'Asperger's Syndrome & Tolkien's Works'

[davem]

This is an excerpt from an article in the current issue of Amon Hen:

"In brief: Asperger's Syndrome is a type of high functioning autism. Two main features of AS are that people with AS often have a special interest in which they are completely passionate to the exclusion of all else. Also, they may appear to be different or 'apart' from other people. In this respect , Bilbo & Frodo certainly fit the bill. ...

Both Bilbo & Frodo show many characteristics that are synonymous with AS. They are seen as eccentric by their own peer group. In Frodo's case, he prefers to spend time with the younger Hobbits. (Both) like solitary activities, like walking, in contrast to the very sociable Hobbit life. Frodo seems to be more serious than his Hobbit companions & his language is slightly more formal than theirs. ...Frodo is vulnerable to certain types of influences which don't really affect the other Hobbits. Early on in the book, he dreams of Gandalf's capture at Isengard & also of his journey from the Grey Havens, before he actually knows about these things. There are several conditions in which one is more prone to psychic or spiritual experiences: Asperger's is one of these....

Frodo does not seem to form attatchments in the same way as others....

While I am not seeking to diagnose Tolkien, some aspects of his work would be familiar to those with AS. The first of these is a fascination with other worlds. In LotR & The Sil, Tolkien's Middle Earth is intricately & extensively detailed, with its own complete histories & sets of Languages. There is also the attention to small detail & the tendency to get bogged down in this."

OK. I can't say whether any of this is correct, because I've not studied AS. But at the same time, both Bilbo & Frodo are 'outsiders' who find it difficult to make emotional connections with other people. As was Tolkien himself. He clearly felt emotions strongly, or he wouldn't have been so successful in communicating them to us, but he was someone who tended to keep people at a distance (apart from a few close friends), not revealing his feelings to others - Classic British 'stiff-upper lip - or something more?

Certainly, he was an Introvert, & his 'inner' life was more significant than what went on around him - which I think does come through in Bilbo & Frodo.

On a personal note, I'm much the same, & I wonder if this is something others share. Is the Legendarium something that appeals more to Introverts (with AS or not!).

[Leyrana Silumiel]

Well, this is rather strange. Not sure if I agree with it, however. While I don't know much about Asperger's Syndrome, I will say a few things.

They are seen as eccentric by their own peer group.

Bilbo is considered eccentric by other hobbits mainly because he went out on that grand adventure with thirteen dwarves and Gandalf. That's not exactly something a hobbit would typically do.

Frodo, on the other hand, was not noted to start becoming eccentric until after Bilbo left, when he inherited the Ring. Maybe the eccentricity could be attributed to that (and likely, it can be).

Frodo seems to be more serious than his Hobbit companions & his language is slightly more formal than theirs.

This is because Frodo is very well-educated, as mentioned in LOTR; he says several times that Bilbo taught him things about languages and cultures that no other hobbits would know.

Frodo is vulnerable to certain types of influences which don't really affect the other Hobbits. Early on in the book, he dreams of Gandalf's capture at Isengard & also of his journey from the Grey Havens, before he actually knows about these things. There are several conditions in which one is more prone to psychic or spiritual experiences: Asperger's is one of these....

There is one major thing that sets Frodo apart from the other hobbits: he is the Ring-bearer, and as such, he has the ability to sense the other Ring-bearers. Recall this quote from the book:

'I would ask one thing before we go,' said Frodo, 'a thing which I often meant to ask Gandalf in Rivendell. I am permitted to wear the One Ring: why cannot I see all the others and know the thoughts of those that wear them?'

'You have not tried,' she (Galadriel) said. 'Only thrice have you set the Ring upon your finger since you knew what you possessed. Do not try! It would destroy you. Did not Gandalf tell you that the rings give power according to the measure of each possessor? Before you could use that power you would need to become far stronger, and to train your will to the domination of others. Yet even so, as Ring-bearer and as one that has borne it on finger and seen that which is hidden, your sight is grown keener. You have perceived my thought more clearly than many that are accounted wise. You saw the Eye of him that holds the Seven and the Nine. And did you not see and recognize the ring upon my finger?'

Galadriel has told Frodo that, as Ring-bearer, he has the power to sense and see others who also wear Rings of Power: Gandalf is one of these.

And I have to admit that I do not recall where Frodo dreams of his journey from the Grey Havens. Could you give me a citing?

Frodo does not seem to form attatchments in the same way as others....

