Canon and Fanfiction: Imagination vrs. Respect

[Child of the 7th Age]

I have some understanding of "canon" in relation to Tolkien's writings as a whole and how this affects our perception of the Legendarium. Increasingly, however, I'm hearing this term applied to fanfiction (and RPGs). Folk proudly defend their story as "totally canon" or criticize another because it is not.

But what does canon really mean in relation to our own fictional accounts? I think this is a question which deserves discussion. I don't believe there's one right answer, but, by mulling over different views, we may clarify our own standards and, thus, write better stories.

Don't get me wrong. There are some things clearly ouside the pale. A Jedi knight running around with a light sabre does not belong in Middle-earth! But there are areas that are more uncertain to me.

Let me cite a few examples.

What about an early writing like BoLT2 which features Morgoth's mechanical dragons? (In later writings, these disappeared.) Is it in keeping wih canon to use mechanical wyrms in a fanfiction? I've heard it argued both ways on this one!

Again, BoLT refers to Elves that are diminutive in size, a concept later rejected by the author. And I personally would cringe at a story that portrays Elves in that way. Nor would I write a tale that depicts the Valar having children, even though Tolkien played with this idea.

But there are other situations where the answer is less clear. Might a diminutive Elf really be the "fairy" mentioned in The Hobbit who married into the Took family? If it's alright for Melian to marry Elwe and bear Luthien, would there be certain situations where Gandalf, or Saruman, or even Sauron (!) could also have a wife and child? I personally would never provide a spouse for a Maiar since it seems to go against their very essence, but perhaps others see this differently.

For that matter, I have a real problem with a number of tales, some quite well written, which depict Frodo as marrying and/or having children after the Ring quest. Everything I know and understand about Frodo tells me that this would not have happened. So are there situations like this where each of us has our own "personal" standards of canon. In fact, where does canon stop, and personal choice begin?

Right now, in two stories, I am working with a hobbit "ranger" in the Third Age and a "good" dragon who originated at the dawn of time. The former is loosely modelled on Trotter, the ranger hobbit, who appears in early versions of the LotR. The "good" dragon is obviously straight out of my imagination. I figure, since Morgoth couldn't create life from "nothing", he must have corrupted an existing species in order to breed his wyrms. My dragon just happens to be one of the few "good" leftovers that Morgoth missed! Is this a constructive use of imagination, or has poor Child fallen over into the deep end?

In summary, have you encountered similar questions and poblems when working on fanfiction (or RPGs)? What standards of canon should we use in composing fanfiction? And where should imagination stop, and respect for the author hold sway?

sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[ September 03, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

[mark12_30]

Child, a few quick thoughts bubble up immediately:

I think we need to be careful about calling fanfiction (of any sort) canonical; it can't be. Tolkien didn't write it. I think we need another term, say, canon-loyal or canon-friendly or canon-consistent.

The highest praise we tend to lather on an author, I think, is that a peice of fanfiction fools us into thinking that it's a lost work of Tolkien's. I remember feeling that way about The Last Ship, the Legolas and Gimli departure story. She fooled me! Well, almost. And to achieve that an author has to avoid contradicting one of Tolkien's direct statements. Frodo marrying and having kids contradicts Tolkien's direct statements about what Frodo DID do. Hence... you can write the story if you want to, but you've left the mainstream canon-friendly area and gone off into the alternative universe area. That's okay if that's your thing, but it's not what I'd call canon-friendly.

Where Tokien leaves grey areas, we are free to play, I think.

I think to write really safe (canon-friendly) fanfics it's best to stick to those grey areas and mysterious places, especially if you're going to get really creative. What happens in the Ered Luin? Don't they just look tantalizing sitting there on the mysterious western edge of the map? I always wanted to know. So when I wrote a fanfic, we ended up there-- just cause I wanted to see them! And nobody had written much about it (that I'd read) and so I was free to play, and Tolkien let me do it!

