Balin, Moria and the King Under the Mountain

[lindil]

I have been wondering for a while whether Balin was all or partially motivated to retake Moria [and become it's Lord] because of a feeling of having been snubbed to be King Under the Mountain, he was after all, a direct descendant of the Line of Durin as was Dain, and after all already had his own lordship in the Iron Hills.

Perhaps he felt that as Thorin's companion since youth and most particularly as sharer in the adventure of restoring the House of Durin to Erebor he was the natural choice.

So by becoming Lord of Moria, would Balin have thus 'one-upped' Dain? And been the real heir of Durin? Ruling in Durin's own anscestral mansion.

[Greyhame]

I don't suppose Balin set out to "one-up" Dain as such, but rather to even the field a bit. If any real competition existed between the two, I would suppose it was a completely cordial one.

Besides, if thirteen dwarves and a hobbit could reclaim Erebor from a Dragon, surely he, a direct descendant of Durin, could lead a colony back into Moria. Dain certainly had no claim to the title Lord of Moria.

Alas, if only he knew the truth behind Durin's Bane...

[ January 18, 2003: Message edited by: Greyhame ]

[lindil]

I believe it said in the Council of Elrond that Dain was reluctant to give Balin leave. Surely he must have told Balin of his experience with seeing Durin's bane at the battle of Azanulbizar, if not right after the battle then surely when balin forst approached him about leading away some of the people of the Lonely Mountain.

Also, in the appendices, i noticed that Dain is called Thorin's 'rightful heir' presumably because he comes from a king of Durin's folk closer [ by 2 generations I think] than Balin.

I do not think that makes it a given though that he would become King Under the Mountain, although he would naturally have been the King of Durin's folk, just as Thorin would have been [ had he himself lived long enough to be crowned as lord of one of the traditional [although not original] homes of the Dwarves.

[the real findorfin]

If Balin had succeeded and became longstanding Lord of Moria, who would have been classed as the 'King' of Durin's folk?

If you think Dain, would he have claimed lordship over MOria and come to dwell there?

[doug*platypus]

Blood is thicker than water. Dwarf blood, and a dwarf in general, is thicker than that of most others. I don't see either Balin or Dáin Ironfoot capable of the greed or ambition you seem to credit them with, O Seeker. Kin-strife is more of a human thing.

[Kuruharan]

Dain was and would have remained King of Durin's Folk even had Balin succeeded. He was the one with the better bloodline. It was impossible for Balin to upstage Dain in this way. So, Dain actually could have chosen to return to the Iron Hills and left Balin as King Under the Mountain and Dain would still have been King of Durin's Folk. However, since the Iron Hills were rather poor Dain went where the real money was.

Where you ruled did not matter that much. It was whose son you were.

Thorin would have been [ had he himself lived long enough to be crowned as lord of one of the traditional [although not original] homes of the Dwarves.

I believe (not totally sure) that Thorin was King of Durin's Folk anyway. He was just without a capital. He was a king in exile, but still a king.

If you think Dain, would he have claimed lordship over MOria and come to dwell there?

Well, actually, even if Balin had succeeded, he still would have been subordinated to Dain since Dain was still King of Durin's Folk. As a loyal member of said folk, Balin had a duty to the "head of the household." So the answer is "yes and no." Yes, Dain would have had a degree of lordship over Moria since he was still the over-king. No, its unlikely that he would go there himself to take over. He had other things to be doing.

The position of King of Durin's Folk probably equates well with the High King of the Noldor during the First Age. The king is the leader of all the Longbeards, but this rule tends to be rather nominal in realms other than where the king personally is. Tolkien seems to have had a real thing for this type of political system.

So, I think that Gloin gave an accurate representation of the motives of Balin in going to Moria. He was trying to give his people, the Longbeards, a wider place in the world and access to more resources. Dain was reluctant to let them go, not because he was worried about being upstaged, but because he was worried about Durin's Bane killing the lot of them.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

I think that Balin's humility prevented him from contesting the kingshhip. More, likely he wished to see the wonders of Moria restored.