Of course he doesn't; unlike other hobbits, he's in the possession of something that, if fallen into the wrong hands, could completely destroy / enslave the world!

Though, now that I think about it, he DID seem to form a close relationship with Sam...

But at the same time, both Bilbo & Frodo are 'outsiders' who find it difficult to make emotional connections with other people.

As mentioned above, both Bilbo and Frodo are the only two hobbits to ever possess the Ring; this could have something to do with their eccentricity.

Certainly, he was an Introvert, & his 'inner' life was more significant than what went on around him - which I think does come through in Bilbo & Frodo.

I'm not sure about his "inner life," as you put it, but strangely enough, most writers are introverts (at least, the ones I've encountered, though you do have abberations).

On a personal note, I'm much the same, & I wonder if this is something others share. Is the Legendarium something that appeals more to Introverts (with AS or not!).

While I don't have AS, I am admittedly an introvert, and I thoroughly enjoy the entire Legendarium.

[Arathiriel]

Originally posted by Leyrana Silumiel
And I have to admit that I do not recall where Frodo dreams of his journey from the Grey Havens. Could you give me a citing?

I am not davem but I know where the quote in question can be found:

But either in his dreams or out of them, he could not tell which, Frodo heard a sweet singing running in his mind: a song that seemed to come like a pale light behind a grey rain-curtain, and growing stronger to turn the veil all to glass and silver, until at last it was rolled back, and a far green country opened before him under a swift sunrise.

Fog on the Barrow-downs
The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring

And

...Frodo smelled a sweet fraangrance on the air and he heard the sound of singing that came over the water. And then it seemed to him that asin his dream in the house of Bombadil, the grey-rain curtain turned all to silver glass and was rolled back, and he beheld white shores and beyond a far green country under a swift sunrise.

The Grey Havens
The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King

So it seems pretty certain to me Frodo did dream of his future journey to Valinor sometime before it happened...

[zb]

For those who are interested:

DSM-IV Asperger's Disorder

I'd hesitate to diagnose Frodo or Bilbo with Asperger's (regardless of the Ring-related issues which Leyrana Silumiel points out) simply because the diagnositc criteria refers to something which actually impairs social function, and if you look at Bilbo & Frodo's interactions with other hobbits as well as elves, men, etc, that impairment's not there. But I'm no psychiatrist.

[burrahobbit]

Also, they may appear to be different or 'apart' from other people.

That is everybody in the world ever.

[davem]

Frodo's dream of his journey to the Undying Lands occurs in the House of Tom Bombadil. Of course, Verlyn Flieger has put forward a different theory of Frodo's experiences of connecting with other times/places, based on the influence of Dunne's theories on time.

I'm not sure that the theory of the writer of the article are correct. I do, however feel that Bilbo & Frodo stand out from other hobbits, in their detatched lives. They are simply not as sociable. The question is to what extent the effect of the Ring on them reflects something of their author. In other words, why does Tolkien create an object - The Ring - which has that effect on them, makes them behave in that way? Do they speak for him, his perception of the world?

If we take AS, not as a 'disease' so much, but as a way of experienceing 'reality', detatchment, obsession with detail, creation of other/secondary realities, then do we find Bilbo & Frodo as reflections of Tolkien himself? Put aside for one moment the 'explanation' within the story for Bilbo & Frodo's state - posession of the Ring, & look at the characters that we have as 'heroes', they are simply not 'normal' Hobbits. There is a curious lack of emotional connection with other's on Frodo's part - both the BBC radio series & the movie have Frodo snapping & losing his temper with Sam, which are not present in the book. Neither Bilbo or Frodo marry, or have intimate relationships. Ok, The Ring affects them, but Tolkien did not have to make the Ring produce that effect. Frodo has a stronger emotional connection to the Ring, even to the Trees of Lorien, than he has to most of the people around him. How much of what he feels for Bilbo is a desire for a safe secure past, & how much is true 'love'?

I am struck by the way Frodo in particular, keeps himself apart, & what Tolkien is doing by giving us such a 'hero'. Tolkien was someone who did keep apart - though to a lesser extent, & significantly, the people who he was closest to (apart from Edith) were people who shared his temperament - Lewis, & Christopher. But he had few close connections with anyone else. He seemed quite intolerant of anyone who didn't share his values, & experienced jealousy of 'outsiders' who intervened (Charles Williams springs to mind). He strikes me as someone who would be quite hard work to be around, unless you shared his values & worldview.

