Bad casting - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Lady Snickerdoodle · 12-20-2003, 04:47 PM

Don't get me wrong, I love the movies, but I just think that they could have picked better actors for some parts. Like (this is a little late) Elrond looks so evil, and even acts evil like in ROTK he tries to change what he knows is Arwen's destiny, in spite of also knowing what she would choose. Also in ROTK, Denethor is nowhere near as kind and noble as he is in the books. In the movies, he is coarse and rude, and pessimistic all the way through. He is supposed to inspire Pippen to swear his allegiance, not make him do it just to "pay his debt" to Boromir!

Lord of Angmar · 12-20-2003, 05:10 PM

I agree that Denethor was portrayed as far less noble than he was in the books, but I think this was a product of the script, not the casting. I thought that John Noble played him brilliantly with the part provided to him, and I think he would have done an equally good job had his character been given a bit more nobility and honor (i.e. not getting repeatedly jabbed with Gandalf's staff).

Arwen_Evenstar · 12-20-2003, 05:27 PM

Hello! Well, i sort of agree with elrond. Dont get me wrong,Hugo weaving did a great job as Elrond, but elves are supposed to be fair, and light and airy, and i just think that he didn't have quite the right image. With denethor, you can't blame story changes on the actor: he's just saying what the writers tell him. But in the book i did get the feeling that Denethor was a bit hopeless. I also thought he talked to Pippin in a very condescending manner, like he never really had much interest in him. But in general I think the casting was pretty good. There was the odd mistake...like with the original Aragorn. But that worked out alright in the end, cause they got Viggo instead. Have a nice day.

The Silver-shod Muse · 12-20-2003, 05:35 PM

I didn't like some of their casting choices, but the excellence of the others more than made up for it. Faramir's acting was great, as was Pippin's and Gandalf's. The only thing I didn't like about Denethor was that horribly overdramatic scene in which he throws himself from the citadel. How ridiculous. It utterly stripped him of any nobility he had had.

Iris Alantiel · 12-20-2003, 08:46 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Elrond looks so evil, and even acts evil like in ROTK he tries to change what he knows is Arwen's destiny, in spite of also knowing what she would choose. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I think you bring up a good point - it would have been nice to have a sympathetic and caring-seeming Elrond who would have played that whole storyline in a softer, more "My-heart-breaks-for-my-daughter-and-I-want-to-lovingly-save-her" kind of way. As it was, he came across as hard-hearted, angry, and kind of manipulative (that whole "Do I not also have your love?" thing was pure emotional blackmail). All throughout, I thought he came across as much more harsh and angry than I imagined him - like the whole "she stays for you" episode in TTT where he yells at Aragorn. He has a permanent scowl on his face and all his lines sound as if they ought to end with "Mr. Anderson".As for the Denethor thing, there's no hope for it. I don't think any actor could have played the script all that much differently from how John Noble played it. But that was not a huge problem for me because I was never a big fan of Denethor in the books; to me he always came across as kind of a jerk anyway. I always found him too angry and too willing to give in to despair.

12-20-2003, 09:25 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Well, i sort of agree with elrond. Dont get me wrong,Hugo weaving did a great job as Elrond, but elves are supposed to be fair, and light and airy, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Where did you get that idea?Tolkien describes a number of the elves as having dark hair and specifically says Elrond's hair was dark as the shadows of twilight and his eyes were grey.

doug*platypus · 12-21-2003, 06:10 PM

I think that was a polite way of saying "he's too ugly for an elf!". I originally thought there were a couple of poor casting decisions, notably Elrond, but the final movie did a lot to fix that. Hugo performed very well, although I still don't think he had the right look, and his eyebrows were very distracting! David Bowie wasn't cast because he was too recognisable, but I think the filmmakers underestimated the Smith element. We all know and loathe Hugo Weaving as Agent Smith from The Matrix, and there's just no changing that. Bad casting.Personally I think that David Wenham did an average job at best, but I honestly can't blame him. I would have been extremely frustrated at the weak character of Faramir provided by the script-writers. Barnard Hill turned out to be a truly awful Théoden, as well. Not enough has been said about the demise of one of my favourite characters from the book. The speech before the Pelennor Fields could not have been done better, but I really didn't like the arrogant, crass and mean Théoden that Hill gave us.Another ugly elf was Ereinion Gil-Galad. That guy was the single biggest casting blunder in the trilogy, although it really only matters to those of us too far immersed in the books. Isildur and Elendil had little nobility as well, and Círdan just looked too ancient.

