Concerning Istaris

[Baran]

What was the powers of the Istaris? They were very wise, but did they have any powers no man or elf had (magic)? Were they sent to Arda mainly to guide and give advices?

[Nufaciel]

You can find information on the Istari in Unfinished Tales.

The Istari were Maiar, and had powers that were given to them by Iluvatar. However, they were not allowed to use these in Arda. They were only allowed to use such magic that could be found within Arda itself.

[Aldagrim Proudfoot]

Also, if you remember, Gandalf used blue fire to kill the wolves in The Hobbit.
So I guess that means they do have powers. He also knew locking spells even fought the Balrog.

[GreatWarg]

The istari were not permitted to use their own powers for domination or for forcing the peoples of Middle-earth to see their way. They could only use their powers for good, such as Gandalf. Each istari had his own special powers, but they each had wisdom and magic. Saruman, however, grew corrupt with the ways of the Arda, and therefore disregarded their policies. Radagast used his powers to talk to animals and befriend them. Gandalf seemed to be the only one who trully fulfilled his quest, and therefore could return to Valinor.

[Daniel Telcontar]

Do you think that the other Istari did not return to Valinor? I do not know about the blue wizards, but Radagst seems to be bored in ME, so I think that he would go to Valinor as soon as possible. I don't think it is in the nature of the Valar to expel one of their servanst because he failed his mission.

[Kin-strife]

I don't know about Radagast being bored. He loved the animals of Middle-earth and devoted most of his time to them. Perhaps he didn't wish to leave them until he had to. Maybe he's still here under the guise of a tree hugging animal rights activist [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]

[akhtene]

Gandalf returned to Valinor because his mission in Middle Earth, as a messenger to contest the power of Sauron and as a Ring-Keeper, was over.
Radagast and the Blue Wizards, I suppose, could return to Valinor when their business in Middle Earth was completed

But what about Saruman? He wasn't killed, or was he? I don't suppose that a common man (Grima the Wormtongue) with a common knife could finally kill a Maia. Well, Gandalf had overpowered him and had cast him from the Order and from the Council, but by doing so had he deprived Saruman of all his powers? Anyway, where could he or his corrupted spirit go?

[Evenstar1]

Good question, akhtene! To what degree did Saruman lose his powers? And is he "dead" or still "out there," capable of regaining form?

[TarElendil]

istaris were sent to middle-earth to aid men elves etc. radagast saruman gandalf and the two blue wizards were sent. the blue wizards went into the ladns past mordor.
i believe that saruman was a "spirit" after he died, not being able to take shape again. Just like sauron after the destruction of the ring.

[the real findorfin]

The Blue wizards - Pallandro and alatar - i think. they were said to have founded the magical cults of the world.
Cool idea, David Blaine is descended from a Maia. I knew that balancing on a pole wasn't for humans.

[The Silver-shod Muse]

So what's the significance of the color code (white, grey, brown, and blue). Do those colors signify any deeper symbolism other than hierarchy?

P.S. Ugh, David Blaine? [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[akhtene]

I'm not sure, but maybe just common associations:
white - the purest colour, meaning the greatest fighter with evel (the one Saruman was supposed to be)
grey - that's for something/one obscure, like 'grey cardinal'(if that sounds right in English), the one who gives advice and teaches without claiming any obvious power; or grey can be the colour of road clothes and road dust, as Gandalf had to travel a lot. Unlike Saruman he didn't seem to have any permanent dwelling.
brown is just the colour of the forest.
blue - that's something mysterious, vanishing (vanish into the blue)

[burrahobbit]

Baran said:

What was the powers of the Istaris?

What is an Istaris? I'm not sure that I've ever heard of one of those. Unless what you mean Istari, WHICH IS ALREADY PLURAL.

[obloquy]

<obloQuy> <obloquy> poenus.

[Legolas]

If Radagast was bored in ME and wanted to return to Valinor, I doubt he would've waited around 2000 years.

Pallando is a blue wizard - not Pallandro.