[evenstar_0404]

I don't now if Tolkien have the Asperger syndrom, but I now that people with AS react very negativ on changes. They need a long time to adjust them self (after they have moved i.e.)they need a "safe" environment and they hate unexpected things in there lifes. Nothing of that had either Bilbo nor Frodo on their journeys. One more thing is the friendship between Frodo and Sam, people with AS don't make such friendships. But many people seems to have AS. Maybe it's an AS light. .

[burrahobbit]

then do we find Bilbo & Frodo as reflections of Tolkien himself?

Not any more than any character reflects its creator.

both the BBC radio series & the movie

which are not present in the book.

The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books >

or have intimate relationships.

Nope. Unless you mean sex. But that isn't what "intimate" means.

Tolkien did not have to make the Ring produce that effect.

Did not have to is not the same as did not.

But he had few close connections with anyone else. He seemed quite intolerant of anyone who didn't share his values, & experienced jealousy of 'outsiders' who intervened

Yes I know that I for one have never done that or even anything remotely similarly associated therewith. Oh crap I mean yes I have. Oh man I think I am autistic now. This sucks.

[Evisse the Blue]

zb is right, the main criterion for any disorder is the impairment of social, psychological functioning and also the distress that it causes one. That of course does not apply to any on the persons in question.

as a way of experienceing 'reality', detatchment, obsession with detail, creation of other/secondary realities,

, this sounds more like the melancholic type of personality than the Asperger syndrome.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Davem,

I don't feel that diagnosis is relevent, and I have rather strong views, I fear.

I have little or no medical background in terms of the syndrome we are discussing. But I have an innate distrust of anyone who explains the behavior of a person in terms of an imagined neurosis.

My professional background and training is as an historian. I can not tell you how many times I have seen other historians take an individual who made a singular contribution in terms of new political or religious ideas and virtually explain those ideas (or behavior) away by making reference to some supposed psychological disorder that the person may have had. What is unique and amazing about that person simply gets erased and he or she is reduced to a clinical term. That is not right.

Yes, it is possible to look at some figures in literature or in history and see that it is likely they may have suffered from a particular ailment. But, without independent medical verification, we can never be sure. You can not get the person and lay them down on a couch and apply the kinds of criteria that a professional psychiatrist would insist on.

Even when we positively know that a person had a particular disorder, or some hint of it, there is no way to be certain just how that influenced his/her behavior and thinking. I do not see Bilbo and Frodo's supposed lack of social graces as stemming from some disease, or the Ring influencing their behavior in this regard.

Bilbo was acting in "strange ways" long before he had the Ring. Just look at the description of Bilbo as a child and young man in Unfinished Tales. Gandalf describes his "bright eyes, and his love of tales." The neighbors looked at him askance because he had the audacity to speak with dwarves! He would pester the wizard to tell him tales of his Tookish uncles who'd gone off on great adventures. Gandalf was appalled when he visited Bilbo and found out that his dreams had all "dwindled down"; he was becoming more and more like his neighbors, the so-called sensible hobbits. He was becoming a conformist.

If Bilbo had continued on this road, he would indeed have become a "normal" sensible hobbit and would probably have extended his social network further. And how terribly boring and sad that would have been.....


Are Bilbo and Frodo "normal" hobbits? Absolutely not. Tolkien says they were "extraordinarily gifted and talented. " Because of that and their own choices in life, they were very different than their neighbors from day one. But what's wrong with that? Maybe it's the neighbors we should look at for falling short rather than the "gifted' hobbits who weren't afraid to follow their hearts. It especially couldn't have been easy for Bilbo living in such a closed community. In a certain sense, he broke the ground for Frodo who was then a bit freer to be himself. According to Gandalf, hobbits had been different in the past They'd even gone on adventures. But now all the dangers had receded and they had settled down to being "sensible" and expecting everyone in the community to do the same. By the end of the 3rd Age, the "sensible" hobbits looked askance at someone like Bilbo or Frodo.

Yes, Frodo was probably a little shy, and he and Bilbo tended to have friends younger than they themselves were. But they did have a warm circle of friends and functioned well in the Shire, even if other folk didn't always approve. If Frodo was such an awful misfit and loner, why is he described by the Bree Innkeeper as a perky lad with red cheeks? Would a totally introverted person get up on the tables and dance and sing?

It is true that a Ringbearer walks alone. This affected Frodo more than Bilbo since the former was far more aware of what being a Ringbearer meant. But that is an aspect of legend, not a medical syndrome. And I would not agree that Frodo's behavior or the view of the neighbors changed dramatically after he got the Ring at Bag-end. Even before then, Frodo and Bilbo would go on walks to look at Elves.