Gorwingel · 12-22-2003, 03:03 AM

I didn't think Bernard Hill's Theoden was terrible, but it could have been better. I most defintely didn't like the way he was during Helm's Deep, but I did like his Speech before they go into battle. I have only seen him in one other film and that is Titanic (which I watched tonight, it was on TV), so maybe he is just bitter because in every major film he is in he has to die?Yes, I still (even though I think he did fine) don't know why they cast Hugo Weaving as Elrond. He just always looked stressed out and he needs to find himself a new eyebrow plucker. But then also right now I can't think of another person they could have cast, so I guess it ended up okay.

Jjudvven · 12-22-2003, 11:34 AM

I didn't think Hugo was the best choice for Elrond. Thankfully, I saw the FotR before I saw the Matrix, so I didn't have the Agent Smith stuck in my head the whole time. For the TT and RotK, it was a different story.

Arcuwen · 12-22-2003, 08:44 PM

I personally liked Denethor in ROTK, the way he acted in the movie was how I had pictured him in the book. You have to remember he just lost his favorite son, a wizard comes out of nowhere and is telling him how to run Minas Tirith, and he lives right next to the source of all evil. I would be bitter and not in my right mind if I was him. At that moment in time his is meant to be a bitter and cold man, fearing the loss of another son, destruction of his city, or being overthrown by some ranger who claims to be Isildur's heir. As for John Noble, I think he did an excellent job as Denethor, he was just the way I pictured him when I read ROTK. But I do have to agree about the running off a cliff thing. He was supposed to be overcome with sadness and anger, not stupidity.As far as Elrond is concerned, I was not unhappy with Hugo Weaving's performance. My first impression of Elrond was that he was stern yet fair, with was how he was portrayed in the movies. Although Hugo isn't exactly "elvish" in appearance, he did a good job in making Elrond seem noble. I have to admit the eyebrows were a little distracting, but it's a small matter in the large scope of things really. But I never saw any of the Matrix movies, so if I had seen them they possibly would have altered my opinion of Hugo as Elrond.

Sapphire_Flame · 12-23-2003, 02:57 PM

You do all remember that Elrond is Half-elven, right? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Thankfully, I saw the FotR before I saw the Matrix, so I didn't have the Agent Smith stuck in my head the whole time.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yeah, I saw FotR first (actually, I haven't even seen Matrix all the way through yet...) so when I did see some of the Matrix I was thinking, "Hey, Elrond!" Now I just call him Agent Elrond, no matter which film I'm talking about, and hope people don't get confused.I didn't really have a problem with the casting of Denethor, just the writing involving the character. John Noble did a great job, but PJ et al could definitely done a better job in writing the part. Considering what he had to work with, Noble did an incredible job.Abedithon le,~*~Aranel~*~

The Only Real Estel · 12-23-2003, 03:13 PM

Elrond doesn't bother me so much because he was the actor that fit the movie-Elrond. Not the book-Elrond exactly, but the movie-Elrond. I dont' especially mind Theoden's portrayl in TTT, either (with the exception of him nearly killing Wormtounge). I think that Denethor wasn't done nearly has well as we could've been, &, although I'm not sure that this quite counts in some ways , I really didn't like the 'orc commander' we had thrown at us. He barely looked like an orc at all, from the side he looked ridiculous, & he had the sterotypical bad guy voice.

Jjudvven · 12-23-2003, 03:25 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I really didn't like the 'orc commander' we had thrown at us. He barely looked like an orc at all, from the side he looked ridiculous, & he had the sterotypical bad guy voice.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>That was exactly what I thought. I didn't think there was any reason to have a captain, other than the Witch King, in there at all. I would have like to see, if anything, an orc captain like we had in the TT. All evil, all the time. The captain in RotK looked like a goblin man or something. Could have been done better.

