When did Saruman start to turn evil... - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Morgul Queen · 01-31-2003, 04:37 PM

Does anyone have any idea when Saruman started to turn evil?
[img]smilies/confused.gif[/img]

Annúntindomeiel · 01-31-2003, 04:40 PM

On the barrowdowns.com past themes webpage if you click on Saruman it might give you an idea of when he began to turn evil.

Marileangorifurnimaluim · 02-01-2003, 03:58 AM

Welcome to the Downs, Annu!

That's a good question. It encompasses both when and why, and also, how evil? Because it was a gradual process. Saruman did not wake up on Wednesday, March the 4th and decide, "well, that's enough for the good guys. I'm evil now." So an exact time is hard to fix.

What caused Saruman to turn was his study of the arts of Sauron. Specifically the rings of power. His forging his own ring leads one to believe he turned from the idea of learning their secrets to oppose them, to desiring to preserve the art (presumably for the sake of good); then at last to desiring the one ring to study it. Finally he desired to possess the One Ring himself. By this time he was unwittingly imitating Sauron's own dark dreams, hatred and quest for dominance.

Learning the making of the rings was really the study of Celebrimbor's arts. But to understand what Sauron did to bind all the rings, he had to study Sauron. There were hints from Gandalf that research had been done to discover ways the other rings could be freed of the influence of the One Ring. Most likely that research was done by Saruman.

Saruman steeped himself too deeply in Sauron's mindset - he did intensively study Sauron for centuries - and slowly turned. Because Saruman had always been proud and unwilling to share his knowledge, he cut himself off from those who might have noticed the change in him and perhaps brought him back. It's a strange fact that the knowledge of 'Saruman the Wise' in combination with what was probably a well-deserved repute, and the pride that came with it, is truly what caused his downfall.

In terms of timing, one thing we know for certain. Saruman could not have turned before the making of the rings, and he had already turned to evil by the time Bilbo found the ring. He delayed action against the Necromancer of Dol Guldur (who was in fact Sauron), and may even have tipped Sauron off when the White Council finally took action against him.

-Maril

PS - the movie over-stresses the influence of the Palantir on Saruman. The Palantir influenced Denethor in his despair and madness. But Saruman was already 'in trouble' by the time he started using the Palantir. He judgment had already erroded.

01-31-2003, 04:37 PM	#1
Morgul Queen Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dontgonearthe Castle Posts: 414	When did Saruman start to turn evil... Does anyone have any idea when Saruman started to turn evil? [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img] __________________ Athrabeth is still doing the wave for Boromir the Disco-King Oh...and call me Morgy!

01-31-2003, 04:40 PM	#2
Annúntindomeiel Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 12	On the barrowdowns.com past themes webpage if you click on Saruman it might give you an idea of when he began to turn evil. __________________ Instead of a Dark Lord, you would have a queen, not dark but beautiful and terrible as the dawn! Treacherous as the sea and stronger than the foundations of the earth! All shall love me and despair!

02-01-2003, 03:58 AM	#3
Marileangorifurnimaluim Eerie Forest Spectre Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Buried in scrolls of fanfiction Posts: 798	Welcome to the Downs, Annu! That's a good question. It encompasses both when and why, and also, how evil? Because it was a gradual process. Saruman did not wake up on Wednesday, March the 4th and decide, "well, that's enough for the good guys. I'm evil now." So an exact time is hard to fix. What caused Saruman to turn was his study of the arts of Sauron. Specifically the rings of power. His forging his own ring leads one to believe he turned from the idea of learning their secrets to oppose them, to desiring to preserve the art (presumably for the sake of good); then at last to desiring the one ring to study it. Finally he desired to possess the One Ring himself. By this time he was unwittingly imitating Sauron's own dark dreams, hatred and quest for dominance. Learning the making of the rings was really the study of Celebrimbor's arts. But to understand what Sauron did to bind all the rings, he had to study Sauron. There were hints from Gandalf that research had been done to discover ways the other rings could be freed of the influence of the One Ring. Most likely that research was done by Saruman. Saruman steeped himself too deeply in Sauron's mindset - he did intensively study Sauron for centuries - and slowly turned. Because Saruman had always been proud and unwilling to share his knowledge, he cut himself off from those who might have noticed the change in him and perhaps brought him back. It's a strange fact that the knowledge of 'Saruman the Wise' in combination with what was probably a well-deserved repute, and the pride that came with it, is truly what caused his downfall. In terms of timing, one thing we know for certain. Saruman could not have turned before the making of the rings, and he had already turned to evil by the time Bilbo found the ring. He delayed action against the Necromancer of Dol Guldur (who was in fact Sauron), and may even have tipped Sauron off when the White Council finally took action against him. -Maril PS - the movie over-stresses the influence of the Palantir on Saruman. The Palantir influenced Denethor in his despair and madness. But Saruman was already 'in trouble' by the time he started using the Palantir. He judgment had already erroded. __________________ Deserves death! I daresay he does... And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them?