What bothers me most about these kinds of psychological analyses is that there is an unspoken assumption behind all of them. Society is set up as the norm against which we should be judged; it is the particular individual -- Frodo or Bilbo -- who are 'sick'. They have been measured against society's sacred ruler and been found wanting--- perhaps because they are too shy, hold strange opinions, or their neighbors look at them askance.

I honestly think Tolkien would have recoiled at the idea of explaining his hobbits' behavior in terms of a psychological syndrome. He had notoriously little sympathy for modern writers who specialise in such things. This is what I think Tolkien would have said. It is society that is found wanting -- not Frodo or Bilbo.

When I first read LotR, I was immediately attracted by Bilbo and Frodo. Here, in this gentle but staid and conformist hobbit community, were two individuals willing to stick their necks out and act how they thought best, ignoring nasty looks from some of their neighbors. They weren't afraid to be different in terms of personality or behavior and sometimes being different carries a price. So who was more psychologically healthy: the non-conformist adventurers or the stay-at-home conformists? To me, that question has an obvious answer.

Oh, yeah, except with close friends and family, I would probably be called an "introvert".

[Guinevere]

Very well said, Child of the 7th age! *claps hands* I agree totally with everything you wrote!!
and as for wanting to apply that psychological term to Tolkien himself - horrid idea. That's not the impression I got of him after reading all the letters and the biography... !

[Finwe]

*applauds*


I don't know why society has this penchant for labeling all the non-conformists with some sort of mental disease or syndrome. Just because I am a teenager who makes good grades, works reasonably well to please her parents, has a well-rounded resume of extracurricular clubs, and does dance and archery does not mean that I am a repressed, goody-two-shoes conformist. It is another way that society likes to judge those who are "different." And that description of me that society somehow gets is also vastly mistaken. Society and my family label me as a black sheep who shouldn't be socialized with because I drink and smoke socially and would fail a Medieval "bride-worthy" test with flying colors (in other words, I'm not exactly an innocent when it comes to matters of reproduction). I haven't done anything to warrant the title of "black sheep." I realize that I've made mistakes and I have done what is reasonably in my power to correct them. Yet society still judges me from being different than the "accepted norm."

It is very unfair to Bilbo, Frodo, and the old Professor to label them with a syndrome that they never had. It is just another way of judging them based on society's skewed standards. It just isn't right.

[Theron Bugtussle]

Originally posted by Finwe
I don't know why society has this penchant for labeling all the non-conformists with some sort of mental disease or syndrome.

It's called "label-me-so-I-am-no-longer-responsible." People look for labels when they are sure "it is not their fault". That way, they don't have to conform/change/admit wrong.

For instance, I believe that parents have a great responsibility toward the instilling of good values and behavior in their children. Recognizing of course that each child is an individual in gifts, interests, personality, etc. So I do things to raise my children within the bounds of what I consider acceptable behavior and knowing right from wrong, according to the standards I set, not necessarily what society sets.

On the other hand, I have very close friends who have taken a much more hands-off, natural parenting approach. Their child is--to put it mildly--a holy terror. And my friends were sure the variable of "parenting efforts" was not responsible for (or even related to) the outcome.

So they sought a label. A stamp of approval for the parents' self esteem. Absolution, if you will. Society and their psychiatrist and psychologist provided the label: a diagnosis of ADHD, Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder, and later Asperger's. Oh! and they also threw in an ODD, Oppositional Defiance Disorder, diagnosis.

I have four sons, so I have quite a variety. And my wife and I have agreed that there are two of our sons that, if our friends had raised, they would have turned out with these some or all of these same labels. And vice-versa, I believe with all my heart, that if we had had our friends' son to raise all those years, he would have turned out just as 'unlabeled' and disciplined (read well-behaved) as our actual four.

Anyway, once enough people in society agree that we have no more responsibility for ourselves and our behaviors, we require the reinforcement that everyone else have some label, showing why they are different--but still okay. So society goes about trying to affix a label to pretty much everyone. That's why we have in the US 25-30% of school age boys on Ritalin for ADD. And so many adults on Prozac, or some such, because they have a "chemical imbalance."

By the way, Finwe. Face it, you are

a repressed, goody-two-shoes conformist.

Just kidding.

