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#1 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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How could Ecthelion and Glorfindel have possibly killed Balrogs. (even with eagle assistance)
1. Gandalf couldn't even do it in Moria. Although he had diminished powers he was still more powerful than an elf. 2. Balrogs are still Maia so how can they die. Like sauron they can only lose their forms so where do they go.
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Legends of Middle Earth |
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#2 |
Pile O'Bones
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Arrakis
Posts: 16
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Gandalf did defeat the Balrog, though he lost his body in process. Glorfindel in the first age also was slain, even though he defeated the Balrog. Balrogs have physical form, just like the Istari...so they can be slain. And it seems that Eru does not allow those evil maiar to return to Middle Earth again, once they lose their form. It is His will that allows Gandalf to come back. The spirits of the balrogs are either diminished so much as to be non-existent...or they are sent to the void, imprisoned with their master, Morgoth, until the end of days.
Sauron did not leave middle earth when he was slain, because his 'form' was effectively the ring. As long as it existed, his power and will was present. Once it was destroyed, and we see his great black spirit rise up to be blown wawy by the north wind...we can only imagine he has gone the way of those balrogs, either diminished or imprisoned with Morgoth. |
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#3 |
Wight
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Somewhere above earth cause people say i should come down to it
Posts: 226
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Amen Leto
One thing is that Gandalf Probably could of Killed the Balrog if he was 1. able to use his powers more. In the battle of wrath it doesn't say much of the balrogs putting up a good fight against the Maiar AND elves that never left Valinor. balrogs were equal or less in power with gandalf and Saruman. Although Saruman lost a lot of power thanks to Gandalf.
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Instead of pepper spray, you pack a glass bottle and scream "Aiya Earendil Elenion Ancalima!!!" at muggers. |
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#4 |
Haunting Spirit
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I agree w/ both Leto and Mornie. Gandalf merely lost his body, not his spirit. and also, Glorfindel. Illuvitar, it does seem, does not let the evil maiar spirits return to ME, if he, indeed, even lets them survive.
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". . . All we must decide is what to do with the time that is given us." "I pass the test, I will diminish, and go into the West, and remain Galadriel." |
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#5 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Its just the size difference that bothers me.
Elf 6 foot...Balrog 2000 foot. and the flame and the wrath and the 'arghhh'ing vs nice blond hair. not really contest wouldn't the elf get burnt
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#6 |
Wight
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Armenelos
Posts: 136
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balrogs had a physical form wreathed in "shadow,fire, and terror". How else would they have been able to weild maces and axes?
Also remember that ecthelion and glorfindel were elves of the first age and were more powerful than those of the Third Age. |
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#7 |
Wight
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Armenelos
Posts: 136
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yes the elevs would get burned.
when ecthelion and gothmog fell into the king's well a great steam arose and no water remained. |
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#8 |
Wight
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Since Gandalf was a Maia, he could take any form he wanted to, right? I wonder why he did not take a different form to fight the Balrog. Maybe it wasn't convienient, or maybe he didn't want to scare the Fellowship? Or maybe as an Istari in the Third age he wasn't allowed to change forms.
the real findorfin- Balrogs are 2000 ft tall? Where did you get that from? Very curious...because I thought i read somewhere that they are a few feet taller then men...maybe like 12 feet or something (they are man-shaped too). But I could easily be wrong. And yes, Balrogs were much more powerful than elves! They could be slain, but that was rare and only at great price (like death). Maiar, remember, are like Valar, only less in degree. Very powerful.
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http://www.cadential64.com The musicians had indeed laid bare the youngest, most innocent of our ideas of life, the indestructible yearning for the way things aren't and can never be. ~ Philip Roth, The Human Stain
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#9 |
Wight
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Armenelos
Posts: 136
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a great many were slew in the defense of Gondolin. Fingon could have taken Gothmog if another hadnt come from behind him. You overlook the power of the Elves in the first age. Look at what Fingolfin did to Morgoth. Morgoth was the MOST POWERful BEING in Ea which included the rest of the Vala. Morgoth defeated Fingolfin because Fingolfin merely tripped. If Fingolfin could take Morgoth single handedly, I am sure he could do the same with any of Morgoth's servants.
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#10 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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How about you guys actually read some Tolkien?
