Frodo in the Havens - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Birdland · 02-11-2002, 11:36 PM

I'm sure this has been discussed before, but it's something I always wondered about: When Frodo and Bilbo were allowed to come to the Undying Lands, did they become Immortals, or do you think they lived out their natural life spans and passed on to...wherever.

Either choice seems sad, seeing as they were separated from their people, but maybe a fire and a good book were all they needed for eternity.

Niphredil Baggins · 02-12-2002, 08:34 AM

They did not enter Valinor, which is forbidden to mortals, but remained on an island named Tol Eresseä. They also remained mortals. I think they had a nice time in the company of elves. Stories and songs, food and wine, rest and healing...

Maeglin · 02-13-2002, 01:31 PM

That's childich of the Valar i think. They saved the world, where ringbearers and loved the elves and they werent allowed to get to Aman. Have they never heard of the word compromiss? [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]

Well anyway, I thought that all elves left Tol Eressëa.
This is what the register in my Silmarillion sais (im translating this from swedish):

"The Lonely Island" (also just Eressëa), The Island where vanyar, noldor and later teleri was moved over the sea. The Island later went still (bad translation) in the Eldamarbay outside Amans couste. Teleri stayed a long time on the Island before continuing to Alqualondë; many sindar and noldor lived here after the end of the first age.
(simple and crappy translation. My appologies)

Hmmm... maybe it means that the noldor and sindarin stayed there but that's not how it seems.

Anyway I still think it was childich by the Valar... [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Aralaithiel · 02-13-2002, 03:30 PM

Yeah Maeglin, the Valar did make some questionable decisions. Especially concerning not only the ringbearers, but Galadriel and her "role" in the rebellion.
Alas... [img]smilies/redface.gif[/img]

Rosa Underhill · 02-13-2002, 04:27 PM

Well, that's why Iluvitar is there. He's the one to make all the best decisions. At the end of days, the Ringbearers and everyone who's served, I guess, the side of good is supposed to come to a good place, (so I've heard, and I'm not sure what the place is either), that's probably akin to Heaven.

Thingol · 02-13-2002, 07:00 PM

The elves that sailed west came to Tol Eressa where they could eventually come to Aman if they wanted. There are many boats at the harbor of Alqualondë, so I can only assume that the elves would be allowed to sail back to Tol Eressa. However, once you take the straight road into the west you can't go back to Middle Earth, but I don't think there would be a problem with elves sailing back and forth to Tol Eressa. I never read anywhere that Frodo and Sam wouldn't be allowed to set foot on Aman. The men of Numenor were not allowed to set foot on Aman, but I think that the Valar would have permitted Frodo and Sam to come if they wanted.

the_master_of_puppets · 02-17-2002, 04:08 PM

I feel that Frodo, Bilbo and later Sam would be allowd access 2 whatever the Elves did, otherwise why would Elrond bother letting them come? It would be pointless, because they would be secluded and probably more unhappy than if they'd stayed in the Shire or Rivendell.

What i ask is: did they become immortal? I know someone already asked but i havnt seen a direct reply 2 it yet... [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

Thingol · 02-17-2002, 07:48 PM

They don't become imortal, noone but Illuvitar (God of Middle Earth) can grant or take away immortality.

Man-of-the-Wold · 02-18-2002, 02:18 AM

One interesting thing I've read is that Frodo, Bilbo and Sam did not necessarily gain everlasting life by going to Eldamar, but only the ability to live for quite some time and then die eventually at peace, because otherwise having born the ring tormented their hearts & spirits and interrupted their normal life cycle anyway. Witness that neither Gollum nor Bilbo actually dies after losing the ring, even if natural aging resumes.

Mat_Heathertoes · 02-18-2002, 05:59 PM

"The Doom of the World", they said, "One alone can change who made it. And were you so to voyage that escaping all deceits and snares you came indeed to Aman, the Blessed Realm, little would it profit you. For it is not the land of Manwë that makes its people deathless, but the Deathless that dwell therein have hallowed the land; and there you would but wither and grow weary the sooner, as moths in a light too strong and steadfast."

-Akallabeth p264-

And tales and rumours arose along the shores of the sea concerning mariners and men forlorn upon the water who, by some fate or grace of favour of the Valar, had entered in upon the Straight Way and seen the face of the world sink below them, and so had come to the lamplit quays of Avallónë, or verily to the last beaches on the margin of Aman, and there had looked upon the White Mountain, dreadful and beautiful, before they died.