[Gorwingel]

I would highly doubt that Tolkien or Bilbo or Frodo had any kind of syndrome, or disorder. They just all represent a type of person who is prevelent in all types of society. I think though that the way that they acted was because of their personality (talking about Frodo and Bilbo), and of course the influence of the ring, that does tend to make you a little more private and sheltered (example: Gollum). And another thing though is that we really don't know if Frodo and Bilbo were the only hobbits who were more private and less social. There could have been other ones, but we just never heard of them because they were so sheltered. I think there would have not been as much attention placed on Frodo and Bilbo if they hadn't of had all these things happen to them. They most likely would have just lived their life with very little attention paid to them.

[Lush]

Oh Finwe, you're practically Snow White. Accept it.

Nah, seriously though, I think there is a huge leap one must take from Bilbo & Frodo's characterizations all the way to Asperger's Syndrome. If these were real people, I might be willing to hear you out. But in the literary context, the logic doesn't stick.

Theron has got it right when he says that the emergence of colourful diagnoses can be traced back to people not being willing to raise their own darn kids. They want doctors, teachers, policemen, politicians, radio and TV to do it for them.

A number of historians and literary critics, as Sharon already touched upon, will also use some sort of diagnosis in order to "analyze" a person's work in the context of their life. I once read a vulgar biography of Chekhov that compared his sex life to that of a cheetah and said it was a result of a "disorder". I'm not one to cringe at such things normally, but the author's style betrayed this claim to be mostly sensationalism. "OOOOOH look how dirty one of the greatest writers in the world turned out to be! OOOOOH! How shocking! How provocative!" Whatever. The greater majority of writers are "dirty," and unless you have something original or captivating to say on the subject, you end up sounding no better than a tabloid journalist, and possibly even worse, considering the fact that those people at least aren't pretending to be anybody else.

The point I'm trying to make that we, as a society, are beginning to sound positively hypochondriac when we attempt to label everything a disorder or a disease or a malady. Furthermore, there are people out there who really are seriously afflicted, and they get lost in the jumble of other voices, each one demanding special treatment because of this or that. Sad.

Personally, I don't think that some sort of Asperger-like affliction is what unites Tolkien fans. Maybe (whether only on the inside or full-out) we're just dorks.

[Theron Bugtussle]

My comments on the article excerpt:

"In brief: Asperger's Syndrome is a type of high functioning autism. Two main features of AS are that people with AS often have a special interest in which they are completely passionate to the exclusion of all else."

Who doesn't? Personally, I am passionate about destroying psycho-babblers.

"Also, they may appear to be different or 'apart' from other people. In this respect , Bilbo & Frodo certainly fit the bill. ..."

Who is not different? I certainly fit the bill. I am pretty sure you are different. Not to mention that bum in the gutter--talk about "apart from other people."

"Both Bilbo & Frodo show many characteristics that are synonymous with AS. They are seen as eccentric by their own peer group."

So are they insiders or outsiders? In other words, if they are seen as eccentric, are they actually part of "their own peer group?" Or are they peerless?

So take a group of typical 12-15 year old school age children. The "popular" ones look at the "smart" ones as geeks, suckups, or eccentric. Everyone labels the "stupid" ones--unless the stupid one is "popular." The unpopular kids think that the popular kids' reliance on the social status symbols (such as Abercrombie & Fitch clothing) is eccentric. The "jocks" despise the ones in music or drama. The goths (I call them vampires) are labeled as eccentric by...me.

I guess that pretty much covers everyone in that peer group--they are all seen as eccentric.

"In Frodo's case, he prefers to spend time with the younger Hobbits."

Does he have a tendency toward teaching what he knows? Mentoring? Is he aware that the young are more open to different modes of thought, less set in their ways? So perhaps he may find or develop kindred spirits with his "eccentricity?" Perhaps if he can 'convert' enough of the young ones to his ways, they can become "the majority" or "the powerful" and label the "others" as AS eccentrics!

On the other hand, maybe he just doesn't care for the conversation at the Green Dragon between Ted Sandyman the the Gaffer Gamgee.

"(Both) like solitary activities, like walking, in contrast to the very sociable Hobbit life."

Maybe he is more than average on the physical movement/athleticism scale. Maybe he is more introverted than the typical hobbit. He is definitely a "freak."

"Frodo seems to be more serious than his Hobbit companions"

Would that be because of his:
(a) maturity?
(b) intelligence?
(c) different education?
(d) philosophical inclinations?
(e) exposure to stories and truths of the outside world, including contact with elves and dwarves?
(f) some or all the above?