But if you mess with (say) Frodo, you've got to be SOOOO careful, I think, because TOlkien painted him so clearly, and if you don't get him just right, everybody knows It's Not Him. Same with Gandalf or Aragorn or anybody else that's been thoroughly painted by Tolkien. If you're going to be canon-friendly you've got to know what TOlkien already portrayed, and not contradict that, unless you fully intend to-- and then you're deciding NOT to be canon-friendly.

Good dragons-- I think your point of "what did Melkor start with" is very well taken. A balrog perhaps? Are dragons evil maiar...? Well, anyway, my point is you're free, I think, to make that stretch, or at least argue for it.

I hesitate to add an entire new bestiary to Middle-Earth via fanfiction; but on the other hand, Treebeard himself missed the hobbits and had to add new lines to his lists. So maybe nobody knows all the critter-types, including Tolkien himself. But I think they have to (or should) FEEL Tolkien-ish. But that gives us a wide range; from Gandalf and Elrond, to Bert and William, from Shagrat to Frodo, from Treebeard to the Balrog, and from Dragons to Neekerbreekers and Bill the Pony-- so what might be in-between? I would prefer to see some sort of tie-in to canon, such as your question "where would Melkor have twisted the dragons FROM", but is it mandatory? Hard to say.

As far as Trotter goes, "I don't see the harm in it."

(As long as Trotter doesn't end up marrying Arwen... HA! did I SAY that? Sorry.)

--Helen

[mark12_30]

Just had to log back on and add this: Was thumbing thru Tolkien's letters and found on p. 275 (regarding the first film synopsis [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

I do earnestly hope that in the assignment of actual speeches to the characters they will be represented as I have represented them: in style and sentiment. I should resent perversion of the characters (and do resent it, so far as it appears in this sketch) even more than the spoiling of the plot and scenery.

If Tolkien read our fanfiction, would he smile on our portrayal (of his characters) as his old friends, or would he frown on our "perversion" of them? I shudder to think whether we would "pass the test" or not. Nonetheless, I think that is in general a good goal to strive for.

[Ithilwen]

I agree that "canon-friendly" is a better term when it comes to describing fanfics than "canon", especially since there ISN'T a single, consistent authoratative text for many of Tolkien's important First Age stories (unlike the LoTR), and some aspects of his later writings contradict elements in LoTR. And I'm not sure how important being "canon-friendly" is in fanfiction, since it's purpose is to entertain, and some stories do that extremely well even though they have obvious AU elements. But for my part, I try diligently to stay within the bounds set by the published works (and regard the works published during his lifetime as more authoratative than ones published posthumously); if there are contradictory elements (such as the parentage of Gil-galad), I generally go with Tolkien's later choice unless there is compelling reason to do otherwise, and I stay consistent once I've made my choice. But I don't use "would Tolkien have approved of this" as a guideline, both because it's impossible to know what he would have approved of, and because I'm often dealing with emotions and situations that Tolkien seemed uncomfortable discussing; I don't see why I should allow his limitations as an author to influence me unduely. That being said, I don't think I'm twisting his characters into unrecognizable caracatures; I'm trying to provide plausable reasons for why those characters act as they do (I write Silmarillion fanfiction - and frankly, NONE of the characters in the Silmarillion are as fully-developed as the major characters in The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings). It seems to me that that's the best any author can do - approach the texts with respect, but remember that ultimately you as the author have to decide what works for the story you're trying to tell.

[mark12_30]

In the RPG romm Mithadan brought up Canon-consistent RPGs. THis reminded me, frankly, of the old, tightly moderated RPGs and their rules: not neccessarily a bad thing! But it go tme thinking about the difference between those and ... what we have now.

How's this for a wild stab in the dark??

Canon-Consistent: no deviations allowed. Pure Tolkien. If it's not in, alluded to, or clearly allowed (erring strictly on the side of safety) by one of his (later??) books, you can't do it. Or perhaps, you would have to argue your case before the moderator.

