Half-man half-orc men - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Angry Brandybuck · 01-23-2004, 08:33 AM

When Merry and Pippin go to Isenguard they notice that there are some men who look especially evil, with slanted eyes and such. I think it is either Gandalf or Aragorn that tells them that Saruman has been experimenting with crossing men with orcs.

I was just wondering how that would work.

Potatothan · 01-23-2004, 08:38 AM

Well, according to the stupid ring parody he used violin and barry white music. But in realety, I don't want to think about it. Orc's got children just as elves, man and dwarves. So it is completly obvious why Gandalf called it an evil deed when saruman crossed orcs with goblin-men. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

~Potatothan

Finwe · 01-23-2004, 11:18 AM

More than the fact that he crossed Orcs with Men was the fact that he had tried to make creatures of his own. That was Sauron's greatest sin, in the eyes of Gandalf. Only Iluvatar had the power to truly create. All that Sauron (and Morgoth) could do was twist, and mutilate, and destroy. Sauron may have thought he was creating, but he was only twisting and rending and mutilating.

Angry Brandybuck · 01-23-2004, 01:12 PM

I don't mean to get all anally retentive and picky, but this has nothing to do with Sauron. Sauron's experiments with crossing Man and Orc were 'successful' in creating the Uruk-Hai.

It shows that Saruman was a lot less powerful than he thought he was because his experiments largely failed.

I still don't get it though, I never thought that Orcs reproduced sexually, isn't it something to do with coming out of the ground?

Potatothan · 01-23-2004, 01:57 PM

Nah, I think it is the same as with dwarves and your parents. Deep down inside you know they do it to get offspring, but you just don't WANT to know it.

~Potatothan

Finwe · 01-23-2004, 06:30 PM

Angry Brandybuck, you might want to re-read the books again. The Uruk-hai were created by Sauron, NOT Saruman. That is one place where the movie has misled many people. Saruman did breed Orcs and Goblin-men, but they were not the Uruk-hai.

Angry Brandybuck · 01-23-2004, 06:40 PM

I think you will find that earlier I said that it was Sauron who 'created' the Uruk-Hai but Saruman himself was experimenting with breeding man and orc. I don't know where you get the idea of breeding orc and goblin, because they are the same species. As stated in the Encyclopedia of Arda.

I have not been misled by the film, being an original devotee from before the films were even made!!!

***Sharkû*** · 01-23-2004, 09:07 PM

Check our Haudh-en-Ndengin index.

**The Saucepan Man** · 01-23-2004, 11:01 PM

Quote:

I never thought that Orcs reproduced sexually, isn't it something to do with coming out of the ground?

Now that is from the films. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] There is nothing to suggest that they didn't. And the evidence suggests that they did. For example, Bolg was the son of Azog.

Angry Brandybuck · 01-24-2004, 03:41 AM

Yeah you're right. I think I also got it from playing Warhammer games. Because Orcs in that did have something to do with coming out of the ground.

Sorry about the rudeness of the last post.

01-25-2004, 10:30 PM

The Uruk-Hai were created by Saruman (as much as I hated how the film portrayed this).

Remember Ugluk was a Uruk, and Grishnakh was from Lugburz (Barad-Dur).

The following quote is from the Two Towers, page 436:

"We are the fighting Uruk-hai! We slew the great warrior. We took the prisoners. We are the servants of Saruman the Wise, the White Hand: the Hand that gives us man's-flesh to eat. We came out of Isengard, and led you here, and we shall lead you back by the way we choose. I am Ugluk. I have spoken."

I think it's pretty clear from that dialog that the Uruk-hai had to be created by Saruman.

Rider of Rohan · 01-25-2004, 11:02 PM

Good thoughts about Blog and Azog...I was going to mention it myself. This raises another question though. Does this indicate familial bonds between orcs? Are they not the mindless creatures we have grown to love/hate. Or does this show the kinder gentler daddy orc we have always dreamed of? While we are at it...where are all the orc women?

Kransha · 01-26-2004, 11:15 AM

I was under the impression that uruk-hai were orcs bred with goblin men by Saruman, though Sauron still posessed many uruks after the fall of Isengard. According to some sources I remember, some wild men (perhaps Variags or Dunlendings) offered to be changed by Saruman to gain power and fighting prowess. They were half-orcs, part wild man, part orc.

samrohan · 01-26-2004, 11:23 AM

I always thought that Uruks were half men half Orcs, therefore making them stronger, wiser and all-together more eveil of nature and spirit.

