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Old 07-23-2004, 09:56 AM   #1
mark12_30
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After finishing the chapter, my first reaction is a simple one: this used to be one of myleast favorite chapters, but now I think it is one of my most favorite. All the dark wandering and separation and evil the hobbits face in the war are cast into sharp relief by the backbone of this chapter: the wrenching in Frodo's heart as he prepares to leave his good friends, their steely determination that he will not escape their diligence, and his relief and joy at their companionship.

Frodo's surprise and indignation is wonderfully comic. Merry's firm gentle assertions deeply touch me.
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Old 07-23-2004, 04:27 PM   #2
Azaelia of Willowbottom
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1420!

I'm kind of jumping away from the topic at hand, namely the names of the River and Bucca... While I have a love for languages, I am no ace at entymology. I'm young, give me time. So my situation being as it is, I have nothing of value to add to that particular discussion, save to say that it is fascinating. I feel like I'm always learning when I log on at the BD's. Now, with apologies, I turn back to more familiar territory...

Ahh yes, another of my absoloute favorite chapters (A statement that I think I will be repeating over and over as we move through the beginning of the story)!
I love reading about the Hobbits back before all the horrible things that happen to them are much more than a trailing dark shadow, or grim foreshadowing.

This chapter really shows the three supporting Hobbits at their very best. So much fun to read! Especially the revelation of Sam as the spy. Frodo's surprise at how much Merry and Pippin know is absoloutely priceless. It's also sad in a way. They force Frodo to take them along, but none of them know the danger, or just how long and dark their journey will be...Frodo has a more accurate preception of it than the rest, but none of them know what they're in for in the long run, and Sam certainly has some sense of it. Pippin has encountered a Black Rider, and certainly is afraid of it, but how much of the danger he precieves, I do not know. Merry is really out of the loop as far as Riders are concerned. He hasn't encountered them over and over as the others have, but he is older than all but Frodo, I believe, and will probably be next to grasp the full seriousness of the situation. All three that have been on the journey have grown and changed, Frodo the most noticeably.

Each time I reread LOTR, my mind grabs onto some details it previously missed, rushed through, or just plain forgot. This time, what I fixated on was that Frodo has some really interesting dreams, at least throughout FOTR. Rereading this chapter gave me the chance to notice this paragraph, one that had somehow escaped my notice, or at least, my memory on my many other readings of this book...
Quote:
Eventually [Frodo] fell into a vague dream, in which he seemed to be looking out of a high window over a dark sea of tangled trees. Down below among the roots there was the sound of creatures crawling and snuffling. He felt sure they would smell him out sooner or later.
Then he heard a noise in the distance. At first he thought it was wind coming over the leaves of the forest. Then he knew that it was not leaves, but the sound of the sea far off; a sound he had never heard in waking life, though it had often troubled his dreams...
It goes on to describe his sudden longing to see the Sea.

I find that so intrigueing because Tolkien seems to make a point of describing it, and of making it the last thing we read about in the chapter. I'm still not sure what it means... I was thnking he was on the Tower Hills, where Sam's daughter Elanor would someday live. I think that's where the Arthedain were located, correct me if I'm wrong: I'm not particularly good at geography, and Middle Earth's history at times gets a little foggy and confused in my mind. I'm not quite sure what significance that has, but it would appear that Frodo is seeing a real place in his dream, one that he has never been to before. Also, a connection to the Sea, even a longing for it, has been established. Thoughts?

OK, now you're free to go back to the deeper linguistic discussion. I'll go back to lurking around on this thread and learn all I can from it.
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Old 07-24-2004, 07:31 PM   #3
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To the Sea!

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It goes on to describe his sudden longing to see the Sea.

I find that so intrigueing because Tolkien seems to make a point of describing it, and of making it the last thing we read about in the chapter. I'm still not sure what it means... I was thnking he was on the Tower Hills, where Sam's daughter Elanor would someday live...... but it would appear that Frodo is seeing a real place in his dream, one that he has never been to before. Also, a connection to the Sea, even a longing for it, has been established. Thoughts?
In a word, YES. Well put-- and deep, too.

If we follow this track (and I heartily agree) then Frodo is shown to be (a) prophetic, (b) called Westward, and (c) providentially going away from his desire. It reminds me of a certain rule, that he who would be greatest must become the slave of all.