Canon-Friendly: Not quite so strict. If it's close, with pretty much Tolkien's style and grace and flavor, we'll go with it, and hope he wouldn't frown too hard.

Alternate Universe-- the What-Ifs. What if Frodo got married, what if Boromir didn't die...

and... Other.

Reactions? Do my categories make sense, or would you change the suggestions above?

--Helen

[ September 04, 2002: Message edited by: mark12_30 ]

[mark12_30]

I was certainly not trying to disallow other inputs and I apologize for giving that impression. I wasn't trying to narrow the discussion, I was trying to prod, and I bungled it, as usual. Anybody interested in helping to discuss the categories, please do. Anybody interested in the various levels of canonicity, please interject.

I'd like to see some progress made in the terminology and the guidelines. The Downs is trying to tighten up guidelines, and I'd like to see this particular guideline more easily accessable for whoever is interested in participating.

--Helen

[ September 04, 2002: Message edited by: mark12_30 ]

[ September 04, 2002: Message edited by: mark12_30 ]

[piosenniel]

In fact, where does canon stop, and personal choice begin?

For me, canon stops when a hand other than Tolkien's puts pen to paper, or in this day and age I should say fingers to the keyboard.

Certainly, other writings can have the flavor of Tolkien's writings - his "style and grace", as mark12_30, put it. In fact, some are so seemly, they take the reader's breath away. But to talk about any 'canonicity' seems ludicrous to me.

I don't think we can use the word 'canon' to be objective about RPG's or fanfics. The rules should be subjective - what parameters will the admins of this particular site allow?

Rules and guidelines should be set up by them which they feel will reflect and encourage the kinds of writing they'd like to see represent the Barrow Downs. Let the judgement come from that.

[Gandalf_theGrey]

* enters from beneath the shade of a grove of willows, pipeweed smoke trailing back up into the leaves on a hushed afternoon breeze *

As an appreciative observer, I am greatly enjoying everyone's musings regarding Tolkien canonicity.

The question has now been raised regarding how might these theories be practically applied to Barrow Downs RPGs?

The Shire is a successful example of a community where orderliness thrives in an atmosphere of freedom. A small number of Shirriffs best maintains peace and the general sense of well-being through good neighborliness and standing ready to defend, all the while expecting the best of people. Rangers deal with larger dangers, ever vigilant to stop problems outside the borders. These Rangers wisely remain quiet, low key, unobtrusive, so as not to disturb the inner tranquility of a society that works well ... Meanwhile, they neither fear to draw the sword, nor draw it without reason.

I am simply hoping to stave off the coming of many-feathered Hobbits and rules that close the gates to those worthy of entrance.

If our canon-definitions serve as an unofficial ideal or unimposing guide which help RPGers in their quest for excellence in portraying the realm of Middle Earth, that is all to the good.

If our canon-definitions are being considered as potential hard-and-fast rules or regulations which might end by restraining that which they seek to foster ... it is then I pause for Ent-like pondering before putting anything into practice.

Gandalf the Grey

[ September 04, 2002: Message edited by: Gandalf_theGrey ]

[Child of the 7th Age]

To me, term like "canon friendly" or "canon consistent" are merely words that are descriptive and which will help the poster decide whether or not he or she would enjoy participating in the story. I don't see them being used to shut out stories, which may take another approach to Tolkien. That's never been done before at the Downs, and I think, even with the new rules, that people aren't going to be unreasonable.

I would think it might be helpful to use a descriptive term like this in the introductory paragraph just to let posters know what they're getting into. But I'm not even certain it should be obligatory. As Pio says, none of us are Tolkien, and anything we create is inherently bound to have differences.

The overall problem is, whether you are constructing a fanfiction, or making rules for the RPG room, you must have some structure and guidelines, but not so much that creativity is crushed. I have a lot of faith in Mithadan who is helping Elenna to come up with these policies. He has done RPGs and fanfictions, has been at the Downs a long time,and knows many of the challenges involved in writing. I don't think they would come up with something that's completely unreasonable.

