Flummoxed - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

GaladrieloftheOlden · 03-19-2003, 03:40 PM

Could anybody tell me whether the word "flummoxed" is a real word? It is used very often, and from the context it seems like it means "confused, bewildered, freaked out..." but I was wondering if Tolkien made it up. I found one entry on it at an online dictionary, but it could have originally been made up by Tolkien in any case, like Hobbit or hafling. By the way, was the word hafling made up by Tolkien?

Edit: The entry that I found online was "To confuse; perplex."

[ March 19, 2003: Message edited by: GaladrieloftheOlden ]

Liriodendron · 03-19-2003, 03:48 PM

I've heard it, and used it! It's in my "American Heritage Dictionary" FLUMMOX- (slang). To confuse; perplex. [origin obscure]

I like it! I think of Bilbo being quite "flummoxed" when Gandalf makes the mark on his door and all the dwarves begin showing up! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

InklingElf · 03-20-2003, 12:25 AM

According to The Oxford Dictionary of Current English, it is a real word [though I rarely use it].

It is a verb and it means [to] bewilder, or disconsert. The origin is not cited.

BTW: Where did you get this word from? [I surely hope it has something to do with Tolkien's book(s)and I'm sure it might be 'cause you said it might be from the Hobbit].

Halfling? Hmmm...I suppose it is. I haven't heard of any other author that uses it.

[ March 20, 2003: Message edited by: InklingElf ]

Selmo · 03-20-2003, 04:20 AM

"Halfling" is in my dictionary.
As it was published in 1901, I've come to the conclusion, after much thought, that Tolkien didn't invent the word.

InklingElf · 03-20-2003, 06:30 PM

Ahh i see. My mistake Selmo [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]. Where'd you find that?

Carorëiel · 03-20-2003, 07:40 PM

From the OED online:

"flummox--trans. To bring to confusion; to ‘do for’, cause to fail; to confound, bewilder, nonplus"

--been in use since at least the 1830s . . .

Hope that helps. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[ March 20, 2003: Message edited by: Carorëiel ]

Carorëiel · 03-20-2003, 07:53 PM

And while I'm being a dorky English major:

(also from the OED on-line--an extremely useful tool, if dorky [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img])

"Halfling 1. One not fully grown; a stripling.

1794 Statist. Acc. Scotl., Forfarsh. XII. 304 (Jam.) Wages of a man servant £10..Of a haflin, £5. 1804 R. ANDERSON Cumberld. Ball. 87 She'd little to de, To tek sec a hawflin as he. Mod. Sc. Advt., Baker, Wanted, a stout Halflin, about 3 years at the trade."

**The Saucepan Man** · 03-21-2003, 09:45 AM

Although invented by JRRT, the word "Hobbit" has entered the OED.

From my Concise Oxford Dictionary:

Quote:

hobbit n. a member of an imaginary race of half-sized people in stories by Tolkien ... invented by JRR Tolkien, Engl. writer d. 1973, and said by him to mean "hole-dweller".

Iarwain · 03-21-2003, 10:06 AM

I love stuff like this, etymologies and such.

A simple curiousity: did the surroundings of Imladris actually consist of a "riven" dell? Would the cause of this apparent fault be the Bruinen? Or, perhaps this is just an odd play on words that Tolkien decided to use.

Iarwain

P.S. Another thought, it's sort of funny that they put Hobbit in the OED, considering Tolkien worked on its production.

[ March 21, 2003: Message edited by: Iarwain ]

InklingElf · 03-21-2003, 12:29 PM

The definition of "hobbit" is also in my dictionary Saucepan -- always comforting to have ME lurking around every corner of the "real" world.

Iarwain: Quite interesting [I also think about these things], although I won't be able to answer it [quite definitely]. That question might be answered in the E.L.F. forum. Meanwhile, I provide no basis for your meaning, with the exception that Tolkien doesn't usually play around words [because his words almost always has a meaning behind it].

GaladrieloftheOlden · 03-21-2003, 12:42 PM

Quote:

BTW: Where did you get this word from? [I surely hope it has something to do with Tolkien's book(s)and I'm sure it might be 'cause you said it might be from the Hobbit].