[ June 18, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]

[Feadolena Nolfare]

As far as I know from UT, none of the Istari but Gandalf could have returned to Valinor even if they wanted to, because they didn't properly fulfill their mission (i.e. Saruman was corrupted, Radagast turned away from conflict with Sauron to communicate with animals, the Blue Istari went into the East and apparently ignored Sauron altogether). This ban concerning Radagast strikes me as rather strange. While he didn't take a really active part in fighting Sauron, he did enlist the animals to spy against him (even if this goodwill was skewed by Saruman). I don't see any clear reason for him not being allowed back into the West. Of course, the tales were unfinished, as the title suggests, so I'm guessing this bit was simply passed over with either a plan for explanation or just not that much thought. Tollers was a rather busy guy, after all. Little help here?
Another thing... just me spazzing: the Istari were chosen by Yavanna (Radagast), Manwe & Varda (Gandalf), Aule (Saruman), Orome (either Alatar and Pallando or only Alatar) and? Mandos & Nienna (Pallando?). The thing that is most notable about this arrangement is the lack of an Istari chosen by Ulmo. It is said that he was most aware of what passed in Middle-Earth, and thought always of the people there, even in dark times. The sending of the Istari represents this same idea, so it's rather strange to me that Ulmo didn't get a representative (never mind that he is far and away my favourite Vala...). Could it be because he seldom came to Taniquetil? But wouldn't Manwe summon him for something so important? All very strange...

[Legolas]

We aren't really given the details of the council held by the Valar. The Maiar's associations with a Valar could mean (and suggested to denote that) they are just a part of that Valar's people.

It also seems that it was sort of on a volunteer-basis. When Manwe asked who would go, only Saruman and Alatar stepped forward.

It's quite possible that Ulmo, looking on, was content with Manwë's selections. He might've known of Olórin's character, or perhaps he just trusted Manwë's judgement enough to think better of imposing another Maia to be sent (as Yavanna did - and we saw how that turned out, didn't we?).

[lathspell]

But what about Saruman? He wasn't killed, or was he? I don't suppose that a common man (Grima the Wormtongue) with a common knife could finally kill a Maia. Well, Gandalf had overpowered him and had cast him from the Order and from the Council, but by doing so had he deprived Saruman of all his powers? Anyway, where could he or his corrupted spirit go?

Saruman wasn't killed, but 'made bodyless'. An Istari cannot be killed for he can't die. I think that Saruman had the destiny as Sauron: to become a spirit which can never take shape again.
Yes, when Gandalf cast Saruman from the Order, he broke his staff and with that he deprived Saruman of all his powers except one: his voice. And that's how Saruman could still daunt the hobbits of the Shire, for they believed his words: him being a mighty wizard and all.

Orome (either Alatar and Pallando or only Alatar) and? Mandos & Nienna (Pallando?).

Later Tolkien writes that he thinks that Oromë sent both the Blue Istari for Oromë was the Vala with the greater knowledge of distant realms in the South and East.

Well, now the thing for what I came in here... a new question. It is said in UT that Gandalf wasn't planning to go with the Istari, but that Manwë and Varda asked him to go. In the end it was only Gandalf who fulfilled his quest (and maybe Radagast, but that is something I do not know. He was sent by Yavanna but with what purpose is unknown to me so I don't know if he failed). So, let's say that Gandalf was the only one... was this foresight of Manwë and Yavanna? They asked him to go and he is the only one to fulfill the quest. It's rather strange to me. So, is this coincidence or foresight?

greetings,
lathspell

[Legolas]

I'm pretty sure it was foresight...

Manwë (by calling him out as soon as he arrived) obviously had great faith and saw in him the potential to be Sauron's greatest opposition. Varda must've shared this view, as indicated by her comment after Manwë gave the command to Olórin to be the third emissary (since two had already stepped forward - Curumo and Alatar):

But at that Varda looked up and said "Not as third;" and Curumo remembered it.

Also, on Radagast's mission, I believe he didn't fill out the purpose of the Istari being sent by the Valar. Though he might've done what Yavanna liked, it wasn't exactly what Manwë had in mind, I'm sure.

There is no hint of an explanationof why Yavanna's evident desire that the Istari should include in their number one with a particular love of the things of her making could only be achieved by imposing Radagast's company on Saruman; while the essay on the Istari that in becoming enamoured of the wild creatures of Middle-earth Radagast neglected the purpose for which he was sent that in becoming enamoured of the wild creatures of Middle-earth Radagast neglected the purpose for which he was sent if perhaps not perfectly in accord with the idea of his being specially chosen by Yavanna.

