Another Ringbearer????? Spoiler - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Rose Cotton · 08-26-2003, 05:29 PM

In the Two Towers DVD in the RotK preview we are told that, in the movie, Sauron will think Pippin has the Ring and that's why he is attacking Minas Tirith.When I first heard this I was thinking "WHAT???!! BURN PETER JACKSON!" But it actually does make sence. Pippin did look into the Palanntir(sp). And really, other then expanding Pippin's role (which I really don't mind) how much could that ruin the movie?[ August 26, 2003: Message edited by: Rose Cotton ]

HCIsland · 08-26-2003, 05:34 PM

This is not inconsistent with the book. See my reply in <A HREF="http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4&t=002274" TARGET=_blank>this thread</A>.H.C.

Lyta_Underhill · 08-27-2003, 10:06 AM

Oooh, this suggests they WILL have the Pippin and the Palantir scene! *pause as Lyta dances about and rejoices for the inclusion of Pippin's watershed scene* I was worried that they wouldn't include the scene itself and have some lame substitution, because so many underestimate or dismiss Pippin's importance to the story and this scene's importance. I did finally get to see TTT again after many months (had only seen it once in the theater in December), and I did notice that, while PJ did rob a lot of the initiative of M and P in the Fangorn scenes, he did keep it in some cases and adequately show the impulsive yet very keen ability of Pippin to think quickly in a crisis, even proactively. After finally re-watching TTT after such a long space, I am also inclined to reverse many of my initial thoughts about Frodo and his scenery chewing. He seemed much harder in demeanor and Elijah's voice even seems lower and more directed than in the first movie, while still taking Gandalf's lessons to heart (although he does have a tendency to snap at Sam too much!). However, I still don't forgive Faramir for his insistence on taking the Ring to Gondor and only changing his mind after seeing the Nazgul and Frodo's problems with the Ring. (All the tearing up of the initial informational exchanges between Faramir and Frodo aside--simply character-wise). This has turned into a bit of a TTT review, hasn't it? I had better not go into my latest impressions of Aragorn and Legolas then! (I will say that Gimli impressed me more than I recall his having done on my first viewing, even with the pratfalls!)Cheers, Lyta

Horse-Maiden of the Shire · 08-27-2003, 02:37 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> When I first heard this I was thinking "WHAT???!! BURN PETER JACKSON!" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Hey, me too. Although my thoughts were something along the lines of "Hey, wait a minute! That didn't happen in the books! Stupid people...oh, wait! Yeah it did! Ha ha ha."

Failivrin · 08-27-2003, 03:31 PM

haha, i believe i was thinking and saying that too. i don't really mind the idea of pippin being thought of as ring bearer thought it does just seem like an idea to soup up the film.i htink from the small glimpse that ROTK looks more consistent than TTT. i must admit, i was really looking forward to TTT after FOTR and i saw it on he 18th. i was expecting it to be really good and i came out intending to go to new zealand, hunt down PJ and kill him on the spot.i hated sam in film two. he got on my nerves, i htink elijah wood is a good actor, but taking o nthe role of frodo seemed a little too much. gimli was good apart from him being 'idiotised', orlando bloom was pretty good though you could tell it was him as he delivers his lines much the same in every film he is in. ian mckellen is a wonderful actor, so is viggo mortensen (despite the dubious accent), i hated faramir; absolutely HATED him because he was so wrong and i despised the merry and pippin sequences just because treebeard was so bad. he changed sizes, he wasn't like i imagined him and i htink it was a mistake to have JRD do the voice because every time i heard it i thought it was gimli. helm's deep was the highlight of course. oh yes, and i hated the winged nazgul. they are described as birds, not dinosaurs.what was the meaning of this thread again?! i forgot in all that reviewing. i am a tolkien purist and i am also a film fanantic so the two don't really mix well. as a film it was very much a middle film and would've been difficult to see without warning of the themes and as a tolkien film it was terrible because it was hardly anything like the book. i will never forgive peter jackson for omitting the voice of saruman, it had better be in film 3.