Great post.
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Old 07-24-2004, 08:42 PM   #4
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On the surface (no water pun intended ) we have a lighthearted river name that sounds like what the Hobbits seem to be at first glance - all about eating and drinking! But go down deeper and you find layers of meaning and of, well - depth, the toughness of the Hobbits.
I also get the feeling in this chapter that the appearance of the Hobbits as lighthearted and frivolous is only a mask, one that many of them have worn so long they forget how to be serious and how to face hard truths and challenges. Merry, Pippin, Sam and Fatty have not forgotten, and the 'unmasking' shows them to be the tough and true creatures that Gandalf became so fond of so long ago. This is one of my favorite chapters for one simple reason: there is an overwhelming sense, to me, of revelation, of help where it is least expected, of light in a bleak outlook. In short, I undergo all the surprise, joy and elation that Frodo does when the conspiracy is unmasked by layers, when his friends reveal themselves to be more true than he ever imagined, a light in the darkness.

Just as the Black Riders are showing the emptiness underneath their masks (the hood, which Farmer Maggot notices is so deep you can't see anything underneath it at all), his friends are showing their true colors and support beyond all Frodo's hopes. Even though Crickhollow proves to be only a stopping place, and as someone earlier said, Frodo is facing a houseless state, his friends have proven their willingness to sacrifice their comfort and safety for Frodo's sake, to help him take his home with him in a sense, the part of it that really matters anyway.

I know my thoughts aren't as coherent as they could be. I am also catching up, although I've read it quite a few times! I only hope I can keep up! But basically, this chapter is the one that uncovers the true beauty of hobbits, their earthy version of Light.

On another note, I find Pippin's tendency to overdo the exuberance of taking a hot bath to be another aspect of the hobbits' relentless lightheartedness, all the more pronounced for just having escaped an imminent danger, on the edge of another round of danger. I can't think of anything else, but I've quite enjoyed the etymological and historical posts as well!

Cheers!
Lyta
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Old 07-25-2004, 07:58 AM   #5
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One brief thought that occurs to me - Fredegar Bolger's decision to stay behind is told of matter-of-factly, with no condemnation for his decision. He misses out on the journey and its adventures, but he is not belittled for staying behind and doing what he is capable of doing there for his friends. That reminds me of Aragorn's generous dealings with those soldiers who are too afraid to go to the Black Gate with him - he gives them a task that is within their strength to accomplish and does not condemn them for their cowardice. Not everyone is able to tackle the same challenges, and there is no shame in admitting that some things are bigger than one can handle.
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Old 07-25-2004, 02:02 PM   #6
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Sorry about this, I'm going back to the linguistic thread as I had a few thoughts about it. I was reading this thread yesterday and decided to look up an old book (1967) by Basil Cottle - The Penguin Dictionary of Surnames. The derivation for Buckland says:

Quote:
Land held by charter (literally book-land) Old English
However, I think that may be a bit of a curveball, as reading further, other surnames beginning with the prefix "Buck-", such as Buckley, Buckden and Buckton, are all alleged to derive from the root "buck, male deer". Interestingly, this in it's turn is possibly a derivation from the Old English name Bucca.

Bucca means "male deer" or "he-goat" and appears to have been the name of a regional chieftain, as in the name Buckingham

Quote:
River-meadow of Bucca's followers, Old English
As Bucca was the name of the first Thain of the Shire, Tolkien must have known of this derivation, which suggests that Buckland is probably intended to be from this root, and does not mean "Book-land".

In the same book, "Wine" is defined as simply "friend", from Old English. Alas, it appears that "Brandy" is not a surname! However, as already mentioned "Brand" is Old Norse for torch or firebrand, and the name "Brandreth" means "burnt clearing" in Old English. Does this suggest a burnt clearing in amongst their friends, the trees of the Old Forest? Maybe I'm imagining too much!

I couldn't resist looking up Took, too. It is given as Old Norse, probably a pet version of Thorkil or Thirkettle which, sinisterly, means "Thor's sacrificial cauldron".
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Old 07-25-2004, 08:15 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Lyta_Underhill
I also get the feeling in this chapter that the appearance of the Hobbits as lighthearted and frivolous is only a mask, one that many of them have worn so long they forget how to be serious and how to face hard truths and challenges. Merry, Pippin, Sam and Fatty have not forgotten, and the 'unmasking' shows them to be the tough and true creatures that Gandalf became so fond of so long ago.
Indeed! So not only was the conspiracy unmasked, so was the true nature of hobbits.

I could just imagine Fatty Bolger being left behind. I'm sure he wanted so much to go with them, but he chose to face the dangers that will be left behind as Frodo and the rest leaves. This act of his might not be given as much importance as the deeds of the other hobbits, but it is filled with loyalty and selflessness. He deserves as much praise as the others for this.

Finally, this chapter gives a sense of safety for the hobbits, while all the time there is an air of mystery around the dangers they would encounter next. If I could say so, this is the deep breath before the plunge.
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