Yes- I just reread the Hobbit this year, having not read (or have it being read to me) it since- I don't know, Kindergarden, First Grade (?), and noticed the amount of times Tolkien uses the word. Having not heard it before, and not knowing that I could ask the question ont he BDs [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img] I assumed it was a Tolkien-word, and never even thought of using a dictionary. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

piosenniel · 03-21-2003, 12:48 PM

Here's link from The Encyclopedia of Arda for rare and arachaic words used in Tolkien's works, as well as some British colloquialisms which might be unfamiliar to the American reader:

WORDS

InklingElf · 03-21-2003, 12:51 PM

Interesting link piosenniel --I also have many of the words in my Book of Lost Tales I and II

Nyneve · 05-09-2003, 08:08 PM

It is in the title of the book "The Woman who Flumoxed the Faeries" It means tricked or confused

**The Saucepan Man** · 05-09-2003, 09:10 PM

Quote:

... British colloquialisms which might be unfamiliar to the American reader

"Flummoxed" is a word that is still in fairly common use in Britain. I have certainly used it, and heard it used, quite a bit.

Gorwingel · 05-09-2003, 09:28 PM

That is cool that all your dictionaries have hobbit in it.
Mine Doesn't [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]
Darn the Webster's New Ideal Dictionary from 1978 (it is my fathers)
But do you know that hob means mischief/trouble, I wonder if that is why Merry and Pippin are the way they are [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] (I highly doubt it)

Feanor of the Peredhil · 05-11-2003, 09:34 AM

Nice link, Pionsenniel- I'll be sure to use some of those words in my own writing, fiction, non-, and of course poetry. It's always nice being able to find the perfect word and to actually know the meaning.

As well, I've been known to use the word 'flummox' and the suffix '-ling' in everyday speech, and I live in the middle of nowhere (ie: 2 miles from the geographic center of New York.). Cheers,

Fea

Guinevere · 05-12-2003, 02:30 PM

Thank you for the link, Piosenniel!

I always wondered about "confusticate and bebother these dwarves!" in the Hobbit... [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

If some of Tolkien's expressions are unfamiliar even for English-speaking people, you can imagine how it is for the others! (e.g. words like "fey" can't be found in a normal dictionary.)

Lalaith · 05-12-2003, 02:44 PM

Fey isn't in dictionaries? Really? What is the world coming to...
Fey comes from the Germanic/scandinavian feigur, doomed to die. But some people also relate it to the French word for fairy, fee. As Tolkien used it means to have the air of someone about to die. But people these days use it more to mean skittish, vague, otherworldly, as in, like one of the fairy folk.
One of my brothers learnt his English chiefly from Tolkien, and as a result sounded rather eccentric to native speakers, particularly when he was a teenager. I'll never forget the face of the Cockney London sports shop assistant when my brother, aged about 14, asked him with a heavy accent "can you take this bow asunder?"

[ May 12, 2003: Message edited by: Lalaith ]

HerenIstarion · 05-31-2004, 09:13 AM

I do remember reading someplace that hobbit is enlisted as one of the kinds of Fairy Folk in some list made by someone by the end of XIX AD. I'll try to dig it up

Sirithheruwen · 05-31-2004, 09:15 AM

Fey isn't in dictionaries? Whew! I used it for a scrabble game the other day, and my opponant was contemplating looking it up and challenging me.

I live on luck...

Son of Númenor · 05-31-2004, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Fey isn't in dictionaries?

Sure it is.

Guinevere · 05-31-2004, 12:26 PM

I was referring to normal-sized printed dictionaries, German-English! I have 3 at home, and none of it had "fey" in it, not even the fat one. I found it, however, in my Oxford Concise dictionary (English-English) The German-English dictionary my son has for school doesn't even have words like "wraith" "to wield" "fell" in it! (not modern enough, I guess, alas!

)

Estelyn Telcontar · 05-31-2004, 02:28 PM

Guinevere, I found "flummox", "fey" and all of the words you mentioned in my English-German dictionary. It's a Langenscheidt's Großes Schulwörterbuch, 1996 version. "Hobbit" is not included, though "hob" is defined as a "Kobold", an imp or goblin.

Guinevere · 06-01-2004, 02:29 AM

Well, it seems my dictionaries (They're also Langenscheidt) are not large enough!