"& his language is slightly more formal than theirs."

See questions immediately above. Just how slightly is the threshold for the AS diagnosis, we wonders...yess, we wonders?

"...Frodo is vulnerable to certain types of influences which don't really affect the other Hobbits."

When I was young, I was
(a) incredibly afraid of spiders, and
(b) super-incredibly afraid of heights.
However, I believe myself to be
(c) completely immune to hypnotization.

Hmm, "vulnerability to influences"? And they call psych a "soft science"?

Only Arnold Schwartzenegger is such a rock that he is invulnerable to influences. And he was just elected Governor of California. No pandering there, eh?

I suppose Sam Gamgee is AS, too, then, because he dearly loves to hear about elves, and wants to see elves and be with elves, and hear elves sing and dance and talk. And he can barely decide to leave his dead master at Cirith Ungol, because of his great love and devotion to Frodo. Vulnerable schmuck.

"Early on in the book, he dreams of Gandalf's capture at Isengard & also of his journey from the Grey Havens, before he actually knows about these things. There are several conditions in which one is more prone to psychic or spiritual experiences: Asperger's is one of these...."

Well, then. There it is. It must be Asperger's.

As for me personally, "several conditions in which one is more prone to psychic or spiritual experiences" includes:
(a) when I am falling asleep
(b) when I am sleeping
(c) when I am waking up
(d) when I ate pizza, or perhaps "a bit of bad beef"
(e) when I have too much to alcohol to drink
(f) when I watch movies about "psychic or spiritual experiences"
(g) when I read too much psycho-babble, or
(h) when I (d), (e), and (f/g), and start to (a).

Come to think of it, I am incredibly spiritual.

"Frodo does not seem to form attatchments in the same way as others...."

He is more of a Velcro kinda guy. Other hobbits are well known for their reliance on Scotch tape. Do "rubber-cementers" and "Super-gluers" also have Asperger's?

"While I am not seeking to diagnose Tolkien..."

Aww, go ahead, you know you want to!

"...some aspects of his work would be familiar to those with AS."

A lot of aspects of his work are familiar to me, ergo I have AS.

"The first of these is a fascination with other worlds."

So is this applicable to me, the reader of Tolkien's works, which I find fascinating? And pretty much everyone on this forum? And everyone who reads either Science Fiction or Fantasy? And pretty much everyone who thinks TV reflects real life? Everyone who watches movies for entertainment or escape? Who thinks that politics is fascinating?

"In LotR & The Sil, Tolkien's Middle Earth is intricately & extensively detailed, with its own complete histories & sets of Languages. There is also the attention to small detail & the tendency to get bogged down in this."

Can you imagine how little notice a work like this would have received without being "intricately & extensively detailed?"

Synopsis: Some little people set off on a journey-thing and encounter some people in some strange places, and some other guy, one of the big people, goes with them and they get chased for a while and one of them gets hurt. It was pretty scary. Then they go see some other people that are different. And the discuss a lot of things, then they decide some of these same people and some other people--including some who were really different!--should go on another journey-thing...and other stuff happened....

This reminds me of my oldest son when he was in 7th grade learning Algebra. Well, the problem was, he wasn't learning it. I said, you have anywhere from 80% to 100% on your homework grade. But your tests are 50-60%. Why is that?

Because the teacher doesn't test for the same things as she teaches.

What does she teach?

Algebra.

What does she test for?

Details.

[Finwe]

Bravo Theron!

Lush, being a Noldo automatically makes me snow white. *drum roll* Yes, I know, bad, obscure Tolkien joke.

After re-reading the aforementioned article, I've come to the conclusion that the author is just another author who wants to connect his/her writing somehow to Tolkien, and thus get his/her 10 minutes of fame. Asperger's Syndrome sounds too much like all the other "conspiracy syndromes" (if we can have conspiracy theories, surely we can have conspiracy syndromes) that I've been reading about lately.

[davem]

Like the rest of you, I wouldn't diagnose Bilbo, Frodo (or Tolkien himself) with AS, or any other syndrome - as I said, I haven't studied AS. I read a lot of Jung when I was much younger , but hardly remember anything but the basics.

As to the article itself, I wasn't convinced by the theory. but I was struck by the way Tolkien & two of his major characters are such outsiders, so atypical, & Tolkien seems to imply that this is the major reason they are chosen for their tasks. He states somewhere, if I remember rightly, that neither married because they had some sense of having a task to complete (sorry, I may have dreamt that!).