[lindil]

"Dain would have had a degree of lordship over Moria since he was still the over-king. No, its unlikely that he would go there himself to take over. He had other things to be doing."


Dain certainly did not have other things when it came ot the Lonely Mountain!

Who is to say he would not have wished to become Lord of Moria also.


Thorin was technically King of Durin's folk, probably along with Thrain the first to have to dig coal to survive.

Why did not he take up abode in the Iron Hills as would be his right as king?

Dain was certainly quick to give the Iron Hills up.

I am perhaps being to suspicious of Dwarven nature, especially when we are given no specifics of Dwarven politics [ other than all of the houses participating in grudge wars].

[Kuruharan]

Dain certainly did not have other things when it came ot the Lonely Mountain!

Where do you get that? He was king. Kings always have things to be doing.

Why did not he take up abode in the Iron Hills as would be his right as king?

I've often wondered that myself. However, see answer below.

Dain was certainly quick to give the Iron Hills up.

I don't think that there was ever much there. It seems to have been little more than an outpost.

I am perhaps being to suspicious of Dwarven nature, especially when we are given no specifics of Dwarven politics [ other than all of the houses participating in grudge wars].

Ah, but you can extrapolate and infer some things from their goings on.

[lindil]

An out-post with 500 dwarves ready to march with spare gear at a moments notice ?

While the Iron Hills was no Khazad-Dum or Erebor it seemed to be the major concentration of the House of Durin in the late 3rd age.

The impression given of dwarf traffic/populace of/from the Blue Mountains is small but steady.

[ January 18, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

[doug*platypus]

Dain was certainly quick to give the Iron Hills up.

I don't believe they were given up on. I don't recall where it is said that all dwarves of the Iron Hills moved to Erebor. I can fully understand his moving the Kingship there, however. Even though Khazad-Dûm was the ancestral home of the Longbeards, Erebor seems to have been a magnificent kingdom, with an impressive physical appearance, and close proximity to trade centres.

Incidentally, does Dáin wield an axe in the War of the Ring? What happened to the mattock? I like those, they were so hardcore!

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Doug, what is a mattock? I think ganadlaf mentions, in the appendicies, that when Dain fell before Erebor, he wielded his axe 'as mightly as he did in his youth'. Dain, is my favourite Dwarf, BTW. Killing Bolg before he even reached a 'grown-up' Dwarven age is amazing.(I think he was 40 something, though Thorin also defended himself with a piece of a Oak tree, hence Oakenshield.) Dain was 250 when he died right? And wasn't his grandson supposed to have been Durin VII and last?

[Kuruharan]

An out-post with 500 dwarves ready to march with spare gear at a moments notice ?

Yes, that sounds like an outpost to me. Five-hundred is not that many.

While the Iron Hills was no Khazad-Dum or Erebor it seemed to be the major concentration of the House of Durin in the late 3rd age.

Yes, I've often wondered why Durin's Folk did not go to the White Mountains and set themselves up there.

I don't believe they were given up on. I don't recall where it is said that all dwarves of the Iron Hills moved to Erebor.

I think that you are right. The Iron Hills were probably not abandoned.

what is a mattock?

A mattock is like an axe, only different.
The blade is set at right angles to the handle. (Technical description. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] )

[lindil]

I never said that the Iron Hills were abandoned, just that Dain left them.

My point is this - it seems Balin, a senior [ but not The Sr.]member of the House of Durin got chumped by Dain, who decided to make Erebor his Kingdom, even though he would have been like Thorin "king" of Durin's folk wherever he was.

Balin trudged along with Thorin probably every day of his life since before leaving the Lonely Mntn, for 200+ years.

So after being in Erebor for what 60 years or so, decides to refound Moria, using his [ and Oin and Ori's if I recall correctly] rather substantial wealth to try and retake a second enemy held former Dwarf strongho;d.

Balin does not seem like a fiery crusader for the House of Durin in the Hobbit, he seems solid level headed and kind.