Anyhow, I just wanted to say that reading Tolkien is quite a challenge to people with only a small or average knowledge of English (My son gave up after the first chapter of the Hobbit... and I know others who just read on but never bother to look up all the words they don't understand)

Thanks Piosenniel for the link to the online-dictionary! (I have overcome my dislike for computers and found the blessings of the internet only after having become a Tolkien fan !

)

The Squatter of Amon Rûdh · 06-01-2004, 03:31 PM

Although the only usable definition of this word is the one invented by Tolkien, it does occur in the Denham Tracts, a series of jottings on folklore collected by Michael Denham during the 1840s and 50s. It appears in a list of supernatural creatures, and is defined by Denham as 'a class of spirit'. There's an outside possibility that Tolkien had read this work and remembered the name, but it's more likely to be a coincidence.

This information came to light in 1979, but the staff of the Oxford English Dictionary had previously asked Tolkien for a definition of 'Hobbit', which still forms the basis for theirs.

Estelyn Telcontar · 06-01-2004, 03:34 PM

I remembered that there was a thread about rare and arcane vocabulary some time ago and searched for it. We discussed Tolkien's usage of words like 'fey' and 'doom' on Tolkien vocabulary - enjoy!

HerenIstarion · 06-02-2004, 05:48 AM

Thx, Squatter, that's the thing I vaguely remembered and promised to dig up. You let me off

Mithalwen · 06-14-2004, 11:43 AM

Yep...flummox and fey are not too obscure ...especially not flummox...... ...i have and would use both though I think I would be more likely to use flummox in speech than writing...

can't say I have ever used confusticate or bebother though.....

03-19-2003, 03:40 PM	#1
GaladrieloftheOlden Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Massachusetts - digging up a bottomless hole, searching for something that's not there... Posts: 1,514	Flummoxed Could anybody tell me whether the word "flummoxed" is a real word? It is used very often, and from the context it seems like it means "confused, bewildered, freaked out..." but I was wondering if Tolkien made it up. I found one entry on it at an online dictionary, but it could have originally been made up by Tolkien in any case, like Hobbit or hafling. By the way, was the word hafling made up by Tolkien? Edit: The entry that I found online was "To confuse; perplex." [ March 19, 2003: Message edited by: GaladrieloftheOlden ] __________________ "Glue... very powerful stuff."

03-19-2003, 03:48 PM	#2
Liriodendron Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Indiana Posts: 527	I've heard it, and used it! It's in my "American Heritage Dictionary" FLUMMOX- (slang). To confuse; perplex. [origin obscure] I like it! I think of Bilbo being quite "flummoxed" when Gandalf makes the mark on his door and all the dwarves begin showing up! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ http://www.lizmargason.com

03-20-2003, 07:40 PM	#6
Carorëiel Haunting Spirit Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Tennessee Posts: 54	From the OED online: "flummox--trans. To bring to confusion; to ‘do for’, cause to fail; to confound, bewilder, nonplus" --been in use since at least the 1830s . . . Hope that helps. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] [ March 20, 2003: Message edited by: Carorëiel ] __________________ "Art is our way of keeping track of what we know and have known, secretly, from the beginning."--John Gardner

03-20-2003, 07:53 PM	#7
Carorëiel Haunting Spirit Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Tennessee Posts: 54	And while I'm being a dorky English major: (also from the OED on-line--an extremely useful tool, if dorky [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]) "Halfling 1. One not fully grown; a stripling. 1794 Statist. Acc. Scotl., Forfarsh. XII. 304 (Jam.) Wages of a man servant £10..Of a haflin, £5. 1804 R. ANDERSON Cumberld. Ball. 87 She'd little to de, To tek sec a hawflin as he. Mod. Sc. Advt., Baker, Wanted, a stout Halflin, about 3 years at the trade." __________________ "Art is our way of keeping track of what we know and have known, secretly, from the beginning."--John Gardner

03-21-2003, 10:06 AM	#9
Iarwain Pugnaciously Primordial Paradox Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Birnham Wood Posts: 800	I love stuff like this, etymologies and such. A simple curiousity: did the surroundings of Imladris actually consist of a "riven" dell? Would the cause of this apparent fault be the Bruinen? Or, perhaps this is just an odd play on words that Tolkien decided to use. Iarwain P.S. Another thought, it's sort of funny that they put Hobbit in the OED, considering Tolkien worked on its production. [ March 21, 2003: Message edited by: Iarwain ] __________________ "And what are oaths but words we say to God?"

