Where is Middle-Earth? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

07-02-2002, 02:07 PM

This is a topic that really interests me - its been covered a little, if i've missed a good posting on the subject sorry and please redirect me.

where is middle earth? it could be said that its completely fictious and has no roots in reality, but i think not. i dont think tolkien was ever 'copying' from history, but he certainly had a sense of geography and history.

1. the shire. from its name and description i think its almost certainly based on england, more specifically the agricultural south where tolkien grew up. the hobbits represent the simple country people tolkien knew.

2. the dwarfs. the dwarfs seem to have strong norse influences in writing and culture.

3. the elves. could the elves represent the celts? im not really sure on this one, but they seem like the celts - mysterious and magical but receding in numbers and migrating to the west.

4. mordor and gondor. by the way they are positioned, mordor/gondor look a lot like turkey/byzantine empire. from c.1000 to c.1500 there was an epic struggle between the ottoman empire (turkey) and the byzantine (or eastern roman) empire. the byzantines were waning in strength, and eventually just constantinople (their capital city) was left, acting as the only defence against turkey. this seems very much like minas tirith vs. mordor, and many saw it as a struggle of (christian) good against (islamic) evil.

well its mainly conjecture on my part and probably wrong, but please tell me what u think the explanation of middle earth is

Anorien · 07-02-2002, 02:11 PM

Some people actually think that Tolien's middle earth was set in the middle of the earth,. As in, inside the earth. That is because then, no one knew what it looked like. But, now, people are beginning to think that it is here on our own world, just the face has changed so much, it doesn't really look the same. Take a look at a Middle Earth Map, and you'll see the similarities to England and Africa. YOu think he was trying to get somewhere with that...? [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]

Lindolirian · 07-02-2002, 05:53 PM

Take a look at this map. Arda Map
The land mass labled "Hither Lands" with the Grey Mts. could be Africa. The "Straits of the World" is the Middle East. Beleriand could be a modified Europe. Just look at it a while and try to imagine our world. Its hautingly familiar. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Calencoire · 07-02-2002, 05:54 PM

I've noticed the similarities too, with how ME resembles Europe. He may not have intended ME to seem like our world, but this is the only world we know and how can you not have some resemblences? And another thing I noticed when I looked at the map: if Middle Earth would equal Eurpoe, then Valinor would be about where North America is, if you've seen the map. ??? and with the island of Numenor, which sank, maybe that might be his version of Atlantis, since no one knows where that is.??? I don't know about any of this for sure, I'm just making guesses on the mysteries of the similatities of ME to our world.

NazgulNumber10 · 07-02-2002, 05:59 PM

middle earth is in us. It lives in our heats and minds.

07-03-2002, 11:19 AM

yes i agree, the idea of numenor = atlantis? occured to me too, especially with the details of its downfall. the americas also seem like a good candidate for the unknown land across the sea. during the medieval period (the sort of time LOTR seems to be set) the americas were an unknown land which just a few people started to travel to.

GreatWarg · 07-03-2002, 11:30 AM

Actually, Valinor is believed to have become beyond the reach of Mortals. SO therefore, Valinor would be more like heaven, in a sense.

07-03-2002, 11:55 AM

Well, Tolkien said that Arda was our world, and that LotR happened about 6,000 years ago. He also said that Hobbiton and Rivendell were on the same latitude as Oxford, so there ya go [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]. A while back, on one of the LotR newsgroups, I tried to work out how the subsequent Ages ended.began, as Tolkien said that we are in the 6th or 7th Age (and thta they are getting shorter too). Seeing as (a) he was a devout Christian, and, (b) wanted to create a mythology for England, which would mesh with Christianity, it would make sense if Noah's Flood ended one of the post-LotR Ages. This could change Middle-earth's surface enough to look like it currently does [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img].
Harad is definately Africa etc. IMHO, so RHun would be Asia, Fornost (I'm not sure if that's its name, could be Lossarnach, (don't have map to hand) I'm reffering to that bit of land that arcs north) would be Scandanaveia, and so the Undiscovered Lands would be the Americas (not Valinor, as, as had been said, they are out of reach by 'conventional' travel).
Tolkien also said that Numenor was his Atlantis, and was inspired by a dream he frequently had of a Great Wave drowining the world (a dream some of his children also had repeatedly, though they did not know they shared the dream for many years. Strange [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img].).