Hardly the one to, as a Dwarf senior citizen with the best available retirement package, go off and retake Moria.

To me the only logical explanation is that his life was incomplete. He felt he should have ruled something after Thorin.

[Kuruharan]

I get the feeling that we have come full circle. Oh well, onward...

My point is this - it seems Balin, a senior [ but not The Sr.]member of the House of Durin got chumped by Dain, who decided to make Erebor his Kingdom, even though he would have been like Thorin "king" of Durin's folk wherever he was.

Well, since he was not The Senior member of the royal family it's kind of hard to say that he was chumped. That's the way things go in a monarchy. Those who are the sovereign get to do whatever they like, those who aren't get to like it or lump it.

Maybe Balin got bored and decided that he needed more adventure in his life.

[lindil]

I failed to earlier mention the strange comment of Gloin at the council of Elrond that "It was partially in the hopes of finding Thror's ring that Balin went to Moria.

Curious on 2 counts:

1. that he did not know, from Thorin that it had been passed on to Thrain, but not Thorin [goes to show how secretive Dwarves are!] and
2. That Balin was indeed perhaps trying to one-up [or in this case 2 two-up] Dain, by being Lord of Moria andhopefully the bearer of the Ring of the House of Durin.

[Kuruharan]

Still would not have made any real difference. Bloodlines.

If he had gotten the ring he might have been suddenly inflamed with greed for gold and power, but under normal circumstances I'd say that is not really his personality.

However, the ring was not there to be found.

And Dain surely knew that it was hoped to find the ring, and he still let Balin go. If he was so afraid of his position, he undoubtedly had the power to stop the whole expedition, but he didn't.

I'm still going for the "Balin needed more adventure in his life" theory.

[lindil]

How could Dain have stopped him?

Balin was an extremely wealthy, noble, respected, highly placed and influential Dwarf. Second [on the lonely mountain] only to Dain's son and extremely close kin I would imagine.

By what right's could Dain have stopped him?

Jealousy? Fear of being shown up?

It does say that Dain gave leave for them togo unwillingly, but by what rights could he have kept Oin, Ori and Balin from doing what they pleased outside of his realm?

He may have been Lord of the house of Durin, but surely every one in Erebor were not his slaves.

Indeed he largely owed his ascendnacy to Thorin's company, so he would have appeard extremely grasping and ungracious if he had tried to stop them.

So, Dain actually could have chosen to return to the Iron Hills and left Balin as King Under the Mountain and Dain would still have been King of Durin's Folk. However, since the Iron Hills were rather poor Dain went where the real money was.

Exactly my point Kuruharan!
and congrats on 700 posts.

I do not mean to portray Balin or Dain as at each others throats or with hatred or animosity towards each other, but it seems highly plausible that Balin felt he got the short end of the Erebor stick and saw Moria and [erroneously the last Dwarf Ring] as a way to redress that.

Dain was already going to be king of Durin's folk, why should he not leave Erebor to Balin? I think this was the root of Balin's deparure to Moria.

[ January 30, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

Not that Balin wasn't capable of ruling the realm of Erebor, but he was maybe closer to the line of Durin yes, but Erebor wasn't the great hall of Durin, it was founded by Thrain the old, who was certainly more closely related to Thorin and then Dain. Erebor qualified as of his direct lineage, not so much as of Durin's himself.

[Kuruharan]

How could Dain have stopped him?

I expect that the Royal Guards, or whatever the equivalent of such might happen to have been, would have been more loyal to Dain and the system than to Balin. This is going by the assumption that the guard of the monarch would be the largest (if not the only, which might have been the case) professional military force in the kingdom. They probably would have been able to stop Balin from leaving if Dain ordered them to.

However, it must be admitted that speculating on the nature of the military establishment is really reaching, but I offer a possibility.

But another point is that Balin's followers would perhaps have been unwilling to follow him if Dain had forbidden the expedition.

