Why did the Ithryn Luin go?

[Meoshi]

We all know that Alatar and Pallando went into the East and never returned. What happened to them is a matter of contention. But why did they do it? Some seem to think that it was to unite the men of the East against Sauron.

Has anyone considered the possibility that their goal was to find the lost Avari and lead them to Valinor at last?

[Scott]

That's definitely an interesting point tha I have never thought of. The subject is definitely open to interpretation. The Valar, I'm sure, had some method to their madness. What it was brings us to the question, "Who are we to question a deity?"
[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Meneltarmacil]

I think that one of them tried to get the Easterlings to fight Sauron, while the other one tried to get the Avari to come to Valinor. There were two of them, so why not?

[Sharkû]

We have a great FAQ article on the subject [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Their motives would have been, depending on what version you contemplate, to help the peoples in the East as a part of their mission, or to seek power of their own there. At any rate, their mission was to deal with Sauron, and we do not know anything beyond that. Sauron proved more than enough to handle already.

[Lord of Angmar]

I am of the opinion that they probably went into the far East with good intentions; perhaps, as has been said, to gain support from the Easterlings in anticipation of a final war with the Dark Lord, or perhaps to bring the Avari at last to Valinor (an interesting idea which I had not before pondered). However, I think they ultimately strayed from their goals, much as Radagast and Saruman forsook their purposes. As for the final fates of the Blue Wizards, I will quote Mr. Bilbo Baggins:

Where many paths and errands meet
And whither then? I cannot say.

[ July 25, 2003: Message edited by: Lord of Angmar ]

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

...another note Tolkien made on the blue wizards, this time naming them "Morinehtar and Romestamo." Tolkien gives both of these names meanings: "Darkness-slayer and East-helper."[The FAQ article]

'Darkness slayer' seems to imply that 'Morinehtar' was there to work against Sauron. 'East-helper' could mean that his companion was there for the benefit of the Easterlings; this theory about the Avari is one I have not heard before.

It may be plausible -- although I don't think Tolkien himself has ever mentioned anything like this. The interesting thing is that, were this the case, how do we know that the Blue Wizards failed? 'Romestamo' might indeed have gathered that Avari into the West -- either straight to the sea or to Mirkwood, maybe, and thence on with the Silvar to the havens. In secret.

'East-helper', however, is more likely to have meant that this Blue Wizard was there for the succour of the Easterlings from Sauron's influence. They were, of course, very important in the wars of Gondor. The Avari are after all a small matter (although it is probable that the Valar would not have entirely forgotten them).

Actually, on the subject of the Avari; I always imagined that they did in fact 'dwindle' into the secretive and 'rustic people' that Galadriel knew she would have to if she stayed. The last representatives of the Firstborn in Middle-Earth, perhaps nocturnal, loving the stars. Perhaps dying out, and getting to Aman that way. Alternatively they may have wandered West of their own accord, as did the Edain, and gradually joined with the Nandorin Silvan Elves by themselves.

[Noxomanus]

By the way,I wonder if they were both clad in blue ,unlike the other Wizards who had their own colours, because Pallando was chosen by Allatar himself instead of chosen by a Valar or volunteering.In this way,because it was not according to plan that there would be a fifth Wizard,Pallando might have had to share in the mission of Allatar,meaning the task of the Blue Wizard would be 'divided' between two Blue Wizards.This would probably lessen the burden for both.
Just a thought.

[Cathelm]

I've been into the ithryn luin for quite a little while, and I can't help but mention that (correct me if I'm wrong) they were last seen heading east with Saruman. Saruman came back; they obviously did not. I don't know when this happened or whether Saruman was on the dark side, but I thought I'd bring this up.

[Dimaldaeon]

I don't know about making tha Avari go west. The Valar seem fairly into free will, so the Blue Wizards may have inticed, suggested or cagoled the Avari into standing against Sauron perhaps even going as far as Mirkwood to aid in the war but as for going to Valinor I don't think so

[Lord of Angmar]

I don't know about the Ithryn Luin FORCING the Avari to go West, but they could have been messengers of the Valar sent to SUMMON them, as the Elves of Cuivenen were summoned but not forced to take the long road to the Undying Lands. Another good example would be the men of the Three Houses of the Edain being summoned to Numenor. It would go against the philosophy of the Istari to try to force anyone to comply with their will, but I think that perhaps they could have offered a summons or coerced the Avari into making the trip.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Yes, no-one is ever forced. The Avari, after all, are only there because they made the choice not to obey the summons that Orome gave; and Orome did not force them into it.