Estelyn Telcontar · 07-04-2002, 06:16 AM

Hmmm, Eomund, what an intriguing comparison - Elves and Celts!!

Quote:

mysterious and magical but receding in numbers and migrating to the west

That's one I haven't heard or thought of before!
As for the comparison between Númenor and Atlantis, it is made even more clear in the Akallabêth (Silmarillion), where we are told that Númenor was later called Atalantë, meaning "The Downfallen", the Quenya equivalent to Akallabêth (Númenórean word, same meaning).

07-07-2002, 11:27 PM

"...but the exiles on the shores of the sea, if they turned towards the West in the desire of their hearts, spoke of Mar-nu-Falmar that was whelmed in the waves, Akallabeth the Downfallen, Atalantë in the Eldarin tongue."

I remember the first day I read that line - I just sat there, dumbfounded. Obviously Numenor was Atlantis. How was it that had never occurred to me before? And of course, if Numenor was Atlantis, well... there the repercussions start. I just sat there, letting those thoughts wash over me for quite a while.

Anorien · 07-08-2002, 12:42 AM

You also have to remember that Tolkien has said that he didn't create middle earth, but he is simply retelling it's history in our tongue...I'm not saying that is true, just something to think about. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

07-02-2002, 02:07 PM	#1
edmundfox Guest Posts: n/a	Where is Middle-Earth? This is a topic that really interests me - its been covered a little, if i've missed a good posting on the subject sorry and please redirect me. where is middle earth? it could be said that its completely fictious and has no roots in reality, but i think not. i dont think tolkien was ever 'copying' from history, but he certainly had a sense of geography and history. 1. the shire. from its name and description i think its almost certainly based on england, more specifically the agricultural south where tolkien grew up. the hobbits represent the simple country people tolkien knew. 2. the dwarfs. the dwarfs seem to have strong norse influences in writing and culture. 3. the elves. could the elves represent the celts? im not really sure on this one, but they seem like the celts - mysterious and magical but receding in numbers and migrating to the west. 4. mordor and gondor. by the way they are positioned, mordor/gondor look a lot like turkey/byzantine empire. from c.1000 to c.1500 there was an epic struggle between the ottoman empire (turkey) and the byzantine (or eastern roman) empire. the byzantines were waning in strength, and eventually just constantinople (their capital city) was left, acting as the only defence against turkey. this seems very much like minas tirith vs. mordor, and many saw it as a struggle of (christian) good against (islamic) evil. well its mainly conjecture on my part and probably wrong, but please tell me what u think the explanation of middle earth is

07-02-2002, 02:11 PM	#2
Anorien Wight Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Old Navy of Rohan Posts: 138	Some people actually think that Tolien's middle earth was set in the middle of the earth,. As in, inside the earth. That is because then, no one knew what it looked like. But, now, people are beginning to think that it is here on our own world, just the face has changed so much, it doesn't really look the same. Take a look at a Middle Earth Map, and you'll see the similarities to England and Africa. YOu think he was trying to get somewhere with that...? [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] __________________ FRODO: all low and retarded Oh Mr. Frodo, do you have any more food? Here eat mine, I’m so fat. How about I carry the ring for you. It’s soooo pretty, I mean heavy! SAM: Why you little-! FRODO: You asked for it!

07-02-2002, 05:53 PM	#3
Lindolirian World's Tallest Hobbit Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Where the view is long Posts: 2,117	Take a look at this map. Arda Map The land mass labled "Hither Lands" with the Grey Mts. could be Africa. The "Straits of the World" is the Middle East. Beleriand could be a modified Europe. Just look at it a while and try to imagine our world. Its hautingly familiar. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ 'They say that the One will himself enter into Arda, and heal Men and all the Marring from the beginning to the end."