03-20-2003, 12:25 AM	#3
InklingElf Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 402	According to The Oxford Dictionary of Current English, it is a real word [though I rarely use it]. It is a verb and it means [to] bewilder, or disconsert. The origin is not cited. BTW: Where did you get this word from? [I surely hope it has something to do with Tolkien's book(s)and I'm sure it might be 'cause you said it might be from the Hobbit]. Halfling? Hmmm...I suppose it is. I haven't heard of any other author that uses it. [ March 20, 2003: Message edited by: InklingElf ]

03-20-2003, 04:20 AM	#4
Selmo Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: The Shire (Staffordshire), United Kingdom Posts: 273	"Halfling" is in my dictionary. As it was published in 1901, I've come to the conclusion, after much thought, that Tolkien didn't invent the word.

03-20-2003, 06:30 PM	#5
InklingElf Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 402	Ahh i see. My mistake Selmo [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]. Where'd you find that?

03-21-2003, 12:29 PM	#10
InklingElf Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 402	The definition of "hobbit" is also in my dictionary Saucepan -- always comforting to have ME lurking around every corner of the "real" world. Iarwain: Quite interesting [I also think about these things], although I won't be able to answer it [quite definitely]. That question might be answered in the E.L.F. forum. Meanwhile, I provide no basis for your meaning, with the exception that Tolkien doesn't usually play around words [because his words almost always has a meaning behind it].

03-21-2003, 12:48 PM	#12
piosenniel Desultory Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Pickin' flowers with Bill the Cat..... Posts: 7,779	Here's link from The Encyclopedia of Arda for rare and arachaic words used in Tolkien's works, as well as some British colloquialisms which might be unfamiliar to the American reader: WORDS __________________ Eldest, that’s what I am . . . I knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside.

03-21-2003, 12:51 PM	#13
InklingElf Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 402	Interesting link piosenniel --I also have many of the words in my Book of Lost Tales I and II

05-09-2003, 08:08 PM	#14
Nyneve Animated Skeleton Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: The Place Between the Twighlight and the Dawn Posts: 29	It is in the title of the book "The Woman who Flumoxed the Faeries" It means tricked or confused __________________ Yet do thy worst, old Time: despite thy wrong, My love shall in my verse ever live young.--W.S.

05-09-2003, 09:28 PM	#16
Gorwingel Beholder of the Mists Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Somewhere in the Northwest... for now Posts: 1,419	That is cool that all your dictionaries have hobbit in it. Mine Doesn't [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] Darn the Webster's New Ideal Dictionary from 1978 (it is my fathers) But do you know that hob means mischief/trouble, I wonder if that is why Merry and Pippin are the way they are [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] (I highly doubt it) __________________ Wanted - Wonderfully witty quote that consists of pure brilliance

05-11-2003, 09:34 AM	#17
Feanor of the Peredhil La Belle Dame sans Merci Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: perpetual uncertainty Posts: 5,517	Nice link, Pionsenniel- I'll be sure to use some of those words in my own writing, fiction, non-, and of course poetry. It's always nice being able to find the perfect word and to actually know the meaning. As well, I've been known to use the word 'flummox' and the suffix '-ling' in everyday speech, and I live in the middle of nowhere (ie: 2 miles from the geographic center of New York.). Cheers, Fea __________________ peace

05-12-2003, 02:30 PM	#18
Guinevere Banshee of Camelot Join Date: May 2002 Location: Switzerland Posts: 5,830	Thank you for the link, Piosenniel! I always wondered about "confusticate and bebother these dwarves!" in the Hobbit... [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] If some of Tolkien's expressions are unfamiliar even for English-speaking people, you can imagine how it is for the others! (e.g. words like "fey" can't be found in a normal dictionary.) __________________ Yes! "wish-fulfilment dreams" we spin to cheat our timid hearts, and ugly Fact defeat!