[ June 18, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]

[akhtene]

There is no hint of an explanation of why Yavanna's evident desire that the Istari should include in their number one with a particular love of the things of her making could only be achieved by imposing Radagast's company on Saruman;

Sorry, I don't know where the quotation is taken from, but it seems "The Silmarilion" (Of the Rings...) gives kind of explanation. The Istari were sent

... to move Elves and Men and all living things of good will to valiant deeds.

While Gandalf and Saruman were busy with Elves, Men and other 'thinking' (??) races, it was Radagast's task to deal with animals, birds and plants.

[Legolas]

It's from The Istari chapter in Unfinished Tales. That part of the quote wasn't the focus of my posting it, but I see it as questioning why Yavanna thought Middle-earth would need an emissary strictly devoted to her creations in nature...did she think the others wouldn't do a sufficient job? Just being overly protective of her creations? Thought they were more important than the people of Middle-earth?

Does he really help them besides caring for them from his home in Mirkwood? He did little to oppose Sauron. Caring for nature may have been his mission as given by Yavanna, but it doesn't seem that Manwë would send him soley for that reason. I think that logically Sauron would attempt to defeat the elves and men, and then dwarves...hobbits and animals would come afterwards, provided they don't seem like much of a challenge for a fight against Sauron's forces.

[ June 18, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]

[akhtene]

Well, it's impossible to argue with the author, but anyway I believe the quotation I gave above can explain the purpose of Radagast being sent to Middle Earth with Manwe's approval. Of course Elves and Men were of the greatest importance, but there were four Istari sent to deal with them, and as animals, birds and plants mattered much for Yavanna and Elves as well, shouldn't there be at least one to care for them and make use of them inthe oncoming struggle.

It's a different matter whether Radagast coped with his mission or failed. But there were birds who could talk ,like the thrash and ravens in the Hobbit and who helped. And who taught them? Anyway, everyone had to play his part, be it great or small.

[Legolas]

Not trying to be offensive! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Nor was I saying Radagast's trip to Middle-earth was totally useless - just that perhaps he could've done a little better.

[ June 18, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]

[lathspell]

Does he really help them besides caring for them from his home in Mirkwood? He did little to oppose Sauron.

Yes, he helped the Istari in many ways, though he was always on the background. Usually it was Gandalf who dealt with Sauron, and later also with Saruman. I think the best way of Radagast's help to the otehr Istari were his birds. All birds were his spies (except, I think, the Great Eagles and evil birds), and he gathered much news for the others.
In the Hobbit, when the dwarves of Dain and the Elves of Mirkwood are going to fight, Gandalf suddenly stand in the middle, saying that he has news that even the Elflords may not know. For he knew that Bolg was coming with many a warg and orc. I always suspected Radagast to be behind this information, from his birds or other spies. It was also the year that the Wise drove Sauron from Dol Guldur, so Radagast and Gandalf did meet in those times.

Well, I certainly don't think that the coming of Radagast was useless. He played a small part, but I think it was one that no one else could have played.

greetings,
lathspell

[Legolas]

I didn't mean to imply that his coming was usless. I just think he could've done more, or someone else from Aman could have in his place.

[obloquy]

as animals, birds and plants mattered much for Yavanna and Elves as well, shouldn't there be at least one to care for them and make use of them inthe oncoming struggle.

This may have been Yavanna's purpose in pushing for Aiwendil's inclusion, but it was not his official mission. From Unfinished Tales we read:

For Radagast, the fourth, became enamoured of the many beasts and birds that dwelt in Middle-earth, and forsook Elves and Men, and spent his days among the wild creatures.

Apparently his purpose was originally the same as the others: to aid Elves and Men in the struggle against Sauron.

Edit: Hopefully this will update my avatar URL.

[ June 21, 2002: Message edited by: obloquy ]

[Legolas]

mah point ezacklee thanx u olboguy!!!!11

[Cathelm]

Has anyone ever thought that Radagast might have wanted to stay in Middle Earth????

He seemed quite happy with dwelling in the forests with the birds. And while Sauron could never come back, there are always other evils that could use some spying on, not to mention the forests themselves may someday need protection. Anyone agree with the one who knows so little (me)???

[Daniel Telcontar]

I don't think Radagast had anything against going back to Valinor. He never was into the whole "fight against evil" thing, and since all the beasts and birds in Middle-Earth also lives in Valinor, I don't think he will miss anything that much.