Wormtongue: Birth of an orcfather?

[Nar]

As his debasement goes on, Grima Wormtongue seems to take on more and more of the typical characteristics of orcs: he gains a nasty nickname, he slinks, he lurks, he crawls, he becomes pale and twitchy. By the end, he's either descended into cannibalism or come close. 'Very hungry lately', that sounds like an orc in service to a typically thankless dark lord.

Whether orcs are elves deformed by Morgoth or men and animals deformed by same, (depending on which part of the Silmarillion or HoME is referenced) the process seems to include a twisting of body and fea under the unfluence of a malign and powerful spirit. Does the twisting of the fea cause the twisting of the body? Could Saruman have at least begun this process during his corruption of and dominion over Wormtongue? He might have done it to Grima deliberately, just to find out what it felt like to attempt to twist a man into an original orc. Given more time with Grima, could Saruman have turned him into a new father of orcs, founder of the first clan of orcs not created by Morgoth?

[the phantom]

Hey! Great topic!
I would tend to think that given enough time Grima would've become more and more orcish. I also think that Saruman being stripped of much of his power made it possible for Grima to get out from under his thumb (he wasn't completely subjected, he killed him after all). I think if Saruman could've kept his full power over Grima for a much longer amount of time, he would've ended up being somewhat of an orc, yet somewhat inferior to orcs, since orcs are (my opinion) twisted elves and Grima was a twisted man. Since Saruman was not as powerful as Morgoth, I don't think he could've made an "elf-orc", but since men are easier to subdue to evil, I definitely believe Saruman could've made a "man-orc".
Make any sense? (I'm sleepy)

[Evenstar1]

Wow! Really interesting insight, Nar! I've honestly never thought of it (the Grima/Saruman relationship) in this way before. Hmmm. May have to muse on this some, but my initial reaction is to point out that Morgoth is said to have cruelly tortured the Elves until they gave in, whereas Grima wasn't tortured (that we're told, at least).

Grima just always struck me as a weasly, spineless opportunist, in the traditions of Eddie Haskell or Iago (as in Shakespeare's "Othello" character, although Disney's "Aladdin" character works, too). In that sense, perhaps orkish was Grima's true nature already, but it just became more readily-apparent as his life unraveled and his nature revealed itself.

But I may change my mind on this. Again, really cool insight, Nar! [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I think to twist a Man for such a long time would result in a tiny, malnourished, weakling who any regular Mordor Orc could have for breakfast.

So Saruman could have made Orcs out of Men, they'd just be useless.

[Child of the 7th Age]

This may sound like a strange distintion, but I have always pictured Sauron, Morgoth,and the Orcs as being typically ancient villains, part of an authentic mythology. I could never imagine walking down the street in my time and age and seeing any of them.

With Saruman and Wormtongue, however, there is a very different flavor. I have seen Sarumans in my own life. Indeed, I would argue that it's possible to look around our world and in recent history and see a number of demagogues who fit this description. His sly tongue is no stranger to me. The same goes for Wormtongue. The subservient toady, he who tags along with the corrupted great man, is no stranger to the modern world.

So I don't see Wormtongue evolving into a mythological Orc. Instead, I see him evolving into __________________ who is very much present in our modern world. (You fill in the blank with the name of your choice.)

sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[Mattius]

I think it is very probable Wormtongue could have been twisted by Sauraman into some vile evil creature. Yet there is always one thing I wanted to know. The Uruk-Hai were created by breeding great goblins and men, how would a wizard do this? And this also brings up a strange point I have never considered. The Orc's were orginally elves and Sauraman mixed them with men, thus creating a race containing men and elves. Weird that I never thought of it.

[Evenstar1]

Elves and Men had already been "mixed." (That's how Elrond was born.) And Elves had also "mixed" with Maiar, and Maiar with Valar, too. So maybe it's not so far-fetched to consider Orcs and Men (though it is disgusting!)

BTW, I didn't realize about the Orc-Man-mix creating Uruk-hai. Thanks, Mattius! (Uh, er, thanks for the insight. But not for the disgusting concept! Aaauugh! Nasty visuals! Help!)

[Frodo Baggins]

In the books it does not say Uruk-hai are crosses between men and orcs. That's a movie fabrication. The books hint that Uruks are a larger, more fearsome breed of orcs.