**The Saucepan Man** · 01-26-2004, 11:49 AM

It's worth reading the threads in the Index linked to by Sharkû, since they address many of these points.

As I understand it, Uruk-Hai were simply a large, strong form of Orc, more resistant to sunlight than standard Orcs, originally "bred" by Sauron. The name means, I think, "Orc folk". There is no suggestion that they were derived from cross-breeding with Men (although it remains possible that they were).

Saruman had Uruk-Hai at his disposal too at the time of the War of the Ring. But these are not to be confused with the Orc-Man hybrids that he is referred to in LotR as having created.

The films certainly seem to have generated a lot of confusion on this issue. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

Findegil · 01-26-2004, 11:53 AM

The Uruks or Uruk-Hai which I believe to be the same were created by Sauron. That Uglug, as aservant of Saruman, called him self an Uruk-hai does not profe that wrong, since Saruman had also normal orcs in his armys, which he also did not creat by himself. And Uglug might not have know his owne ancestry. What Saruman did creat was a further mix of Dunlandings with orcs. The result were orclike man (the friend of Bill Ferny in Bree was an example of this kind) and manlike orcs (Uglug is my be one of them).

Respectfully
Findegil

Kaiserin · 01-26-2004, 07:30 PM

When Ugluk said that he served Saruman it doesn't necessarily mean that he was created by Saruman.

Just to get things clear - we are talking about half-orcs here, aren't we? Uruk-hai are not the same as half-orcs.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 8:31 PM January 26, 2004: Message edited by: Kaiserin ]

symestreem · 05-22-2004, 03:55 PM

Goblin-men? What does that mean? If it means male goblins, isn't that just the same thing as breeding an orc with another orc?

05-29-2004, 11:17 PM

The origonal question was HOW did the orcs and men breed, correct? Well, since we're all throwing our own little opinions in, I may as well, as I have many of them. :P

1) In my imagination, Saruman used his wizardry to trick the women into believing the orcs were men (either their husbands or just men whom they would know) and led them on to impregnate the women as well who in turn gave birth to orc/men.

2) Contradicting idea #1 goes the facts that Saruman wouldn't have time to do this, and it wouldn't sufficiently create an army of orc-men, so instead of physically breeding orc and man, he did indeed cast some spell upon orc and men to where their bodies intertwined and mixed together forming one being of and evil orc-man.

Angry Hill Troll · 05-30-2004, 11:04 AM

Twilight One,

I agree that the chronology of Saruman raising an army of Orc-Human hybrids is a little complicated in terms of how he did it so fast. Tolkien does say in Myths Transformed that nevertheless, Saruman did exactly that:

Quote:

It became clear in time that undoubtedly Men could under the domination of Morgoth or his agents be reduced almost to Orc-level of mind and habits; and then they would or could be made to mate with Orcs, producing new breeds, often larger and more cunning. There is no doubt that long afterwards, in the Third Age, Saruman rediscovered this, or learned of it in lore, and in his lust for mastery committed this, his wickedest deed: the interbreeding of Orcs and Men, producing both Men-orcs large and cunning, and Orc-men treacherous and vile.

Perhaps Saruman had his breeding program in place secretly for quite a while, whilst still keeping up appearances as one of the "good guys".

The larger point of this whole section of Myths Transformed is speculation of the origin of orcs (Tolkien kept changing his mind on this matter) and whether Orcs had fëa and free will (probably not, unless they were really corrupted Elves and/or Men, an idea which Tolkien seems to largely discard.

So, assuming Orcs are not corrupted Children of Ilúvatar and do not possess fëa or free will, what of Orc-human hybrids? Just thought this thread could use some more covtroversy

05-30-2004, 11:26 AM

Well I stand corrected! It seems in that quote there are two seperate breeds of creature, men-orcs and orc-men. So for instance if orcs don't have free will, and obviously men do, the men-orcs would have free will while the orc-men didn't, being orc-dominant so to speak.

More controversy indeed.