Meneltarmacil · 08-27-2003, 06:51 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>i hated the winged nazgul. they are described as birds, not dinosaurs.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> That's funny. I don't remember them sounding anything like birds in the books. It specifically says they didn't have feathers, for one, and I got the impression they were more like pterodactyls than anything else from the books. Of course, your opinion my be different than mine.[ August 27, 2003: Message edited by: Meneltarmacil ]

Lily Bracegirdle · 08-28-2003, 05:44 PM

At first, I thought "WHAAAAT?!Pippin?" but then I remembered the palantir. I'm actually a bit glad about that, because it means the Nazgul most likely *didn't* see Frodo at Osgiliath, which is what I believed to be true. (Otherwise that scene is just too ridiculous for words.)The scene where Aragorn says "Sauron's gone unchallenged long enough" also seems to imply he's going to be looking into the palantir too, so yay!-Lily

**The Saucepan Man** · 08-28-2003, 06:29 PM

Yes, I agree that that having Sauron believe Pippin to be the Ringbearer will work well. But I can't get over the inconsistency between this and Frodo's episode with the Nazgul in Osgiliath. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I'm actually a bit glad about that, because it means the Nazgul most likely *didn't* see Frodo at Osgiliath, which is what I believed to be true. (Otherwise that scene is just too ridiculous for words.) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes, I agree that this would redeem that silly little episode somewhat, Lily. The Nazgul confrontation and Faramir's illogical decision to let Frodo and Sam continue on their way to Mordor in consequence of it, was one of my main gripes with TTT. But it still presents problems. Firstly, it is difficult to imagine how a Ringwraith could come that close to the Ring and not sense it (perhaps he just had a bad cold which stuffed up his senses ). But more importantly (in terms of film plausibility) the only possible explanation for that scene for me was that it would lead to Sauron believing that the Ring was bound for Minas Tirith (thus tying in with Aragorn's challenge to him via the Palantir, which I understand will take place in Minas Tirith rather than Edoras). Take that rationale away, and the scene (and indeed the whole journey to Osgiliath) just makes no sense to me at all, except for providing a climax to Frodo and Sam's journey, which could have been achieved by alternative means (and I don't mean Shelob).[ August 28, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ]

Lyta_Underhill · 08-29-2003, 12:38 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Yes, I agree that that having Sauron believe Pippin to be the Ringbearer will work well. But I can't get over the inconsistency between this and Frodo's episode with the Nazgul in Osgiliath.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> After rewatching the scene with Frodo and the Nazgul in Osgiliath, I do not find it hard to believe that the Nazgul might not have seen the Ring. Frodo came just as close to putting it on under the tree on the road out of the Shire; however, the Nazgul were on to the scent then too. I would believe they "smelled" the presence of the Ring but could not pinpoint it. It makes perfect sense that they could believe it to be in Osgiliath, headed for Minas Tirith, although that would necessitate Pippin looking into the Palantir in Minas Tirith, rather than at Orthanc. Hmmmm...how is Gandalf going to justify scooping up one of two inseparable hobbits and spiriting him off to MT, while leaving the other at Orthanc/Edoras? "This'll teach you to grow up for that thing you haven't done yet, Peregrin Took! BWAHAHAHAAAAAAA!!!!" *scratches head* Well, its late, and I'm probably not thinking properly, so off to bed! G'night all!Cheers, Lyta

samrohan · 08-29-2003, 12:58 AM

If I remember well, Gandalf tells Pippin something about Sauron believeing that he was the ringbearer after looking into the Palantir. So PJ is not letting anything out. Sam however does not have a mention about the ring which is a good touch from PJ.

08-26-2003, 05:29 PM	#1
Rose Cotton Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: A place worse then Mordor........School! Posts: 1,075	Another Ringbearer????? Spoiler In the Two Towers DVD in the RotK preview we are told that, in the movie, Sauron will think Pippin has the Ring and that's why he is attacking Minas Tirith.<P>When I first heard this I was thinking "WHAT???!! BURN PETER JACKSON!" <BR>But it actually does make sence. Pippin did look into the Palanntir(sp). And really, other then expanding Pippin's role (which I really don't mind) how much could that ruin the movie?<p>[ August 26, 2003: Message edited by: Rose Cotton ] __________________ "There's nothing you can do, Harry... nothing... he's gone."-Remus Lupin "The closer we are to danger, the further we are from harm."-Pippin (now how can you argue with that logic?)