[Nar]

Phantom, Eomer of the Rohirrim: There are some good threads on the orcs in the Silmarillion Forum. Originally, in early HoME and the Silmarillion writings, Tolkien has elves speculating about the origin of orcs as elves taken and twisted by Morgoth, a horrible idea—imagine it: captured, tortured, and not only do you become an evil monster, but your descendants, if you have any, do also. As far as I know, Tolkien was always troubled by this. Now, I haven’t read the later volumes of HoME like Morgoth’s Ring and the Peoples of Middle Earth, but I understand by then, Tolkien was working out a theory in which Morgoth twisted either animals or men, resulting in orcs. That’s why I included both categories in my question. There are difficulties with the timeline if orcs come from men. I don’t know why men would be less horrible than elves as the originals of orcs, but maybe it helps that men die and go off to an unknown fate, where, if they were orcs, they could possibly be sorted out, if they were willing. Elves just stay around til the end of time, if they’re messed up, they’re messed up til the end of time.

Thank you, Evenstar1—I was always bothered by that mechanism—it seems so horrible to turn into an evil monster because you were tortured—ugh! A very unchristian idea, if I may say so. The exact opposite of martyrdom! I think they were corrupted, rather than tortured—I just can’t see Tolkien making innocent torture victims into monsters, he CAN’T have meant that!

This is the theory I’m working on: Fea (spirit) goes wrong first, Hroa (body) follows after. (hope I spelled that correctly!) The power of Morgoth works to soften the Hroa like warmed plastic, so that it molds to reflect the corrupted Fea within it—sort of collapsing around the ugliness inside until the body reflects the mind. All of the Valar could shape matter—they created Middle Earth. I don’t think Morgoth ‘uglified’ the body at all, just ‘plasticized’ it so that it could conform to the current state of the Fea—most of Morgoth’s (and minion’s) efforts went towards completing the corruption of the Fea. Morgoth’s motives would be to make better cannon-fodder warriors, seal his dominion over creatures that would be shunned everywhere else, and torment his followers just for the fun of it. Nasty!

Evenstar1, Mattius, Frodo Baggins: In the movie, they invented some pods; in the book, as I mentioned above, Treebeard muses about Saruman’s great orcs of the white hand, but we don’t know for sure: I doubt Tolkien had pods in mind, and Tolkien didn’t have Sauron OR Saruman with the power to warp life the way Morgoth did. I agree with Frodo Baggins, I think the Uruk-hai were just a breed of huge Mordor orc for fighting, but I could be remembering wrong.
Frodo Baggins: In the books, Treebeard speculates that Saruman may have crossed men and orcs, (how is not mentioned) but we never know for sure, and Tolkien says somewhere that Treebeard didn’t know everything.


Child of the 7th Age: Very interesting insight. Yes, I too find Saruman and Grima more accessible. Neverthless, Saruman is a maiar --depressing thought! Some of the orcs I find all too human, horrible but pitiable. And it just bothers me that there seems so little choice for orcs other than to be evil minions. It’s the liberal in me, I guess. It’s not that I think they’re misunderstood and secretly good, or anything, but no one ever tries with them. I have a crazy obsessed elf-missionary in my head, but I’ve resisted writing it because I know perfectly well he’d die on-mission, probably horribly, poor guy, still trying to reach them just to satisfy himself that SOMEONE tried.

I don’t see Wormtongue actually BECOMING an orc. Sauron himself couldn’t make orcs as Morgoth had, I don’t think Saruman could. Saruman is a curious, clever, restless soul, though, and I think he’d be tempted to try.

I think of those long days and nights imprisoned in Orthanc, no more battle strategies, no more political stratagems, nothing to do but work on Treebeard’s tender heart … oh, and here’s Wormtongue, whining again about his lost life in Rohan ‘Coulda been a contender…’ That annoying, whimpering traitor. All this time Saruman’s used his voice and glamour to encourage Grima’s worst qualities and now he’s bored, irritated, shut up with him … why not one last experiment? If Saruman’s no valar to plasticize the hroa, well, maia have a certain power over matter—enough to make themselves bodies.

Saruman thinks: ‘Perhaps if I concentrate I can soften Grima’s hroa a little bit, so it better reflects what he’s become under MY influence … yes … I think I feel it giving … that must be a shadow of what it was like for Morgoth … If only I’d gone over earlier, I’d have been much greater than Sauron, really, I have much more in common with Morgoth the great … ’ … so Saruman would tell himself.

Whether it would be true, even a little bit, I don’t know. Things like encouraging Grima’s degredation, working on him to break all codes of ethics and civilization, just peering hopefully at him every morning to check for signs of orcishness—Grima wouldn’t know why, but no doubt he’d sense the attitude in one he was tied to so closely. That in itself could create a kind of hysteria in Grima, so lost, so dependant, so very messed up. It could work on his mind, become self-fulfilling. He certainly had good reason to hate Saruman!