One reason I started this thread was that I wanted to get reactions to the article, without having to wait two months for the next issue of Amon Hen. All the above said, though, Frodo & Bilbo do not form strong, intimate relationships. They do not, & have no apparent desire to, marry, which is totally abnormal in Hobbit society. They are 'outsiders', in that while they love the land of the Shire, they have increasingly little love for the society. Saruman tells Frodo he has 'grown', but he has actually outgrown his 'hobbit' nature. What is Tolkien telling us about his own attitude to the kind of small minded parochailism of the Shire world? It is to be outgrown. But the world Frodo 'grows' into is the world of the Elves, a super-natural world. Niggle's Parish is 'the best introduction to the Mountains'.

Tolkien's focus, all along, is to get the central character out of their 'front door' & into the 'Road' - however much Bilbo may warn of the dangers of such a course! But the Road leads away from the everyday world, & can never lead you back to it - 'There is no real going back'. So, Tolkien is trying to do as Gandalf did with Bilbo, Push him out of his door, & make him grow up, but he will grow too big for his old life & have to leave it. Is this down to Tolkien's own sense of 'detatchment' from the world around him, his feelings of isolation & loss. Being 'orphaned' from his parents, & then from the old world ('Kortirion among the Trees') by WW1 & industrialisation, he is isolated, or isolates himself from the world, & steps into the Lost Road, & is swept off. But Tolkien's sympathies seem exclusively to lie with others who are swept, willingly or no, onto that road. Like Bilbo & Frodo, he is drawn to those few who are also walking that Road, or attempting to walk it - if they can find it.

As others have said, this is not AS, or any other syndrome, so I feel the writer of the article has missed the point. The problem with psychology is that it denies the existence of such a 'Lost Road' - & it denies even more vehemently the existence of the place that Lost Road is said to lead to. Anything not measurable or provable by scientific instruments or psychological tests is a fantasy & belief in it is due to a 'syndrome'. A psychologist will inevitably resort to a label, call it a syndrome, otherwise they wouldn't be a psychologist, but a philosopher, or a theologian. I see from the responses to this thread that I am among philosophers & 'theologians', not psychologists.

[Evisse the Blue]

Anything not measurable or provable by scientific instruments or psychological tests is a fantasy & belief in it is due to a 'syndrome'.

Only a narrow-minded psychologist would do this. More likely, one would recognize such phenomenona as not pertaining to the field of psychological research, but to the aforementioned theological / philosophical / literary field. So applying psychological terms, like the Asperger syndrome to Tolkien characters appears laugh-out-loud ridiculous to me.

[Finwe]

Science and religion have been separated for so long that people find it hard to believe that they are related. For example, miracles do happen. It has been proven that in moments of great pain, stress, or emotion, the neural connections in your brain start firing away, and sometimes you can hit upon solutions to problems or remember obscure little facts. You can consider that a miracle. I don't see why it has to be sharply pushed into the realm of fantasy and/or religion.

Psychologists often do not give theology/philosophy the credit that it deserves. The two are much more related than we think.

[burrahobbit]

the neural connections in your brain start firing away

That isn't what a miracle is.

[Theron Bugtussle]

burrahobbit, what is a miracle?

[burrahobbit]

Whatever it is that a miracle is, what it isn't is common brain activity.

[Theron Bugtussle]

davem, I mostly had trouble (disagreement) with the article. Now that you posted more of your thought, I wanted to respond.

...both Bilbo & Frodo...find it difficult to make emotional connections with other people. [and] Frodo & Bilbo do not form strong, intimate relationships.

I disagree. What is your evidence? Perhaps related to one of the quotes, you follow it with this:

They do not, & have no apparent desire to, marry, which is totally abnormal in Hobbit society.

Okay, this is a point I would like to see discussed.

However, Bilbo seems very strongly attached to Frodo, adopting him as his heir over the traditions and express desire of his near relatives. Frodo is intimately attached to Bilbo as well, and it is expressed quite emotionally throughout LotR. The relationship of deep friendship and mutual commitment between Frodo and Samwise is one of the best in literature, in my opinion.

You even said yourself:

Tolkien himself...clearly felt emotions strongly, or he wouldn't have been so successful in communicating them to us....

And what better place to display his gift at communicating these emotions than between Bilbo and Frodo, and Frodo and Sam?