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#11 | |
Wight
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http://www.cadential64.com The musicians had indeed laid bare the youngest, most innocent of our ideas of life, the indestructible yearning for the way things aren't and can never be. ~ Philip Roth, The Human Stain
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#12 |
Wight
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Armenelos
Posts: 136
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how about refraining from your voluntary rudeness?
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#13 |
Wight
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Armenelos
Posts: 136
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oh, and ive been reading tolkien for nearly 10 years. I dont see why you have to be so rude. A forum is a place for discussing a topic and thats exactly what we were doing.
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#14 |
Pile O'Bones
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Arrakis
Posts: 16
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this is getting nasty [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] JessicaJade, about the Istari..."Who would go? For they must be mighy, peers of Sauron, but must forego might, and cloth themselves in flesh so as to treat on equality and win the trust of Elves and Men. But this would imperil them, dimming their wisdom and knowledge, and confusing them with fears, cares, and wearinesses coming from the flesh." -Unfinished Tales
And for you others, who don't understand how an Elf, or an old Wizard, could defeat a Balrog that looks so mighty...remember that that is the difference between 'good' and 'evil'. Evil is full of itself, flaunting its power and intimidating, creating fear and wishing to subdue others. Good is reserved, and cares not to show off...the power of harmony with others. The greater power is that which is not seen as 'power'. "The sage wears rough clothing, and holds the jewel in his heart." This is why the Istari were forbidden to use their power the same way Sauron does. A Elbereth, Gilthoniel! |
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#15 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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what's wrong is that people keep posting their stupid opinions on matters that they have no idea about. sure, that's fine in the novices room, but this is a forum for advanced discussions of middle-earth. not little kids who love elijah wood, and thus by extension, tolkien. this place used to be great. yeah, i'm a **** , but you people have ruined this place for me, so maybe you deserve it.
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#16 |
Wight
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Armenelos
Posts: 136
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Theres no need to be rude, and i dont see why you have to insult people's intelligence of the Books.
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#17 | |
Wight
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Quote:
However, I (and everyone else here in this thread for that matter) do not appreciate being falsely accused of contributing to the teeneybopperism. If you glance through this thread, you will notice that there has been no mention of any of the movie actors' names, nor is there any indication of how "hot" they are. Therefore, your accusation of us ruining the Barrowdowns by talking/drooling about movie stars and by not truly liking Tolkien is neither valid nor true. Furthermore, if you're going to make an accusation, make sure that you at least have justification! If you want to carp about the issue of "celebrity-fawning", there are better places to do so, like the Movies forum. I can understand why you'd be angry about the current condition of the 'Downs, but that doesn't give you the right to be cruel. Obviously this this has gotten a bit off topic. I hope we can get back on track. [ June 12, 2002: Message edited by: Jessica Jade ]
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http://www.cadential64.com The musicians had indeed laid bare the youngest, most innocent of our ideas of life, the indestructible yearning for the way things aren't and can never be. ~ Philip Roth, The Human Stain
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#18 | |
Eldar Spirit of Truth
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Land of the FREE, Home of the BRAVE
Posts: 794
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Not to add insult to injury but the colors really take away from the Downs atmosphere of death and decay. But that is for the Barrow Wight to decide.
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*~*Call me a relic, call me what you will. Say I'm old fashioned , say I'm over the hill. That old whine ain't got no soul. I'll stick to Old Toby and a Hobbit hole.*~* |
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#19 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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'Balrogs = 2000ft tall'
i meant it as an exaggeration to imply much bigger. Not literally. However, thanks for the hieght info. I ask again (perhaps 1st time was somewhere else) why didn't balrogs change shape like other maiar did?
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Legends of Middle Earth |
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#20 |
Night In Wight Satin
Join Date: May 2000
Posts: 4,043
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Off-topic
Moderator Note: Criticisms, espcially in THE BOOKS and THE BOOKS II, must be accompanied by supporting text. "Read the book" and "stupid opinion" are not supporting text. I expect to see no more of this type of thing, especially by our long-time members who should be quite capable of providing reasons for their opinions and presenting them in a tactful manner.
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The Barrow-Wight |
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#21 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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guess i been owned.
good to see you moderating, b-w. |
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