05-12-2003, 02:44 PM	#19
Lalaith Blithe Spirit Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,779	Fey isn't in dictionaries? Really? What is the world coming to... Fey comes from the Germanic/scandinavian feigur, doomed to die. But some people also relate it to the French word for fairy, fee. As Tolkien used it means to have the air of someone about to die. But people these days use it more to mean skittish, vague, otherworldly, as in, like one of the fairy folk. One of my brothers learnt his English chiefly from Tolkien, and as a result sounded rather eccentric to native speakers, particularly when he was a teenager. I'll never forget the face of the Cockney London sports shop assistant when my brother, aged about 14, asked him with a heavy accent "can you take this bow asunder?" [ May 12, 2003: Message edited by: Lalaith ] __________________ Out went the candle, and we were left darkling

05-31-2004, 09:13 AM	#20
HerenIstarion Deadnight Chanter Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 4,244	I do remember reading someplace that hobbit is enlisted as one of the kinds of Fairy Folk in some list made by someone by the end of XIX AD. I'll try to dig it up __________________ Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time!

05-31-2004, 09:15 AM	#21
Sirithheruwen Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2003 Location: Wind's Road Posts: 467	Fey isn't in dictionaries? Whew! I used it for a scrabble game the other day, and my opponant was contemplating looking it up and challenging me. I live on luck... __________________ "My name is Mallard, but you can call me Duck." ~Random Saying, compliments of Sirith and her best friend, concerning a book.

05-31-2004, 12:26 PM	#23
Guinevere Banshee of Camelot Join Date: May 2002 Location: Switzerland Posts: 5,830	I was referring to normal-sized printed dictionaries, German-English! I have 3 at home, and none of it had "fey" in it, not even the fat one. I found it, however, in my Oxford Concise dictionary (English-English) The German-English dictionary my son has for school doesn't even have words like "wraith" "to wield" "fell" in it! (not modern enough, I guess, alas! ) __________________ Yes! "wish-fulfilment dreams" we spin to cheat our timid hearts, and ugly Fact defeat!

05-31-2004, 02:28 PM	#24
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	Guinevere, I found "flummox", "fey" and all of the words you mentioned in my English-German dictionary. It's a Langenscheidt's Großes Schulwörterbuch, 1996 version. "Hobbit" is not included, though "hob" is defined as a "Kobold", an imp or goblin. __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

06-01-2004, 02:29 AM	#25
Guinevere Banshee of Camelot Join Date: May 2002 Location: Switzerland Posts: 5,830	Well, it seems my dictionaries (They're also Langenscheidt) are not large enough! Anyhow, I just wanted to say that reading Tolkien is quite a challenge to people with only a small or average knowledge of English (My son gave up after the first chapter of the Hobbit... and I know others who just read on but never bother to look up all the words they don't understand) Thanks Piosenniel for the link to the online-dictionary! (I have overcome my dislike for computers and found the blessings of the internet only after having become a Tolkien fan ! ) __________________ Yes! "wish-fulfilment dreams" we spin to cheat our timid hearts, and ugly Fact defeat!

06-01-2004, 03:31 PM	#26
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh Spectre of Decay Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Bar-en-Danwedh Posts: 2,178	Concerning 'Hobbit' Although the only usable definition of this word is the one invented by Tolkien, it does occur in the Denham Tracts, a series of jottings on folklore collected by Michael Denham during the 1840s and 50s. It appears in a list of supernatural creatures, and is defined by Denham as 'a class of spirit'. There's an outside possibility that Tolkien had read this work and remembered the name, but it's more likely to be a coincidence. This information came to light in 1979, but the staff of the Oxford English Dictionary had previously asked Tolkien for a definition of 'Hobbit', which still forms the basis for theirs. __________________ Man kenuva métim' andúne? Last edited by The Squatter of Amon Rûdh; 06-06-2004 at 07:36 AM.

06-01-2004, 03:34 PM	#27
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	I remembered that there was a thread about rare and arcane vocabulary some time ago and searched for it. We discussed Tolkien's usage of words like 'fey' and 'doom' on Tolkien vocabulary - enjoy! __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

06-02-2004, 05:48 AM	#28
HerenIstarion Deadnight Chanter Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 4,244	Thx, Squatter, that's the thing I vaguely remembered and promised to dig up. You let me off __________________ Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time!

06-14-2004, 11:43 AM	#29
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,458	Yep...flummox and fey are not too obscure ...especially not flummox...... ...i have and would use both though I think I would be more likely to use flummox in speech than writing... can't say I have ever used confusticate or bebother though.....