[Frodo Baggins]

I have some wierdo mission thing going on too. I actually pity Worm and kinda like him.....in fact, I probably would have let him stay at Bag End for a while if the other hobbits han't made Grima-kabobs of him first. Is that not insane?? I need professional help.

[Frodo Baggins]

What i really want to know is, who was the tossed Palantir really intended for?? Mery and Pippin??? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[lindil]

The last line of 'disaster of the gladden fields' says that Saruman's defiling of Isuldur's bones was a vile dead " but not his worst". I always read that as confimation of his orc-man breeding program.

That coupled w/ aragorn's comments about the stranger from bree.

We have orcish men, only seen in connection w/ saruman and Uruk-Hai. Orcs that are immune to the sun also associated w/ sarunman.

the 'complete guide' says they originated w/ sauron [ the uruks] where does that come from? I thought they were saurman's ? but it is an uruk cheiftan that spears frodo [ in the source texts... ahem].

anyway i always assumed that saruman used the dunlendings [ or more evilly the remaing Gondorian dunedain of Isengard] but maybe grima was a sire too!

[img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]

[Frodo Baggins]

Whatever lindil. I'm still trying to figure what you're trying to say.

[Nar]

Thanks for bumping my question up, Frodo, and for the thoughtful response. I'm interested in your comment about a mission-thing-- glad I'm not the only one. Are you thinking elf too, or something else? Did dwarves hate orcs as much as elves did? Maybe not quite as much. As for who Grima was aiming at, I don't think at Merry or Pippin. I think Gandalf said it was either Saruman or Theoden and Aragorn, and maybe both. I tend to think it was both, the question is who did he aim at first, and who did he shift towards next? I think Grima aimed the thing at Theoden and Aragorn, and then his arm twitched towards Saruman at the last moment.

I know what you mean about Grima being pitiable at Bag End. Don't you find that he's not at all pitiable when he's high up in Theoden's house, doing all that damage, or turned out, or locked up with his master? I was thinking 'Yeah, serves you right!' at that point. It's only at the end at Bag End that I suddenly felt 'Oh, the poor miserable wretch, let him stay.' A lot of that feeling had to do with how much I trusted Frodo's judgement and intuitions at that point: if Frodo thought Grima has a chance of no longer being a blight and a curse on his fellow man, maybe he did. What's pitiable is not that Grima's degenerated, I would expect that: he's completely betrayed his king, a kind and generous man who trusted him, loved him, defended him to everyone and NEVER called him Wormtongue. Degeneration is only to be expected, what's pitiable at Bag End is that Grima suddenly seems as if he now knows he's degenerated, and that's human, so there seems to be a chance, --but then he's finished, no more chances.

What makes me wonder about Saruman is the physical degeneration in the Bag-End Grima that seems to go along with the moral degeneration that I would expect. The ring might have had a similar effect, softening Gollum's body so it shifted to reflect the damage to his fea. I think Saruman might have tried something like that out of boredom, curiosity and restless malice, as I said before.

Thank you for your comments, lindil. I, too have always had the feeling that there WAS an orc-man breeding program directed by Saruman, because of that southerner from Bree-- he looked like an orc, why else would that be? I think I read that 'Uruk' was a term for the large, bold soldier breed of orc and connected with Morder 'the black Uruks of Mordor' I can't remeber where that phrase is but it's in LotR. 'Even the ........., the black Uruks of Mordor, could not have .......' That's as much of the quote as I can remember. So Ugluk is using a general term with 'Uruk' I think, a type of orc, and I would guess '-hai' is a plural or means troop, maybe someone else knows that one. This does not mean that he and his 'fighting Uruk-hai' did not derive in part from Saruman's interference, but I tend to think Saruman's breeding program was more a matter of utilizing natural processes that orcs and men do anyway than interfering via MAJOR magic or technology. I tend not to believe in pods or ME genetic engineering, or even that Saruman ever succeeded in shifting the Hroa to the extent that descendants of the Hroa would be affected. I think there's some text somewhere saying that it was actually Sauron who twisted the orcs into being by Morgoth's will, but I still don't think Sauron could twist orcs from any source (whether corrupted beasts, men or elves) without Morgoth's making HIS power available to Sauron. I don't think Sauron actually made any more orcs once he lost Morgoth. Breed them, twist what was already twisted a little further, try to increase size, nastiness, or snuffling bloodhound ability, yes, but by breeding and minor arts. And only 'natural' processes like breeding would affect subsequent generations.