-Akallabeth p282-

Now I'm not saying that because of these two quotes that Frodo and Bilbo would have climbed out of the grey ship and collapsed dead on the quayside [interesting and almost amusing image, don't you think? Elrond saying "Whoops, i'd forgotten about that..."] but rather that this unusual grace was a fitting way for the free peoples of the world to say 'thanks' for the special sacrifices that these two hobbits had made for the benefit of all. It is noted that there is a comparison one can draw with the Quest for the Silmaril in so far that the participants seemed to benefit from 'unnatural' changes in the respective fates and dooms thereafter (Beren is killed by Carcharoth but allowed a new span of life by Illuvatar. Frodo and Bilbo are physically scarred and distorted by the ravages of the One and granted this special doom perhaps also by Illuvatar relaying the grace via Mithrandir.
Letter 246 from The Letters of JRR Tolkien outlines this concept in great detail a small quote of which is outlined here ..

Frodo was sent or allowed to pass over the Sea to heal him - if that could be done,before he died.
He would eventually have to 'pass away': no mortal could, or can, abide for ever on earth, or within Time. So he went both to a purgatory and to a reward, for a while: a period of reflection and peace and a gaining of a truer understanding of his position in littleness and greatness, spent still in Time, amid the natural beauty of 'Arda Unmarred' , the Earth unspoiled by evil.

Brings a tear to ones eye doesn't it ?
They could've also have just built him a new conservatory at Bag-End and got a him a big bag of Jamaican-style longbottom leaf but that's just a lot of orc-talk .... [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

Aralaithiel · 02-18-2002, 08:05 PM

Quote:

quayside [interesting and almost amusing image, don't you think? Elrond saying "Whoops, i'd forgotten about that..."

Heh heh1 I could see that actually happening, Mat! Although I think Elrond would have preferred it to be Merry & Pippin.
Good one Mat! Oh, cool pic too! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Birdland · 02-18-2002, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mat_Heathertoes:
Now I'm not saying that because of these two quotes that Frodo and Bilbo would have climbed out of the grey ship and collapsed dead on the quayside [interesting and almost amusing image, don't you think? Elrond saying "Whoops, i'd forgotten about that..."

"Master Fro-dooooh! Get off the boat!"

"What, Sam?...I forgot my coat?..."

"The boat! GET OFF THE BOOOAAAT!"

"Can't hear you Sam...Bon Voyage!"

"Eh, ye're on your own, this time..."

(Great quotes, Master Heathertoes. Especially the letter.)

[ July 15, 2002: Message edited by: Birdland ]

07-15-2002, 02:40 PM

At the end of the Sil,it says that they did come to Valinor,I think((I haven't got the book with me...)).But if only Eru can give or take away immortality, what happened with Earendil?He was a man,but Manwe let him choose,and he chose to be immortal.((Am I making sense?!?! [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img] [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img])

02-11-2002, 11:36 PM	#1
Birdland Ghastly Neekerbreeker Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the banks of the mighty Scioto Posts: 1,751	Frodo in the Havens I'm sure this has been discussed before, but it's something I always wondered about: When Frodo and Bilbo were allowed to come to the Undying Lands, did they become Immortals, or do you think they lived out their natural life spans and passed on to...wherever. Either choice seems sad, seeing as they were separated from their people, but maybe a fire and a good book were all they needed for eternity.

02-12-2002, 08:34 AM	#2
Niphredil Baggins Wight Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Finland Posts: 118	They did not enter Valinor, which is forbidden to mortals, but remained on an island named Tol Eresseä. They also remained mortals. I think they had a nice time in the company of elves. Stories and songs, food and wine, rest and healing... __________________ Wistful, willful, wingless, fly!

02-13-2002, 01:31 PM	#3
Maeglin Wight Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Nan Elmoth Posts: 136	That's childich of the Valar i think. They saved the world, where ringbearers and loved the elves and they werent allowed to get to Aman. Have they never heard of the word compromiss? [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] Well anyway, I thought that all elves left Tol Eressëa. This is what the register in my Silmarillion sais (im translating this from swedish): "The Lonely Island" (also just Eressëa), The Island where vanyar, noldor and later teleri was moved over the sea. The Island later went still (bad translation) in the Eldamarbay outside Amans couste. Teleri stayed a long time on the Island before continuing to Alqualondë; many sindar and noldor lived here after the end of the first age. (simple and crappy translation. My appologies) Hmmm... maybe it means that the noldor and sindarin stayed there but that's not how it seems. Anyway I still think it was childich by the Valar... [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ The fool speaks of what he knows. The wise knows what he speaks of.

02-13-2002, 03:30 PM	#4
Aralaithiel Ghost Eldaran Queen Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A remote mountain in Valinor Posts: 353	Yeah Maeglin, the Valar did make some questionable decisions. Especially concerning not only the ringbearers, but Galadriel and her "role" in the rebellion. Alas... [img]smilies/redface.gif[/img] __________________ A lelyat, wen! (Quenya Elvish for "You go, girl!"