Helen -- I'm not sure that it's practical to divide things up into so many piles. And sometimes it's hard to judge exactly how a story will develop. I guess my gut feeling would be to have a single moniker describe those stories which generally encourage posters to stay close to Tolkien's models (albeit with some alterations).

Let's say a general term "canon friendly" which would still cover a range of things. But it would be helpful to be given some definitions or examples of the above as I'm uncertain myself what this would exactly mean!

sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[Mithadan]

I agree that no fan fiction or RPG can be "canon". I used the term "Canon Compliant" in the RPG forum in response to a question from a member regarding how to identify RPGs that, more or less, adhere to "canon" (whatever that is [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ).

I was not implying that future RPGs must be canon compliant or canon friendly or whatever term you might wish to use. Some gamers may prefer such RPGs but others do not.

My own fan fictions are barely canon compliant/friendly in that they intentionally address grey areas, i.e. what happened to Frodo, Bilbo and Sam in the West; what was it like in Cuivienen; who was the Black Horseman at Cuivienen; how was Sauron recognized by some when he courted Celebrimbor; what happened to Maglor, etc? Some readers have commented that they mistook my writing as "canon" which I consider to be the highest compliment. But of course they are not.

[Mister Underhill]

This is bleeding over into conversation which more appropriately belongs in the RPG forum, but I hope I can help clear up some of this ongoing confusion. We opened the Freestyle Room as a place where we, perhaps naively, hoped people could play and be creative without us having to go to the trouble to moderate it. Some people did just that. Others.... didn't. Let me emphasize that just about everyone who administrates and/or moderates the Downs would rather that it didn't need moderation. We'd prefer to spend our time joining in the fun rather than scrambling to maintain a decent community. So -- my point is, any rules we impose will be designed to encourage creativity and quality, NOT to stifle it.

We certainly have no plans to impose some sort of arbitrary standard of canon compliance that we'll then have to spend all of our time policing. If individual game "owners" wish to try a thread which adheres to strict canon-only material, more power to them -- but it won't be any kind of forum-wide policy, and it will be something that the game's owner will have the responsibility of policing.

Additionally, we have always welcomed and will continue to welcome feedback. If you think the new policies (coming very soon) stifle creativity (I think you won't), let us know and we'll try to work with you.

*Underhill now returns you to your regularly scheduled topic.*

[Child of the 7th Age]

Thanks to the admins for those words of clarification.....Thank you. And good luck with a much needed task. I hope your headaches are few and small!

And, now, back to the other question. The main reason that I posted this thread is that, increasingly, I saw the words "canon" and "fanfiction" or "canon" and "RPG" used in the same sentence. And, like Pio and others, I'm not sure that is appropriate. I can live with "canon friendly" or "canon consistent." Even with these terms, I feel we're dealing with the intent of the writer rather than making a pronouncment on the actual results.

But I'm still curious about my specific question. Have you ever been writing a fanfiction (or RPG) and come to some point where you said, I'd like to include this, but it really pushes me beyond Middle-earth, and I don't feel comfortable there?

Helen -- your quote of Tolkien's letter was helpful. I actually feel more comfortable stretching plots or settings or even places. It's when I get to characterization that I draw the line. There are specific things certain characters won't do in my head. This may be a matter of personal choice rather than a "canon friendly" issue, although I feel it can have implications for both.

sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[piosenniel]

Have you ever been writing a fanfiction (or RPG) and come to some point where you said, I'd like to include this, but it really pushes me beyond Middle-earth, and I don't feel comfortable there?

Uncomfortable, no.

But you have to admit the existence of a time-crystal (even though it might be considered more of the flavor of M-E than an REG *Random Events Generator* and a PC linkage) is completely outside the bounds of Middle-earth. Nonetheless, it was a sort of necessary evil to get the plot and characters of the Lonely Star RPG in and out of the appropriate time periods.