I think Frodo forms strong bonds with Merry and Pippin, too, though in a different way. More like the older brother. But I think of the outpouring of gratitude when Frodo accepts the offer of help from M&P when the "conspiracy is unmasked" the last night they spend in the Shire. How much more bonding do you need?

[zb]

...both Bilbo & Frodo...find it difficult to make emotional connections with other people

Not so, as Theron Bugtussle pointed out. To continue the psychology theme, Bilbo and Frodo are introverts*: they make a few, very deep relationships, rather than many, shallow ones.

(please don't take this to mean that I think extroverts are shallow, or always have shallow relationships - I know that into/extro debates and misunderstandings can flare up, and no-one wants that.)

Frodo and Bilbo being introverted makes sense, since JRRT was an introvert. In fact, are any of his main characters particularly extroverted?

*I'm using the term in the Myers-Briggs sense

[Evisse the Blue]

Finwe, once you give an explanation to a miracle using scientific terminology it ceases to be a miracle, if you accept that point of view. burrahobbit is right in that respect (as in others, no less ).

zb, I'd call Aragorn an extrovert. Consider his ability to make friends of all kinds and his leadership qualities. But I agree that Frodo and Bilbo are typical introverts. Moreover, so is Niggle, and so is Smith of Wotton Major. I think one can really see a pattern here.

[Finwe]

Perhaps I should rephrase what I meant.


I'm using the word "miracle" in a very general sense. I meant it to include any sort of semi-divine/supernatural "revelation," that some people ascribe to being a sort of miracle.

And why does a miracle cease to be a miracle when it is explained in "scientific terminology"? Why do we have to rigidly separate religion and science?

[burrahobbit]

Because. Specifically, a miracle is exactly what science not. Religion and science may overlap, but miracles and science do not. A miracle involves the abjuration of science.

[galadriel'smaiden]

AS is a rather big deak=l. However, introversion may have nothing to do w/ Tolkein and AS. As it is a form of mild autism, people may become distant and violent. Frod's correlating symptoms are ring related....

[Lyta_Underhill]

Because. Specifically, a miracle is exactly what science not. Religion and science may overlap, but miracles and science do not. A miracle involves the abjuration of science.

I suppose this posits a single fixed definition of what a miracle actually is. I thought theologians had been duking it out over this one for centuries, not necessarily with respect to science’s relationship with miracles but the actual definition of miracles themselves. If they cannot agree on what a miracle is, how can you say definitively that science and miracles are mutually exclusive? I understand that a miracle ceases to be understood as such once it is fully explained, but I don’t think there is any danger of science figuring it all out anytime soon!

The real beef I have with the application of any “syndrome” to a situation is the temptation to use the narrow syndromic definition to excuse weakness of character or lack of will. It becomes an excuse to lie back and give over your initiative and free will to the vagaries of this scientific ‘pillow.’ This, in my opinion, does not invalidate the scientific theory involved, but rather causes the understanding of its applicability and scope to be distorted with respect to the rest of “reality.” If one narrows one’s scope to the tunnel of a syndrome, then one runs the risk of being defined by it to the exclusion of all else. And this is the danger of applying such a label to any person, be he real or fictional. I simply see it as reductionist. Certainly one can try to draw parallels, but, just as those who hold that Tolkien’s works are an allegory of World War One or World War Two are limiting their understanding of the entire scope of the work, so those who label Bilbo and Frodo as “Asperger’s afflicted” limit their understanding of these characters' beauty and complexity.
By the way, I have been greatly enjoying this thread and have been following it since the beginning. For now, I take my leave.

Cheers!
Lyta

[davem]

Can I just apologise to everyone for not continuing posting on this thread. A wierd thing happened, in that i got this overwhelming idea for a story about Orophin, Haldir's brother, which I felt I just had to get down. It kind of swept me away, & just came pouring out once I started. I would have submitted it here in the fiction section, but it does contain some scenes of graphic (though not gratuitous) violence, which it would be impossible to tone down, a) because that would tend to glamourise it, where in the story it is stark & ugly, & b) because it serves as a counterpoint to some very abstruse musings on Orophin's part about the nature of Elvish existence & the ending of the Elvish world. Suffice it to say he ends up (or does he?) communing with Illuvatar at Cuivienen. Having read the submission rules for fiction, I don't think it would be considered publishable on the Downs, sadly. And I stand by my Artistic integrity & will not be censored!

Anyway, that's my excuse for not posting.

Oh, & I didn't say Bilbo & Frodo were incapable of forming relationships, I said they found it difficult.