To bring forth a new type of Hroa out of some of the original kinds, a new type of Hroa with the ability to pass down its characteristics, took a Valar, no less. In my opinion, Morgoth's own power was required to soften a natural Hroa enough so that it molded to the corrupted Fea within, Morgoth's power either delivered directly or directed through Sauron. I think the threats to the wellbeing of the Hroa, cajoling, tempting and torments were all in the service of corrupting the Fea, not of actually changing the Hroa. In my opinion, the Hroa could only be softened to conform to the state of the Fea. And I don't think any Fea could be corrupted involuntarily, although when torture and terror were involved (I think they weren't always, temptation must have played a big role) this made the process pitiable and sad and the fall into corruption more understandable, even if it is irredemable within Middle Earth.

[lindil]

nar:I think there's some text somewhere saying that it was actually Sauron who twisted the orcs into being by Morgoth's will.

lindil: yes I think it is the myth's transformed section of Morgoth's ring.

As to wether only Morgoth's opwer could do it? I don't know. This subject is not been a major study for me. but I do seem to recall 2 relevant points:
1> Morgoth was in captivity in valinor when Sauron began his evil program.
2> Morgoth at some point [ pre or post confinement, don't know] deseminated most of his power into the general corrupting of the very matter of Arda. To the point where in it is stated somewhere by JRRT [ MR again I think] that Sauron had more power availble to him in the 3rd age than Morgoth because he expended so much of it on controlling his creatures [ dragons and such esp. use alot of 'will' I guess].

So my guess is that Sauron couldhave blended orcs w/ people, perhaps in a neutered fashion [ meaning the uruks could not reproduce but only be bred]thus creating the uruks. Saruman being suitably impressed and intruiged also did the uruk thing but in addition created a '1/2 orc 1/2 man ' such as the 'squint-eyed southerner'.

wether that hypothesis jives w/ JRRT's later speculation I don't know but I kind of think that is what JRRT was thinking when he wrote LotR. He then speculated on the Hroa/Fea difficulties and if I recall never wholly resolved it.

I hope I have not bred more confusion. i suppose it is time for me to really read the Orcish fea[r] thread and the relevant Morgoth's Ring m,aterial again.

sorry Frodo B. about the confusing post. In the middle of it I started to realize that Uruk's were not a creation solely of Saruman. [ I have been focusing on Elven lore and the Silm and such for so long that I forgot things I knew decades ago!] so my theorizing shifted. I should have gone back and redone the first part of the post, agaoin sorry for the confusion.
The last line was a [partially ill-humoured] speculation that perhaps grima fathered some of the 1/2 orcs.

[ September 16, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]

[Frodo Baggins]

Why, youre welcome Nar! And it is so nice to see that I am not wierd in my pity. I once believed I needed mental help. (JK)
Poor guy! Let him stay,(I would have if, as said before, the others hadn't skewered him).
Yes, Nar, I noticed that the only person who didn't go around calling the poor guy Wormtongue was Theoden. And just before Helm's Deep how Theoden said after Gandalf left "I miss both my councillors, the old as well as the new." (That's probably not his exact words, I quoted that from memory.)
Ok lindil I see your point now.

[Cazoz]

So I don't see Wormtongue evolving into a mythological Orc. Instead, I see him evolving into __________________ who is very much present in our modern world. (You fill in the blank with the name of your choice.)

Erm, Tony Blair?

But seriously, I just think Wormtongue's demeanour and physical deformities are the result of years of mental degradation, which in the same vein as stress, will eventually transcend into physical degradation.
I wouldn't use Gollum as a comparison, but just as he was once of Hobbit kin and would have resembled one, the evil of the Ring slowly extended its contamination from his mind to his body. And this process of aesthetical change could be similarly applied to Grima.
I think Saruman's voice/power, what have you, would have the same effect on Wormtongue.
Tolkien generally goes by the adage of 'What goes around, comes around' and people closely remembling their nature and characteristics. And I think Wormtongue is a pathetic, corrupted man and over time his appearance has morphed to reflect this.

[ September 16, 2002: Message edited by: Cazoz ]

[Nar]

Frodo, I have a bad feeling even if he wasn't skewered Grima wouldn't have straightened out. Maybe Frodo could have eventually straightened him out, but he failed with Gollum, though he almost succeeded, if Sam hadn't awakened at the wrong time. Do you think Grima was more morally and spiritually degraded than Gollum or less, or the same?

Ah, Cazoz, welcome to the Downs, enjoy being dead! This is your second post-- it's the second question I've posed ... coincidence?? Or were you MEANT to post here, and NOT by ... Never mind. I get carried away sometimes. Yep, Grima was degraded by evil and constant deception followed by constant bickering, I would certainly agree with that. I don't think Saruman actually turned him into an orc, I just suspect he privately tried to. I have no proof of that, however, it just came into my mind that a corrupted Curunir would have tried.