[The Saucepan Man]

Like all of the Istari, the purpose of the Blue Wizards in going to Middle-earth was to assist and guide the peoples of Middle-earth in the fight against Sauron. Quite possibly, it was never planned from the outset that they would head off east but perhaps, on arriving in Middle-earth, the Istari saw the power that Sauron held over the peoples in that region and perceived that there was a need for at least one of their number to go east with a view to trying to weaken Sauron's power base there. And Alatar and Pallando, being the inseperable pair that they were, decided to set out together.

The point is often made (originally by Tolkien himself) that Gandalf was the only one who succeeded in the mission undertaken by the Istari. But this does not necessarily mean that the Ithryn Luin did not play some part in the overthrow of Sauron. After all, if you believe (as I do) that Radagast sent Gwaihir to rescue Gandalf from Isengard, then he played a part in Sauron's defeat. Even Saruman (albeit for his own ulterior motives) played a part in ejecting Sauron from Dol Guldor.

Perhaps Alatar and Pallando played their part too. Perhaps their influence in the east denied Sauron of at least some of the Easterling armies that, without their participation, would have been available to him. Perhaps those extra forces, had he had them, would have been deployed to devastating effect. Pure speculation, I know, but I like to think that the Blue Wizards, or at least one of them, did their duty. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Just a thought, but could 1 or both of the Blue Wizards have been corrupted by power(possibly becoming the leader of the Easterlings, I'm not up on their leaders)
If they saw a wise mysterious man from the west who had answers to many questions and mysterious power, they may come to serve or even worship him.

East-helper may even denote that one was seduced by Sauron, much as he was by Melkor.

And maybe, just maybe the Easterlings just slew the blue wizards on sight, and the all knowing "people upstairs" decided not to send them back.

[the guy who be short]

Perhaps Alatar and Pallando played their part too. Perhaps their influence in the east denied Sauron of at least some of the Easterling armies that, without their participation, would have been available to him. Perhaps those extra forces, had he had them, would have been deployed to devastating effect. Pure speculation, I know, but I like to think that the Blue Wizards, or at least one of them, did their duty.

Not speculation at all. I remember reading somewhere, and I think it may have been by Tolkien himself. It went something like: The purpose of the Blue wizards was to teach and preach to the Easterlings, who otherwise would have come with great force and utterly crushed the West.

I, for one, believe that they did succeed in this, but that they were rather impassive in actually fighting Sauron, which is why they "failed".

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Yes, we don't know what they did there. They went to the East, and there they entered total obscurity.

They may have, as Tolkien speculates, played an important role in the restraint of Rhun (i.e. by convincing a part of the inhabitants of the East not to follow Sauron) and certainly their purpose was to do this. However, perhaps they did not succeed in this. Obviously they failed to sway the governorship of Rhun, and that it probably what really counted. The kings of Rhun, or even pressure from other people, could well have enforced those unwilling to fight to go anyway. It is also more than likely that hearing of these two upstarts apparently recruiting for the West in their kingdom, they or angry followers had them killed.

The notion, also raised by Tolkien, that they in fact fell into evil themselves in the East and actually assisted the rulers may also be viable. The fact is that they Ithryn Luin are so obscure that we don't really know anything about them, and that Tolkien's comments on them are varied and contradictory -- a commentry and a speculation themselves. They highlight possible explanations but don't define anything.

It is interesting to note a couple of other things. Firstly, that Easterlings could be willing to fight for the West, as some (Bor the Faithful and his sons) did not betray the Elves in the Nirnaeth. Secondly, that we do not see any information on what was happening with the Blue Wizards from Saruman; and also that they were not there at the sailing into the West of the Last Ship (although they may have taken another). Had they been alive and victorious, as Gandalf was, it would perhaps be expected that they would have been there at that sailing back into the West.