08-26-2003, 05:34 PM	#2
HCIsland Zombie Cannibal Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,000	This is not inconsistent with the book. See my reply in <A HREF="http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4&t=002274" TARGET=_blank>this thread</A>.<P>H.C. __________________ "Stir not the bitterness in the cup that I mixed myself. Have I not tasted it now many nights upon my tongue, foreboding that worse yet lay in the dregs." -Denethor

08-27-2003, 10:06 AM	#3
Lyta_Underhill Haunted Halfling Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: an uncounted length of steps--floating between air molecules Posts: 841	Oooh, this suggests they WILL have the Pippin and the Palantir scene! pause as Lyta dances about and rejoices for the inclusion of Pippin's watershed scene I was worried that they wouldn't include the scene itself and have some lame substitution, because so many underestimate or dismiss Pippin's importance to the story and this scene's importance. <P>I did finally get to see TTT again after many months (had only seen it once in the theater in December), and I did notice that, while PJ did rob a lot of the initiative of M and P in the Fangorn scenes, he did keep it in some cases and adequately show the impulsive yet very keen ability of Pippin to think quickly in a crisis, even proactively. <P>After finally re-watching TTT after such a long space, I am also inclined to reverse many of my initial thoughts about Frodo and his scenery chewing. He seemed much harder in demeanor and Elijah's voice even seems lower and more directed than in the first movie, while still taking Gandalf's lessons to heart (although he does have a tendency to snap at Sam too much!). However, I still don't forgive Faramir for his insistence on taking the Ring to Gondor and only changing his mind after seeing the Nazgul and Frodo's problems with the Ring. (All the tearing up of the initial informational exchanges between Faramir and Frodo aside--simply character-wise). <P>This has turned into a bit of a TTT review, hasn't it? I had better not go into my latest impressions of Aragorn and Legolas then! (I will say that Gimli impressed me more than I recall his having done on my first viewing, even with the pratfalls!)<P>Cheers,<BR>Lyta __________________ “…she laid herself to rest upon Cerin Amroth; and there is her green grave, until the world is changed, and all the days of her life are utterly forgotten by men that come after, and elanor and niphredil bloom no more east of the Sea.”

08-27-2003, 02:37 PM	#4
Horse-Maiden of the Shire Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Chillaxin' with Glorfindel-441 miles on the RtR Posts: 1,197	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> When I first heard this I was thinking "WHAT???!! BURN PETER JACKSON!" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hey, me too. Although my thoughts were something along the lines of "Hey, wait a minute! That didn't happen in the books! Stupid people...oh, wait! Yeah it did! Ha ha ha." __________________ "There's a big...machine in the sky...some kind of electric snake...coming straight at us." "Shoot it," said my attorney. "Not yet...I want to study its habits."

08-27-2003, 03:31 PM	#5
Failivrin Wight Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: England Posts: 201	haha, i believe i was thinking and saying that too. i don't really mind the idea of pippin being thought of as ring bearer thought it does just seem like an idea to soup up the film.<P>i htink from the small glimpse that ROTK looks more consistent than TTT. i must admit, i was really looking forward to TTT after FOTR and i saw it on he 18th. i was expecting it to be really good and i came out intending to go to new zealand, hunt down PJ and kill him on the spot.<P>i hated sam in film two. he got on my nerves, i htink elijah wood is a good actor, but taking o nthe role of frodo seemed a little too much. gimli was good apart from him being 'idiotised', orlando bloom was pretty good though you could tell it was him as he delivers his lines much the same in every film he is in. ian mckellen is a wonderful actor, so is viggo mortensen (despite the dubious accent), i hated faramir; absolutely HATED him because he was so wrong and i despised the merry and pippin sequences just because treebeard was so bad. he changed sizes, he wasn't like i imagined him and i htink it was a mistake to have JRD do the voice because every time i heard it i thought it was gimli. helm's deep was the highlight of course. oh yes, and i hated the winged nazgul. they are described as birds, not dinosaurs.<P>what was the meaning of this thread again?! i forgot in all that reviewing. i am a tolkien purist and i am also a film fanantic so the two don't really mix well. as a film it was very much a middle film and would've been difficult to see without warning of the themes and as a tolkien film it was terrible because it was hardly anything like the book. i will never forgive peter jackson for omitting the voice of saruman, it had better be in film 3. __________________ no one in particular

08-27-2003, 06:51 PM	#6
Meneltarmacil Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: The bottom of the ocean, discussing philosophy with a giant squid Posts: 2,254	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>i hated the winged nazgul. they are described as birds, not dinosaurs.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>That's funny. I don't remember them sounding anything like birds in the books. It specifically says they didn't have feathers, for one, and I got the impression they were more like pterodactyls than anything else from the books. Of course, your opinion my be different than mine.<p>[ August 27, 2003: Message edited by: Meneltarmacil ] __________________ I ♣ baby seals.

