprise me." I personally think that it was a nice little moment in the film between Gandalf and Aragorn.
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05-27-2004, 08:39 AM | #5 | |
Deadnight Chanter
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according to the book:
Quote:
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05-27-2004, 06:41 PM | #6 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Then I guess my question is towards Tolkien, not Jackson. But I still don't get it.
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05-27-2004, 07:29 PM | #7 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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I was thinking the same thing, until this was posted.
Quote:
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05-27-2004, 08:30 PM | #8 |
Raffish Rapscallion
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I've got to admit that Tokien's inclusion of Gandalf's line in his book makes no more sense to me than PJ's inclusion of it in his movie. I'd like to think Gandalf cared enough about all the members of the Fellowship that he'd keep informed on where they all were (to a certain degree). It just makes no sense to me that he somehow let Sam slip by him unnoticed :/.
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05-27-2004, 11:53 PM | #9 |
Deadnight Chanter
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Well, why should not he surprised - the information he's got comes from what he was able to pick from Frodo's mind, and he knows for sure Frodo has decided to go alone. Later events, though known in more general form, are lacking detail for him. One of his sources is Gwaihir, but he could not discern things unless they are on the plain. If Sam is to be left by the Rauros, Gwaihir has no way of seeing him, as he has no way of seeing Frodo among the cliffs of Emyn Muil. So Gandalf, as he have seen it happen, knows that Merry and Pippin were picked up by Treebeard. Furthermore he knows that Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli are here in pursuit of orks. But Sam is not a marathon runner, he could not possibly followed three hunters at such distance and speed. The logical conclusion is:
A) Frodo went alone B) Aragorn Legolas and Gimli left Sam behind There is of course a suspicion that Sam is not easy to get rid off, but there is no knowing for sure, hence: ''Did he indeed? It is news to me, yet it does not surprise me' For though it may have happened so, it is no knowing for Gandalf unless he's told
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05-28-2004, 02:32 AM | #10 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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we also need to take into context when this discussion took place. In the book it takes place after Gandalf has just met up with the three hunters in Fangorn. I believe his mind was not functioning at 100% at this stage. He had come back from death, and in my opinion, he was taking time to get back to his old self again. Read the passages in this context and you can understand his reply regarding Sam.
Whilst in the EE verision of the film (if I can remember), the speech about Sam took place later (in Edoras? can't quite remember) so it is somewhat out of context to me. On another note, Gandalf may have thought that Sam had died. Why not? the fellowship atttacked by a multitude of Orcs, Boromir dead, why not a little hobbit? |
05-28-2004, 09:07 AM | #11 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Essex: This scene is put into the movie while Gandalf et all are on their way to Edoras. Not too far out of context.
It was one of my guesses that part of the reason lay in that Gandalf had just finished being dead... I still don't think Gandalf would've really thought Sam dead. He knows that Merry and Pippin had been captured by the orcs, probably figured out they were still alive because Saruman thought they, being Halfings, might have the Ring. Sam, if captured, would've been kept alive too. Right?
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05-30-2004, 06:38 PM | #12 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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alright heres a bit from the book
ok.gandealf comes back to life.......and where does he go ? to lothlorien.....ok in the book sam had looked into the mirrore as well as frodo........so galadrial may have told him this.......and told him about sams extreme sorrow about the happenings in the shire. so he may have assumed that sam had either followed frodo OR gone back to the shire to try and set things right.. i think PJ's excerpt was mainly from the scene and assumed it would make sense.. i wasnt all that confused..at least thats how i intrepret it any thoughts~~
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05-31-2004, 11:04 AM | #13 |
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This is what my friend said when I asked her the very same question. She thinks Gandalf thought Sam probably just went home because that's all he wanted to do anyway. I agree with that and disagree because of all people Gandalf would know just how loyal Sam is to Frodo, but then again there could still have been a chance for Sam to go home.
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05-31-2004, 06:55 PM | #14 | |
Raffish Rapscallion
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Quote:
Kitanna: I disagree with your friend's explanation also ( I'm very disagreeable on this subject, aren't I? ). Gandalf understood Sam's loyalty to Frodo, perhaps he understood it better than anyone else, he probably wouldn't have bought Sam leaving him. Of course Sam had the chance, he had it all along, Elrond himself told every member of the Fellowship that Frodo alone was required to continue on the Quest, but Sam wouldn't have taken any of the opportunities, & Gandalf no doubt knew that. |
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05-31-2004, 08:05 PM | #15 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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well personally id like to think that at least now we've got another theory to ponder and perhaps ur right and im wrong...i mean i did forgot that galadrial knew sam had followed frodo........i do however think gandalf may have been merely traveling with haste knowing time growing quite short and was merely flustered i know he had time to think but as i recall(im now thinking about the movie i forget exactly how it went in the book) he had forgotten his own name he may have merely overlooked sam...or perhaps he thought sam had gone with frodo and it was merely reinforcement of the thought.