Balin was an extremely wealthy, noble, respected, highly placed and influential Dwarf. Second [on the lonely mountain] only to Dain's son and extremely close kin I would imagine.

Yes, but alas, not the king. Unless Balin had a deal arranged with the Longbeard's equivalent of the Praetorian Guard, I think that the troops could be relied on to follow the king and prince.

By what right's could Dain have stopped him?

The same right that he can order anybody to do anything. He's the king. The representative of the father of their race.

Jealousy? Fear of being shown up?

Whatever the motivation, Dain could still have legitimately given orders to stop them if he was so inclined.

It does say that Dain gave leave for them togo unwillingly, but by what rights could he have kept Oin, Ori and Balin from doing what they pleased outside of his realm?

I hate to keep harping on this but it is the only answer to be made. Dain was the king. If they were going out into the world and getting themselves into trouble, Dain would still be in some sense responsible for them.

He may have been Lord of the house of Durin, but surely every one in Erebor were not his slaves.

No, but they were subject to his authority. Unless they rebelled, and there is no indication that this was anything like a rebellion. As a matter of fact there is never a mention made of rebellion against their own authorities by dwarves in the texts. It just does not seem to be a dwarf thing.

and congrats on 700 posts.

Thank you. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

but it seems highly plausible that Balin felt he got the short end of the Erebor stick and saw Moria and [erroneously the last Dwarf Ring] as a way to redress that.

I'm afraid that we are just going to have to disagree on that.

Dain was already going to be king of Durin's folk, why should he not leave Erebor to Balin? I think this was the root of Balin's deparure to Moria.

I'm not sure I follow. Do you mean why didn't Dain go to Moria? If that is what you mean then the answer probably is because he did not believe that this enterprise was going to work. Which I believe is the reason why he was against the whole business, not because he was jealous.

[ January 30, 2003: Message edited by: Kuruharan ]

[lindil]

There is no indication that Dwarves are bnond-servants to their kings, it is simply unthinkable that Dain could have blocked Balin and co. for any reason other than treason or abandonong a post during war or somesuch.

Surely lords of the race of Durin as Balin was couild come and go at their own wish as long as there was no War or danger to the community.

So all of the arguments of Dan stopping him by force are unrealistic, sure he could have if balin was a threat, but there is no sign that Dain had any more authority to order people of his realm around [ other than his household /guard of course] than the kings of the noldor did.

Do we see Fingon ordering Nargothrond to war? No the order would have been scoffed at.

Just as Noldorin Kings rule by suufferance, I see no sign Dwarven kings were different.
Neither of us can prove otherwise, but it is truly hard to imagine Dain holding a royal cousin against his will just because he wants to.

I fail to see how Dain would be responsible for any Dwarf that leaves his kingdom intent on setting up another.

Do you mean why didn't Dain go to Moria?

No I mean "why did Dain not go back to the Iron hills and leave Erebor to Balin?"

Of course there are only hypothetical answers which we have both provided.

[Kuruharan]

There is no indication that Dwarves are bnond-servants to their kings, it is simply unthinkable that Dain could have blocked Balin and co. for any reason other than treason or abandonong a post during war or somesuch.

I hate to keep beating this horse, and I don't mean to sound patronizing, but what exactly do you think a king's authority was? Kings were in charge, they were The Man. This was not a democracy where people had specific protections from the authority of their leaders. They probably had customary duties to the king that in return the king performed specific responsibilities. However, the people owed obedience to the king as part of the deal. This is how monarchy worked. And this is assuming that the Dwarven monarchy was something along the lines of a tribal structure. If the king ruled by something akin to divine right (which is a possibility because of the fact that the king was the physically present deputy of Durin) then the matter would be slightly different. Then the subjects would have to be obedient just because.

Surely lords of the race of Durin as Balin was couild come and go at their own wish as long as there was no War or danger to the community.

I'm not entirely convinced that Dwarves operated along the feudal lines of having a hierarchy of great lords who could do whatever they wanted.