It would have been difficult to write such a wide-ranging story-line without the ability to use this suspect device!

[Child of the 7th Age]

Re: time travel......Very true. Tolkien certainly had the concenpt of time travel within the legendarium, but not the device. So I figure we're taking the concept and stretching it a bit. OK, maybe not a bit, maybe a LOOOONG way!!

sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[Gandalf_theGrey]

Have you ever been writing a fanfiction (or RPG) and come to some point where you said, I'd like to include this, but it really pushes me beyond Middle-earth, and I don't feel comfortable there?

As long as the direction I was being pushed beyond Middle-Earth was Westward past the Bent World and on to Valinor, I'd be quite tempted. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Gandalf the Grey

[Bêthberry]

I can live with "canon friendly" or "canon consistent." Even with these terms, I feel we're dealing with the intent of the writer rather than making a pronouncment on the actual results.

Sorry, Child, but I don't see where these terms logically or necessarily relate to the writer's intent. They strike me as referring quite clearly to Tolkien's sub-creation and implying faithfulness or consistency with that sub-creation because the word 'canon'refers to texts. Can you explain further your objection?

Thanks,
Bethberry

[Eol]

When it comes to writing "cannon friendly" work, I am pretty laid back as long as it follows true with what has been already written.
example: I am the granddaughter of Galadriel(all ready 20 of those) or daughter of Elrond( twelve of them). Umm, well all I can say is that they get around....:rollseyes:

If you can sufficently back up your claim and it makes sense, then fine. But I do not like to cope out when it comes to character backgrounds. There is more then plently of imcompleted work of Tolkien's that you can work with, especially in his earlier texts( Silmarillion).

[Ithilwen]

Child of the 7th Age said:

And, now, back to the other question. The main reason that I posted this thread is that, increasingly, I saw the words "canon" and "fanfiction" or "canon" and "RPG" used in the same sentence. And, like Pio and others, I'm not sure that is appropriate. I can live with "canon friendly" or "canon consistent." Even with these terms, I feel we're dealing with the intent of the writer rather than making a pronouncment on the actual results.

I don't think that the folks who use the word "canon" when describing their fanfictions or RPGs are trying to claim primacy with Tolkien's actual writings - instead, I think they're merely using the term as a shorthand way of letting potential readers/players know that in THIS particular setting Legolas will NOT marrry Mary-Sue, and Luke Skywalker won't be visiting Rivendell. If not for the proliferation of AU settings/characterizations in fanfictions/RPGs, no special term like "canon-friendly" would be needed at all.

And since there ISN'T a single canon anyway, there are always going to be disagreements regarding how far a person can go with his/her creation and still merit the term "in-canon" or "canon-friendly" (particularly with regards to characterization).

But I'm still curious about my specific question. Have you ever been writing a fanfiction (or RPG) and come to some point where you said, I'd like to include this, but it really pushes me beyond Middle-earth, and I don't feel comfortable there?

Well, I haven't played any RPGs for a long time, so I'll leave that area to others. So far, I haven't had that happen in my fanfiction writiings, although I suppose the possibility exists that it could happen at some point in the future. But most of my stories are character-driven rather than plot-driven (Tolkien has already given me the overall plot, I'm just fleshing things out a bit), and perhaps that makes a difference.