08-28-2003, 05:44 PM	#7
Lily Bracegirdle Wight Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Bree Posts: 210	At first, I thought "WHAAAAT?!Pippin?" but then I remembered the palantir. I'm actually a bit glad about that, because it means the Nazgul most likely didn't see Frodo at Osgiliath, which is what I believed to be true. (Otherwise that scene is just too ridiculous for words.)<P>The scene where Aragorn says "Sauron's gone unchallenged long enough" also seems to imply he's going to be looking into the palantir too, so yay!<P>-Lily __________________ "But nay: the praise of the praiseworthy is above all rewards." - Faramir

08-28-2003, 06:29 PM	#8
The Saucepan Man Corpus Cacophonous Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A green and pleasant land Posts: 8,390	Yes, I agree that that having Sauron believe Pippin to be the Ringbearer will work well. But I can't get over the inconsistency between this and Frodo's episode with the Nazgul in Osgiliath.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I'm actually a bit glad about that, because it means the Nazgul most likely didn't see Frodo at Osgiliath, which is what I believed to be true. (Otherwise that scene is just too ridiculous for words.) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes, I agree that this would redeem that silly little episode somewhat, Lily. The Nazgul confrontation and Faramir's illogical decision to let Frodo and Sam continue on their way to Mordor in consequence of it, was one of my main gripes with TTT. <P>But it still presents problems. Firstly, it is difficult to imagine how a Ringwraith could come that close to the Ring and not sense it (perhaps he just had a bad cold which stuffed up his senses ). But more importantly (in terms of film plausibility) the only possible explanation for that scene for me was that it would lead to Sauron believing that the Ring was bound for Minas Tirith (thus tying in with Aragorn's challenge to him via the Palantir, which I understand will take place in Minas Tirith rather than Edoras). Take that rationale away, and the scene (and indeed the whole journey to Osgiliath) just makes no sense to me at all, except for providing a climax to Frodo and Sam's journey, which could have been achieved by alternative means (and I don't mean Shelob).<p>[ August 28, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ] __________________ Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!

08-29-2003, 12:38 AM	#9
Lyta_Underhill Haunted Halfling Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: an uncounted length of steps--floating between air molecules Posts: 841	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Yes, I agree that that having Sauron believe Pippin to be the Ringbearer will work well. But I can't get over the inconsistency between this and Frodo's episode with the Nazgul in Osgiliath.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>After rewatching the scene with Frodo and the Nazgul in Osgiliath, I do not find it hard to believe that the Nazgul might not have seen the Ring. Frodo came just as close to putting it on under the tree on the road out of the Shire; however, the Nazgul were on to the scent then too. I would believe they "smelled" the presence of the Ring but could not pinpoint it. It makes perfect sense that they could believe it to be in Osgiliath, headed for Minas Tirith, although that would necessitate Pippin looking into the Palantir in Minas Tirith, rather than at Orthanc. Hmmmm...how is Gandalf going to justify scooping up one of two inseparable hobbits and spiriting him off to MT, while leaving the other at Orthanc/Edoras? "This'll teach you to grow up for that thing you haven't done yet, Peregrin Took! BWAHAHAHAAAAAAA!!!!" scratches head Well, its late, and I'm probably not thinking properly, so off to bed! G'night all!<P>Cheers,<BR>Lyta __________________ “…she laid herself to rest upon Cerin Amroth; and there is her green grave, until the world is changed, and all the days of her life are utterly forgotten by men that come after, and elanor and niphredil bloom no more east of the Sea.”

08-29-2003, 12:58 AM	#10
samrohan Wight Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Touring Minas Tirith with Gimli and Legolas Posts: 107	If I remember well, Gandalf tells Pippin something about Sauron believeing that he was the ringbearer after looking into the Palantir. So PJ is not letting anything out. <P>Sam however does not have a mention about the ring which is a good touch from PJ. __________________ I can't believe I have not watched the return of the king yet.