Well, at least inside specific kingdoms. The conglomeration of kings of all the various realms of the Longbeards obviously had a great deal of autonomy. What I meant is that inside the individual kingdoms there is just not really room for there to be a bunch of fiefs holding from the king. Given the rather limited space I have to believe that (politically at least) the king was in charge.

but there is no sign that Dain had any more authority to order people of his realm around [ other than his household /guard of course] than the kings of the noldor did.

Umm...you are going to have to provide specific examples of the lack of authority kings of the Noldor had inside their own realms. From what I remember, and admittedly I am pressed for time and don't have my books handy, the kings could give orders and be obeyed by their people. I doubt that Turgon's will was flouted very much in Gondolin.

Do we see Fingon ordering Nargothrond to war? No the order would have been scoffed at.

But that is not the same thing. This was inside Dain's own personal kingdom, not a matter of dealing with an under-king. Balin was not set up on his own yet. He was in Dain's kingdom, and king's will have their own way in their own hall you know.

Just as Noldorin Kings rule by suufferance, I see no sign Dwarven kings were different.

As I said above, there are indications that Dwarven kings might be different.

I fail to see how Dain would be responsible for any Dwarf that leaves his kingdom intent on setting up another.

Because this was a political matter. Whatever else, you have to see that kings were the political authority of a people/nation/state or whatever word you want to use. The establishment of a new kingdom is very much a political matter. And Dain would still have been the over-king. Balin's colonists would still in some sense be Dain's people. Remember Dain's words to Thrain about how he (Thrain) was the father of their folk. The tie would still have been there. If Dain had found out about the desperate trouble that Balin had gotten themselves in he would have been obligated to do something to help them.

I'm out of time and must go to class. I'll be back to finish up later.

-----

Okay, it's later.

Basically the one final point I wanted to make was that the way that Gloin said gave leave to go implied, to my mind at least, that Dain's consent was necessary for the colonists departure.

[ January 31, 2003: Message edited by: Kuruharan ]

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Surely the Dwarven attitude towards Moria ought to have been enough of a motivation for a group of them to want to recolonise it. Gimli can't stop talking about the place from the moment they enter Hollin, and it seems that the Dwarrowdelf has a strange attraction for the Dwarves of Durin's folk.

Balin, as a wealthy and respected Dwarf, was in a position to mount an expedition to take back the ancient halls of Durin, and my view is that, having regained the Lonely Mountain from Smaug, Balin's mind was drawn inexorably to the greatest Dwarven halls ever to have been lost to a powerful enemy, a place of almost totemic significance to all Dwarves. It's quite possible that he was thinking that if Smaug could be driven from Erebor, then perhaps whatever had driven out the Dwarves of Moria could be defeated in turn. Perhaps the great halls of Durin could be reclaimed, not just for one Dwarf, but for the whole race. I see Dáin's reluctance as a sign that he did not share Balin's confidence. Any king would be reluctant to allow one of his most powerful and respected lords to take a large group of his other subjects to certain death in the pursuit of a dream; even if that dream was the restoration of his race's most glorious city.

[Osse]

May I just put a slant on this fantastically interesting conversation...

It seems to me that everyone is under the assumption that Balin intended to take Moria for himself, I doubt this to be true - Balin was just the ambitious bloke who had dreams of retaking Moria - for all dwarves. I do believe that he would have intended to keep the title of Lord of Moria in opposition to Dain's title of King of Durin's Folk, but rather as a lieutenant-type figure. I was always under the opinion that Dain left the Iron Hills himself, with the dwarves of his household, but that the majority of the dwarves that lived there still remained. Of course, they would need a lord or mayor-like person to follow - what is to say that Balin wouldn't have acted as an underling to the King, as the Lord of the Iron Hills must have acted -until (or unless) Dain chose to remove his seat to Kazad-dum, however I don't see this occuring whilst Sauron still held sway in the east and certainly the party would make it fit for a King to abide in before he took the journey...

As Squatter said many posts ago, Balin retook moria for all the dwarves, it was just that Dain didn't share his optimism.