01-23-2004, 08:38 AM	#2
Potatothan Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Traveling from one warm bed to another Posts: 52	Well, according to the stupid ring parody he used violin and barry white music. But in realety, I don't want to think about it. Orc's got children just as elves, man and dwarves. So it is completly obvious why Gandalf called it an evil deed when saruman crossed orcs with goblin-men. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ~Potatothan __________________ Are we humans or are we called humans?

01-23-2004, 11:18 AM	#3
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	More than the fact that he crossed Orcs with Men was the fact that he had tried to make creatures of his own. That was Sauron's greatest sin, in the eyes of Gandalf. Only Iluvatar had the power to truly create. All that Sauron (and Morgoth) could do was twist, and mutilate, and destroy. Sauron may have thought he was creating, but he was only twisting and rending and mutilating. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

01-23-2004, 01:12 PM	#4
Angry Brandybuck Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Wotton-on-the-Edge Posts: 86	I don't mean to get all anally retentive and picky, but this has nothing to do with Sauron. Sauron's experiments with crossing Man and Orc were 'successful' in creating the Uruk-Hai. It shows that Saruman was a lot less powerful than he thought he was because his experiments largely failed. I still don't get it though, I never thought that Orcs reproduced sexually, isn't it something to do with coming out of the ground? __________________ The pain of war cannot exceed the woe of aftermath, The drums will shake the castle wall, the ring wraiths ride in black, Ride on.

01-23-2004, 01:57 PM	#5
Potatothan Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Traveling from one warm bed to another Posts: 52	Nah, I think it is the same as with dwarves and your parents. Deep down inside you know they do it to get offspring, but you just don't WANT to know it. ~Potatothan __________________ Are we humans or are we called humans?

01-23-2004, 06:30 PM	#6
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	Angry Brandybuck, you might want to re-read the books again. The Uruk-hai were created by Sauron, NOT Saruman. That is one place where the movie has misled many people. Saruman did breed Orcs and Goblin-men, but they were not the Uruk-hai. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

01-23-2004, 08:33 AM	#1
Angry Brandybuck Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Wotton-on-the-Edge Posts: 86	Half-man half-orc men When Merry and Pippin go to Isenguard they notice that there are some men who look especially evil, with slanted eyes and such. I think it is either Gandalf or Aragorn that tells them that Saruman has been experimenting with crossing men with orcs. I was just wondering how that would work. __________________ The pain of war cannot exceed the woe of aftermath, The drums will shake the castle wall, the ring wraiths ride in black, Ride on.

01-23-2004, 06:40 PM	#7
Angry Brandybuck Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Wotton-on-the-Edge Posts: 86	I think you will find that earlier I said that it was Sauron who 'created' the Uruk-Hai but Saruman himself was experimenting with breeding man and orc. I don't know where you get the idea of breeding orc and goblin, because they are the same species. As stated in the Encyclopedia of Arda. I have not been misled by the film, being an original devotee from before the films were even made!!! __________________ The pain of war cannot exceed the woe of aftermath, The drums will shake the castle wall, the ring wraiths ride in black, Ride on.

01-23-2004, 09:07 PM	#8
*Sharkû* Hungry Ghoul Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 1,719	Check our Haudh-en-Ndengin index.

01-24-2004, 03:41 AM	#10
Angry Brandybuck Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Wotton-on-the-Edge Posts: 86	Yeah you're right. I think I also got it from playing Warhammer games. Because Orcs in that did have something to do with coming out of the ground. Sorry about the rudeness of the last post. __________________ The pain of war cannot exceed the woe of aftermath, The drums will shake the castle wall, the ring wraiths ride in black, Ride on.

01-25-2004, 10:30 PM	#11
Beren-in-NJ Guest Posts: n/a	The Uruk-Hai were created by Saruman (as much as I hated how the film portrayed this). Remember Ugluk was a Uruk, and Grishnakh was from Lugburz (Barad-Dur). The following quote is from the Two Towers, page 436: "We are the fighting Uruk-hai! We slew the great warrior. We took the prisoners. We are the servants of Saruman the Wise, the White Hand: the Hand that gives us man's-flesh to eat. We came out of Isengard, and led you here, and we shall lead you back by the way we choose. I am Ugluk. I have spoken." I think it's pretty clear from that dialog that the Uruk-hai had to be created by Saruman.