He made a ring, he practiced deception and beguilement, he worked his honeyed voice for all it was worth, he was a Sauron groupie. Or a Morgoth groupie. Like a besotted teenybopper, he wanted to be just like his idols! They made living beings into orcs, he wanted to as well; he wanted to do everything they did. I'm making a distinction between breeding or enhancing existing orcs and actually degrading a non-orc into an orc-- I consider that a taller order, a greater crime against nature and Eru, and a nastier achievment all around. Everything was more malleable in the First Age, Arda was young and power of various sorts was everywhere. I don't think any non-orcs were made into orcs after the First Age ended. That's why Saruman would have thought it such a cool thing to do.

[ September 18, 2002: Message edited by: Nar ]

[Cazoz]

Thanks.

How much do we know about Saruman's ring and its power? What was it called and when did he forge it, and are there any specific examples of his usage of it?
How would it rank with the other great rings?

[Frodo Baggins]

Well, Nar, I probsbly could have straightened him out. If Sam could keep his mouth shut. And remeber, Gollum had 500 years of corruption in him. Wormtongue did't have near that much (though we don't know how old he was).

[Frodo Baggins]

Saruman"s ring?????? That's a new one. I never heard beafore that he had a ring.

*continues musing over the puzzling subject*

[Nar]

Ah Frodo, I wish you'd had the chance to straighten Grima out! I don't think he could have loved you as well as Gollum, though, there was a kinship with Gollum that you and Bilbo had that was lacking in Grima, I think.

Yes, Saruman had a ring he made for himself, but I haven't been able to find out anything about what it did, if it worked at all other than looking pretty. During the confrontation with Gandalf in which Saruman reveals his evil designs, Gandalf notices the ring as he meets Saruman, Saruman calls himself 'Saruman ring-maker' and Gandalf sees that Saruman has made himself new robes of many colors. I recall some speculation in this forum-- can't remember the topic-- that the ring might have enhanced the persuasive powers of Saruman's voice.

I can just as well see Saruman deluding himself that he had made a ring of power-- there is a large share of fantasy in his plan of playing Barad-Dur and Minas-Tirith off each other and replacing Sauron himself. He had made a special study of the rings of power, though, so perhaps he learned something. My intuition is that if his ring had any effect it was through intensifying the persuasive power of his voice.

Songs had great power in the first age, for example Finrod Felagund's song-duel with Sauron, but this power seems to have faded by the third age-- perhaps not entirely, though. Think of Sam inspired to sing at the top of Cirith Ungol, and then hearing Frodo's cry afterwards-- did that song attract Frodo's attention in the ordinary way, or was it magic? What do you say, Frodo? Did you feel a musical tonic waking your spirit, giving you hope?

[ September 23, 2002: Message edited by: Nar ]

[ September 23, 2002: Message edited by: Nar ]

[Frodo Baggins]

Awwww Narsies!! You flatter me!!! *blushes*
Gollum, love me?? HAAAAAA hahahaha *giggle giggle* *continues laughing*

Now that you said it, Nar, I think I do remember something about Saruman's ring. Seesh! Speaking of mnessed up! Trying to replace Sauron, playing both sides against each other. He dabbled a little too much in what he should have left alone. Remeber what Elrond said. "It is perilous to study the arts of the enemy too deeply, for good or ill"
(Man he's good! Wise elf lord no kiddin!!!!!!)

[ September 25, 2002: Message edited by: Frodo Baggins ]

[Bill Ferny]

Frodo Baggins,

Thanks for pointing that out about the Uruks. As a real half-orc, myself, I can say that the inter-marriage of man and orc produces much better looking off spring. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Nar]

So, Bill, during your time in the Shire, did you feel a strange kinship with Wormtongue coming on? Did you find yourself thinking 'Hmm... with all this crawling, cringing and flattering the big guy, Worm's starting to remind me of Uncle Grishnakh! Only Uncle G's better looking-- 'course I'm handsomest of all! Exotic orcish eyes, stern mannish jaw, best possible combination. Thanks, Mom!'

Frodo, don't you think your ol' pal Sam was almost becoming one of those singing wizard-elves by the end? Come to think of it, you were going that way yourself: 'Aiya elenion ancalima!' --with which you helped Sam ('Gilthoniel, A Elbereth!') rearrange the spiritual innards of those poor put-upon door warden vulture-things at the tower.