07-02-2002, 05:54 PM	#4
Calencoire Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rivendell Posts: 89	I've noticed the similarities too, with how ME resembles Europe. He may not have intended ME to seem like our world, but this is the only world we know and how can you not have some resemblences? And another thing I noticed when I looked at the map: if Middle Earth would equal Eurpoe, then Valinor would be about where North America is, if you've seen the map. ??? and with the island of Numenor, which sank, maybe that might be his version of Atlantis, since no one knows where that is.??? I don't know about any of this for sure, I'm just making guesses on the mysteries of the similatities of ME to our world. __________________ Where there is life, there is hope

07-02-2002, 05:59 PM	#5
NazgulNumber10 Wight Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Lonely Mountain Posts: 116	middle earth is in us. It lives in our heats and minds. __________________ http://squee.netdrain.com/images/hnb/hnb10.jpg

07-03-2002, 11:19 AM	#6
edmundfox Guest Posts: n/a	yes i agree, the idea of numenor = atlantis? occured to me too, especially with the details of its downfall. the americas also seem like a good candidate for the unknown land across the sea. during the medieval period (the sort of time LOTR seems to be set) the americas were an unknown land which just a few people started to travel to.

07-03-2002, 11:30 AM	#7
GreatWarg Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2002 Location: East of the Misty Mountains Posts: 339	Actually, Valinor is believed to have become beyond the reach of Mortals. SO therefore, Valinor would be more like heaven, in a sense. __________________ "What shall we do, what shall we do!" he cried. "Escaping goblins to be caught be wolves!"

07-03-2002, 11:55 AM	#8
Olorin___TLA Guest Posts: n/a	Well, Tolkien said that Arda was our world, and that LotR happened about 6,000 years ago. He also said that Hobbiton and Rivendell were on the same latitude as Oxford, so there ya go [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]. A while back, on one of the LotR newsgroups, I tried to work out how the subsequent Ages ended.began, as Tolkien said that we are in the 6th or 7th Age (and thta they are getting shorter too). Seeing as (a) he was a devout Christian, and, (b) wanted to create a mythology for England, which would mesh with Christianity, it would make sense if Noah's Flood ended one of the post-LotR Ages. This could change Middle-earth's surface enough to look like it currently does [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]. Harad is definately Africa etc. IMHO, so RHun would be Asia, Fornost (I'm not sure if that's its name, could be Lossarnach, (don't have map to hand) I'm reffering to that bit of land that arcs north) would be Scandanaveia, and so the Undiscovered Lands would be the Americas (not Valinor, as, as had been said, they are out of reach by 'conventional' travel). Tolkien also said that Numenor was his Atlantis, and was inspired by a dream he frequently had of a Great Wave drowining the world (a dream some of his children also had repeatedly, though they did not know they shared the dream for many years. Strange [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img].).

07-07-2002, 11:27 PM	#10
janekeeler Guest Posts: n/a	"...but the exiles on the shores of the sea, if they turned towards the West in the desire of their hearts, spoke of Mar-nu-Falmar that was whelmed in the waves, Akallabeth the Downfallen, Atalantë in the Eldarin tongue." I remember the first day I read that line - I just sat there, dumbfounded. Obviously Numenor was Atlantis. How was it that had never occurred to me before? And of course, if Numenor was Atlantis, well... there the repercussions start. I just sat there, letting those thoughts wash over me for quite a while.

07-08-2002, 12:42 AM	#11
Anorien Wight Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Old Navy of Rohan Posts: 138	You also have to remember that Tolkien has said that he didn't create middle earth, but he is simply retelling it's history in our tongue...I'm not saying that is true, just something to think about. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ FRODO: all low and retarded Oh Mr. Frodo, do you have any more food? Here eat mine, I’m so fat. How about I carry the ring for you. It’s soooo pretty, I mean heavy! SAM: Why you little-! FRODO: You asked for it!