01-25-2004, 11:02 PM	#12
Rider of Rohan Pile O'Bones Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: IWU Posts: 14	Good thoughts about Blog and Azog...I was going to mention it myself. This raises another question though. Does this indicate familial bonds between orcs? Are they not the mindless creatures we have grown to love/hate. Or does this show the kinder gentler daddy orc we have always dreamed of? While we are at it...where are all the orc women?

01-26-2004, 11:15 AM	#13
Kransha Ubiquitous Urulóki Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: The port of Mars, where Famine, Sword, and Fire, leash'd in like hounds, crouch for employment Posts: 747	I was under the impression that uruk-hai were orcs bred with goblin men by Saruman, though Sauron still posessed many uruks after the fall of Isengard. According to some sources I remember, some wild men (perhaps Variags or Dunlendings) offered to be changed by Saruman to gain power and fighting prowess. They were half-orcs, part wild man, part orc. __________________ "What mortal feels not awe/Nor trembles at our name, Hearing our fate-appointed power sublime/Fixed by the eternal law. For old our office, and our fame," -Aeschylus, Song of the Furies

01-26-2004, 11:23 AM	#14
samrohan Wight Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Touring Minas Tirith with Gimli and Legolas Posts: 107	I always thought that Uruks were half men half Orcs, therefore making them stronger, wiser and all-together more eveil of nature and spirit. __________________ I can't believe I have not watched the return of the king yet.

01-26-2004, 11:49 AM	#15
The Saucepan Man Corpus Cacophonous Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A green and pleasant land Posts: 8,390	It's worth reading the threads in the Index linked to by Sharkû, since they address many of these points. As I understand it, Uruk-Hai were simply a large, strong form of Orc, more resistant to sunlight than standard Orcs, originally "bred" by Sauron. The name means, I think, "Orc folk". There is no suggestion that they were derived from cross-breeding with Men (although it remains possible that they were). Saruman had Uruk-Hai at his disposal too at the time of the War of the Ring. But these are not to be confused with the Orc-Man hybrids that he is referred to in LotR as having created. The films certainly seem to have generated a lot of confusion on this issue. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] __________________ Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!

01-26-2004, 11:53 AM	#16
Findegil King's Writer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,721	The Uruks or Uruk-Hai which I believe to be the same were created by Sauron. That Uglug, as aservant of Saruman, called him self an Uruk-hai does not profe that wrong, since Saruman had also normal orcs in his armys, which he also did not creat by himself. And Uglug might not have know his owne ancestry. What Saruman did creat was a further mix of Dunlandings with orcs. The result were orclike man (the friend of Bill Ferny in Bree was an example of this kind) and manlike orcs (Uglug is my be one of them). Respectfully Findegil

01-26-2004, 07:30 PM	#17
Kaiserin Wight Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cair Paravel Posts: 150	When Ugluk said that he served Saruman it doesn't necessarily mean that he was created by Saruman. Just to get things clear - we are talking about half-orcs here, aren't we? Uruk-hai are not the same as half-orcs. <font size=1 color=339966>[ 8:31 PM January 26, 2004: Message edited by: Kaiserin ] __________________ The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

05-22-2004, 03:55 PM	#18
symestreem Face in the Water Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 728	Goblin-men? What does that mean? If it means male goblins, isn't that just the same thing as breeding an orc with another orc?

05-29-2004, 11:17 PM	#19
Twilight One Guest Posts: n/a	The origonal question was HOW did the orcs and men breed, correct? Well, since we're all throwing our own little opinions in, I may as well, as I have many of them. :P 1) In my imagination, Saruman used his wizardry to trick the women into believing the orcs were men (either their husbands or just men whom they would know) and led them on to impregnate the women as well who in turn gave birth to orc/men. 2) Contradicting idea #1 goes the facts that Saruman wouldn't have time to do this, and it wouldn't sufficiently create an army of orc-men, so instead of physically breeding orc and man, he did indeed cast some spell upon orc and men to where their bodies intertwined and mixed together forming one being of and evil orc-man.

05-30-2004, 11:26 AM	#21
Twilight One Guest Posts: n/a	Well I stand corrected! It seems in that quote there are two seperate breeds of creature, men-orcs and orc-men. So for instance if orcs don't have free will, and obviously men do, the men-orcs would have free will while the orc-men didn't, being orc-dominant so to speak. More controversy indeed.