The Only Real Estel · 12-23-2003, 04:55 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I didn't think there was any reason to have a captain<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Having a captain doesn't really make a lot of a difference to me, but for goodness sake, have a little imagination (& don't let it run away with you) when you're creating him & giving him a voice.

Lady Snickerdoodle · 12-23-2003, 07:45 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Hugo performed very well, although I still don't think he had the right look, and his eyebrows were very distracting! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> LOL! so true. I didn't really have a problem with Theoden either, I mean, compare him to his Gondor counterpart and anyone would be great. Sorry that was a little mean. *on a mean streak this week* Considering other characters, my dad thought that Liv Tyler was a horrible Arwen. I kind of lashed out, I thought she was great...

12-20-2003, 04:47 PM	#1
Lady Snickerdoodle Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: in the cookie jar Posts: 256	Bad casting Don't get me wrong, I love the movies, but I just think that they could have picked better actors for some parts. Like (this is a little late) Elrond looks so evil, and even acts evil like in ROTK he tries to change what he knows is Arwen's destiny, in spite of also knowing what she would choose. Also in ROTK, Denethor is nowhere near as kind and noble as he is in the books. In the movies, he is coarse and rude, and pessimistic all the way through. He is supposed to inspire Pippen to swear his allegiance, not make him do it just to "pay his debt" to Boromir! __________________ "Let me handle this, I'm British." ~hitchhikers guide

12-20-2003, 05:10 PM	#2
Lord of Angmar Tyrannus Incorporalis Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: the North Posts: 833	I agree that Denethor was portrayed as far less noble than he was in the books, but I think this was a product of the script, not the casting. I thought that John Noble played him brilliantly with the part provided to him, and I think he would have done an equally good job had his character been given a bit more nobility and honor (i.e. not getting repeatedly jabbed with Gandalf's staff). __________________ ...where the instrument of intelligence is added to brute power and evil will, mankind is powerless in its own defence.

12-20-2003, 05:27 PM	#3
Arwen_Evenstar Wight Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Rivendell Posts: 206	Hello!<BR>Well, i sort of agree with elrond. Dont get me wrong,Hugo weaving did a great job as Elrond, but elves are supposed to be fair, and light and airy, and i just think that he didn't have quite the right image. <BR>With denethor, you can't blame story changes on the actor: he's just saying what the writers tell him. But in the book i did get the feeling that Denethor was a bit hopeless. I also thought he talked to Pippin in a very condescending manner, like he never really had much interest in him. <P>But in general I think the casting was pretty good. There was the odd mistake...like with the original Aragorn. But that worked out alright in the end, cause they got Viggo instead. <P>Have a nice day.<BR> __________________ 'I am Agarwaen, Son of Úmarth...'-Túrin Turambar. Arwen_Evenstar

12-20-2003, 05:35 PM	#4
The Silver-shod Muse Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: The shoulder of a poet, TX Posts: 388	I didn't like some of their casting choices, but the excellence of the others more than made up for it. Faramir's acting was great, as was Pippin's and Gandalf's. The only thing I didn't like about Denethor was that horribly overdramatic scene in which he throws himself from the citadel. How ridiculous. It utterly stripped him of any nobility he had had. __________________ "'You," he said, "tell her all. What good came to you? Do you rejoice that Maleldil became a man? Tell her of your joys, and of what profit you had when you made Maleldil and death acquainted.'" -Perelandra, by C.S. Lewis