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06-18-2004, 03:01 PM | #16 |
Fluttering Enchantment
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i agree with morsul, like in TTT he hardly even remembered what his name was so maybe when aragorn, gimli and legolas informed him about what had happened aragorn thought that gandalf would atomaticaly think sam went with frodo so didnt bother mentioning him, so sam (like his name) just slipped gandalf`s mind.
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06-18-2004, 03:18 PM | #17 | |
Raffish Rapscallion
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06-18-2004, 05:05 PM | #18 |
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I watched TTT the other day and when Aragorn says "He's not alone, Sam went with him." At first Gandalf goes "He did?" Then he nods and has this look on his face like, "oh I should have known better." And then Gandalf nods and goes "He did."
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06-18-2004, 06:05 PM | #19 | |
Raffish Rapscallion
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Quote:
Aragorn-"He's not alone, Sam went with him." Gandalf-"Did he? Did he indeed..." Followed by something like 'very good' |
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06-21-2004, 06:37 PM | #20 |
Animated Skeleton
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Gandalf wasn't surprised because he was the one who sent Sam on the whole journey with Frodo in the first place! he made sam promise not to leave frodo, so why in the heck would he be surprised if he knew sam had to have been with frodo...some things in movies are just so confusing
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06-28-2004, 04:53 PM | #21 |
Fluttering Enchantment
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maybe he thought that by this time Sam missed his garden and Rosie and the gaffer so much that he chickened out?? I dont know but ya its very confusing.
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06-29-2004, 10:23 AM | #22 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Well Gandalf must have notcied the lack of Boromir, and he hadn't spoken to Merry or Pippin, so he had many reasosn to think that (a) Boromir and Sam went a different route, (b) 1 or more of those 2 are dead, or (c) Boromir's gone, and Sam's been captured (possibly taken by Mordor Orks when they argued with Sartuman's ones), etc.
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07-01-2004, 03:20 PM | #23 |
Raffish Rapscallion
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Olorin_TLA: Is it likely he wouldn't immediantly find out where the others are? Especially since they had such a long ride ahead of them, plenty of time to talk.
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07-02-2004, 01:11 PM | #24 |
Everlasting Whiteness
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Maybe in his post-deth state he forgot about Sam simply because he hadn't been mentioned. I mean he'd seen Merry and Pippin with Treebeard, and he'd seen Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli by this point and Frodo was the most important member of the Fellowship and it's a little unlikely that Gandalf would forget about the Ring. Sam at the time when Gandlaf left was pretty inconsequential so he could have been surprised at the memory of Sam.
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07-02-2004, 03:34 PM | #25 |
Raffish Rapscallion
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I don't know, Kath. I have a hard time buying the idea that Gandalf had to have everything told back to him again. Since he obviously was a little blurry at first, we know he wasn't 100%, but surely his memory began to come back after being reminded of his name? I know that (at least in the movie), he finishes his own thought on the matter of Gandalf being his name, so that at least proves that some of his memory is coming back.
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08-05-2004, 09:49 AM | #26 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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I've got another idea:
It's based on the "gleam in his eye and smile on his face." Maybe Gandalf was doing an Aslan kind of thing: getting Aragorn himself to say that Frodo wasn't alone, instead of simply telling him. This way Gandalf knew who Sam was and remembered him, and is comforting Aragorn in a wise way, very in character. Thing is, while Tolkien "borrowing" something from his friend C.S. Lewis isn't farfetched, I don't think it quite fits in the book. And I doubt Jackson would've used a Lewis reference.
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08-11-2004, 07:48 PM | #27 |
Wight
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I don't think its so far off to say that PJ would use a Lewis reference. I mean, why not? Its a well known fact that Tolkien and Lewis were friends, and shared their writings with each other and the other Inklings. Personally, I think Gandalf was somehow reassuring Aragorn in a way. Making him say that Sam was with Frodo (therby covering Frodo's hiney ) may have made Aragorn, at least for a while, relax and trust that everything just might work out, even if the world was on the brink of meltdown. That's my take on it, anyway...
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