Helen -- your quote of Tolkien's letter was helpful. I actually feel more comfortable stretching plots or settings or even places. It's when I get to characterization that I draw the line. There are specific things certain characters won't do in my head. This may be a matter of personal choice rather than a "canon friendly" issue, although I feel it can have implications for both.

sharon, the 7th age hobbit

I think most writers have visions of what is "appropriate" characterization for various characters - but it's because these views differ significantly between people that I feel defining characterization as "canon-friendly" is extremely difficult as compared to settings/plots. We KNOW that Gondor was never conquered by Harad. We KNOW that there were only 9 Walkers in the Fellowship. We KNOW Galadriel was born in Aman. But we can only guess what Legolas's childhood was like, or what feelings Aragorn experienced when he entered the Paths of the Dead; people who are equally well-read with regards to Tolkien's works can reasonably hold different opinions here. And to me, that's where the fun of fanfiction lies - adding flesh to the bones. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Losthuniel]

Fanfiction can be a tricky thing to write, staying loyal to the author, but at the same time, bringing something interesting to the story. I, personally, get rather irritated when fanfiction veers off the "true path". stretching plot(a little bit) and places, doesnt bother me, as much as Character interference. As a member of the PPC (basically, canon purists who kill Mary-Sues) some character Ruptures I've seen are enough to have the Good Proffesor rise up out of his grave and Hunt authors down. Thats meddling in things that ought not to be meddled in. The fact that the Barrowdowns has some of the above category(not naming any names) is a smirch on the site's honour (sorry if I sound like a snobby elitest, but seeing Legolas SO out of character ticks me offf like nothing else). Also, messing with BASIC PLOTLINE is a definite no-no. Galadriel had one daughter, Elrond had one daughter and there were NINE walkers.
I'm a fine one to talk about streching canon, since I am in an RPG at the moment (the Silver herd)that is REALLY streching canon but I think that MOST of the extra races have a pretty canon-consistent reason for being.
If there is a grey area, where things could have happend that werent nessicarily in the books, then playing around is great(as long as nothing else is touched)

In short: play in the grey areas all you want (heck, I do it enough)but leave CHaracters ALONE.

[mark12_30]

Losthuniel,

I feel similarly, I think. Creativity with the plot and the races/bestiary bothers me less than messing with the characters. To me the most important question still seems to be, "In that situation, is that REALLY what that character would do?" The situation may be wild-- that's the fun of fanfiction sometimes-- but please, convince me that you've really got the right character in your strange situation, and not a morphed semi-clone that is dressed like (but does not talk or act like) the character.

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

I've written the most unbelievable, unlikely storylines, and been told my stories are "very cannon." Go figure.

I think Canon really is that ineffable quality of believability.

[Tirned Tinnu]

Oh, how I gnash my teeth when even PJ's work is being taken as canon!
The sweet and noble characters, their carefully thought out dialog, wrenched from its paper and torn into pieces!
I have written "fanfiction" for scifi series that were intended as possible outcomes to unfinished storylines, but NEVER will I touch the work of Tolkien. Even if I had spent my life studying the same langauges and mythology that he did I would never consider my work canon.
I despair of what has become to Aragorn (and I know this should be under a movie thread, but I will say it nevertheless)
PJ, what have you done to ARAGORN?!
*pantpant* /end rant.

[Ithilwen]

Marileangorifurnimaluim said:

I've written the most unbelievable, unlikely storylines, and been told my stories are "very cannon." Go figure.

I think Canon really is that ineffable quality of believability.

I agree completely! And what is believable to one person may seem utterly fantastic and out-of-character to another, which is why labeling something as "canon-consistent" is always going to be controversial. SOMEONE is always going to pop up and say "But So-and-So would NEVER act that way!", no matter how careful the writer is. Heck, I bet that if I were to post some actual passages from HoME (which most Tolkien fans have never read) and label them as as passages from my new fanfic (omitting their actual authorship), some people would say that those passages were in violation of canon - thus proving that even Tolkien himself might be considered "not canoniacal enough" under the proper circumstances!

Ironically, the opposite is easier to do, in my opinion. Most people would agree that the really wild AU fics are definitely "canon-inconsistent". Too bad we can't force those writers who write "Legolas falls in love with a female Jedi Knight who's travelled back in time to become the 10th member of the Fellowship!!!" stories to label their creations as 'canon-INconsistent"! It would certainly save everyone a lot of headaches.