12-20-2003, 08:46 PM	#5
Iris Alantiel Haunting Spirit Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Valinor Posts: 97	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Elrond looks so evil, and even acts evil like in ROTK he tries to change what he knows is Arwen's destiny, in spite of also knowing what she would choose. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think you bring up a good point - it would have been nice to have a sympathetic and caring-seeming Elrond who would have played that whole storyline in a softer, more "My-heart-breaks-for-my-daughter-and-I-want-to-lovingly-save-her" kind of way. As it was, he came across as hard-hearted, angry, and kind of manipulative (that whole "Do I not also have your love?" thing was pure emotional blackmail). All throughout, I thought he came across as much more harsh and angry than I imagined him - like the whole "she stays for you" episode in TTT where he yells at Aragorn. He has a permanent scowl on his face and all his lines sound as if they ought to end with "Mr. Anderson".<P>As for the Denethor thing, there's no hope for it. I don't think any actor could have played the script all that much differently from how John Noble played it. But that was not a huge problem for me because I was never a big fan of Denethor in the books; to me he always came across as kind of a jerk anyway. I always found him too angry and too willing to give in to despair. __________________ Above all shadows rides the Sun and Stars forever dwell: I will not say the Day is done, nor bid the Stars farewell. -- Samwise Gamgee

12-20-2003, 09:25 PM	#6
faenaduial Guest Posts: n/a	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Well, i sort of agree with elrond. Dont get me wrong,Hugo weaving did a great job as Elrond, but elves are supposed to be fair, and light and airy, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Where did you get that idea?<P>Tolkien describes a number of the elves as having dark hair and specifically says Elrond's hair was dark as the shadows of twilight and his eyes were grey.

12-21-2003, 06:10 PM	#7
doug*platypus Delver in the Deep Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Aotearoa Posts: 960	I think that was a polite way of saying "he's too ugly for an elf!". <P>I originally thought there were a couple of poor casting decisions, notably Elrond, but the final movie did a lot to fix that. Hugo performed very well, although I still don't think he had the right look, and his eyebrows were <B>very</B> distracting! David Bowie wasn't cast because he was too recognisable, but I think the filmmakers underestimated the Smith element. We all know and loathe Hugo Weaving as Agent Smith from The Matrix, and there's just no changing that. Bad casting.<P>Personally I think that David Wenham did an average job at best, but I honestly can't blame him. I would have been extremely frustrated at the weak character of Faramir provided by the script-writers. Barnard Hill turned out to be a truly awful Théoden, as well. Not enough has been said about the demise of one of my favourite characters from the book. The speech before the Pelennor Fields could not have been done better, but I really didn't like the arrogant, crass and mean Théoden that Hill gave us.<P>Another ugly elf was Ereinion Gil-Galad. That guy was the single biggest casting blunder in the trilogy, although it really only matters to those of us too far immersed in the books. Isildur and Elendil had little nobility as well, and Círdan just looked too ancient. __________________ But Gwindor answered: 'The doom lies in yourself, not in your name'.

12-22-2003, 03:03 AM	#8
Gorwingel Beholder of the Mists Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Somewhere in the Northwest... for now Posts: 1,419	I didn't think Bernard Hill's Theoden was terrible, but it could have been better. I most defintely didn't like the way he was during Helm's Deep, but I did like his Speech before they go into battle. I have only seen him in one other film and that is Titanic (which I watched tonight, it was on TV), so maybe he is just bitter because in every major film he is in he has to die?<P>Yes, I still (even though I think he did fine) don't know why they cast Hugo Weaving as Elrond. He just always looked stressed out and he needs to find himself a new eyebrow plucker. But then also right now I can't think of another person they could have cast, so I guess it ended up okay. __________________ Wanted - Wonderfully witty quote that consists of pure brilliance

12-22-2003, 11:34 AM	#9
Jjudvven Wight Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: The Land to the West Posts: 154	I didn't think Hugo was the best choice for Elrond. Thankfully, I saw the FotR before I saw the Matrix, so I didn't have the Agent Smith stuck in my head the whole time. For the TT and RotK, it was a different story. __________________ "I don't know all of you as well as I should like, and I like less than half of you, half as well as you deserve."

12-22-2003, 08:44 PM	#10
Arcuwen Pile O'Bones Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: In your pocket Posts: 23	I personally liked Denethor in ROTK, the way he acted in the movie was how I had pictured him in the book. You have to remember he just lost his favorite son, a wizard comes out of nowhere and is telling him how to run Minas Tirith, and he lives right next to the source of all evil. I would be bitter and not in my right mind if I was him. At that moment in time his is meant to be a bitter and cold man, fearing the loss of another son, destruction of his city, or being overthrown by some ranger who claims to be Isildur's heir. As for John Noble, I think he did an excellent job as Denethor, he was just the way I pictured him when I read ROTK. But I do have to agree about the running off a cliff thing. He was supposed to be overcome with sadness and anger, not stupidity.<P>As far as Elrond is concerned, I was not unhappy with Hugo Weaving's performance. My first impression of Elrond was that he was stern yet fair, with was how he was portrayed in the movies. Although Hugo isn't exactly "elvish" in appearance, he did a good job in making Elrond seem noble. I have to admit the eyebrows were a little distracting, but it's a small matter in the large scope of things really. But I never saw any of the Matrix movies, so if I had seen them they possibly would have altered my opinion of Hugo as Elrond. __________________ . . : Green-Eyed Monster : . . Melamin... Cormamin niuve tenna' ta elea lle au'

12-23-2003, 02:57 PM	#11
Sapphire_Flame Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: The World That Never Was Posts: 1,232	You do all remember that Elrond is <I>Half</I>-elven, right? <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Thankfully, I saw the FotR before I saw the Matrix, so I didn't have the Agent Smith stuck in my head the whole time.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Yeah, I saw FotR first (actually, I haven't even seen Matrix all the way through yet...) so when I did see some of the Matrix I was thinking, "Hey, Elrond!" Now I just call him Agent Elrond, no matter which film I'm talking about, and hope people don't get confused.<P>I didn't really have a problem with the casting of Denethor, just the writing involving the character. John Noble did a great job, but PJ et al could definitely done a better job in writing the part. Considering what he had to work with, Noble did an incredible job.<P>Abedithon le,<P>~~Aranel~~ __________________ The Hitchhiking Ghost

12-23-2003, 03:13 PM	#12
The Only Real Estel Raffish Rapscallion Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Far from the 'Downs, it seems :-( Posts: 2,835	Elrond doesn't bother me so much because he was the actor that fit the <I>movie</I>-Elrond. Not the book-Elrond exactly, but the movie-Elrond. I dont' especially mind Theoden's portrayl in TTT, either (with the exception of him nearly killing Wormtounge). I think that Denethor wasn't done nearly has well as we could've been, &, although I'm not sure that this quite counts in some ways , I really didn't like the 'orc commander' we had thrown at us. He barely looked like an orc at all, from the side he looked ridiculous, & he had the sterotypical bad guy voice.

12-23-2003, 03:25 PM	#13
Jjudvven Wight Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: The Land to the West Posts: 154	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I really didn't like the 'orc commander' we had thrown at us. He barely looked like an orc at all, from the side he looked ridiculous, & he had the sterotypical bad guy voice.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That was exactly what I thought. I didn't think there was any reason to have a captain, other than the Witch King, in there at all. I would have like to see, if anything, an orc captain like we had in the TT. All evil, all the time. The captain in RotK looked like a goblin man or something. Could have been done better. __________________ "I don't know all of you as well as I should like, and I like less than half of you, half as well as you deserve."

12-23-2003, 04:55 PM	#14
The Only Real Estel Raffish Rapscallion Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Far from the 'Downs, it seems :-( Posts: 2,835	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I didn't think there was any reason to have a captain<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> Having a captain doesn't really make a lot of a difference to me, but for goodness sake, have a little imagination (& don't let it run away with you) when you're creating him & giving him a voice.

12-23-2003, 07:45 PM	#15
Lady Snickerdoodle Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: in the cookie jar Posts: 256	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Hugo performed very well, although I still don't think he had the right look, and his eyebrows were very distracting! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>LOL! so true. I didn't really have a problem with Theoden either, I mean, compare him to his Gondor counterpart and anyone would be great. Sorry that was a little mean. on a mean streak this week <BR>Considering other characters, my dad thought that Liv Tyler was a horrible Arwen. I kind of lashed out, I thought she was great... __________________ "Let me handle this, I'm British." ~hitchhikers guide