02-13-2002, 04:27 PM	#5
Rosa Underhill Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Waymeet, the Shire Posts: 297	Well, that's why Iluvitar is there. He's the one to make all the best decisions. At the end of days, the Ringbearers and everyone who's served, I guess, the side of good is supposed to come to a good place, (so I've heard, and I'm not sure what the place is either), that's probably akin to Heaven. __________________ WWAHD? (What would a Hobbit do?)

02-13-2002, 07:00 PM	#6
Thingol Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Long Island, New York Posts: 259	The elves that sailed west came to Tol Eressa where they could eventually come to Aman if they wanted. There are many boats at the harbor of Alqualondë, so I can only assume that the elves would be allowed to sail back to Tol Eressa. However, once you take the straight road into the west you can't go back to Middle Earth, but I don't think there would be a problem with elves sailing back and forth to Tol Eressa. I never read anywhere that Frodo and Sam wouldn't be allowed to set foot on Aman. The men of Numenor were not allowed to set foot on Aman, but I think that the Valar would have permitted Frodo and Sam to come if they wanted. __________________ Yet the lies that Melkor, the mighty and accursed, Morgoth Bauglir, the Power of Terror and of Hate, sowed in the hearts of Elves and Men are a seed that does not die and cannot be destroyed; and ever and anon it sprouts anew, and will bear dark fruit even unto the latest days.

02-17-2002, 04:08 PM	#7
the_master_of_puppets Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: scotland Posts: 77	I feel that Frodo, Bilbo and later Sam would be allowd access 2 whatever the Elves did, otherwise why would Elrond bother letting them come? It would be pointless, because they would be secluded and probably more unhappy than if they'd stayed in the Shire or Rivendell. What i ask is: did they become immortal? I know someone already asked but i havnt seen a direct reply 2 it yet... [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

02-17-2002, 07:48 PM	#8
Thingol Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Long Island, New York Posts: 259	They don't become imortal, noone but Illuvitar (God of Middle Earth) can grant or take away immortality. __________________ Yet the lies that Melkor, the mighty and accursed, Morgoth Bauglir, the Power of Terror and of Hate, sowed in the hearts of Elves and Men are a seed that does not die and cannot be destroyed; and ever and anon it sprouts anew, and will bear dark fruit even unto the latest days.

02-18-2002, 02:18 AM	#9
Man-of-the-Wold Wight Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: With Tux, dread poodle of Pinnath Galin Posts: 239	One interesting thing I've read is that Frodo, Bilbo and Sam did not necessarily gain everlasting life by going to Eldamar, but only the ability to live for quite some time and then die eventually at peace, because otherwise having born the ring tormented their hearts & spirits and interrupted their normal life cycle anyway. Witness that neither Gollum nor Bilbo actually dies after losing the ring, even if natural aging resumes. __________________ The hoes unrecked in the fields were flung, __ and fallen ladders in the long grass lay __ of the lush orchards; every tree there turned __ its tangled head and eyed them secretly, __ and the ears listened of the nodding grasses; __ though noontide glowed on land and leaf, __ their limbs were chilled.

02-18-2002, 05:59 PM	#10
Mat_Heathertoes Wight Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: A Broom cupboard in Utumno Posts: 185	"The Doom of the World", they said, "One alone can change who made it. And were you so to voyage that escaping all deceits and snares you came indeed to Aman, the Blessed Realm, little would it profit you. For it is not the land of Manwë that makes its people deathless, but the Deathless that dwell therein have hallowed the land; and there you would but wither and grow weary the sooner, as moths in a light too strong and steadfast." -Akallabeth p264- And tales and rumours arose along the shores of the sea concerning mariners and men forlorn upon the water who, by some fate or grace of favour of the Valar, had entered in upon the Straight Way and seen the face of the world sink below them, and so had come to the lamplit quays of Avallónë, or verily to the last beaches on the margin of Aman, and there had looked upon the White Mountain, dreadful and beautiful, before they died. -Akallabeth p282- Now I'm not saying that because of these two quotes that Frodo and Bilbo would have climbed out of the grey ship and collapsed dead on the quayside [interesting and almost amusing image, don't you think? Elrond saying "Whoops, i'd forgotten about that..."] but rather that this unusual grace was a fitting way for the free peoples of the world to say 'thanks' for the special sacrifices that these two hobbits had made for the benefit of all. It is noted that there is a comparison one can draw with the Quest for the Silmaril in so far that the participants seemed to benefit from 'unnatural' changes in the respective fates and dooms thereafter (Beren is killed by Carcharoth but allowed a new span of life by Illuvatar. Frodo and Bilbo are physically scarred and distorted by the ravages of the One and granted this special doom perhaps also by Illuvatar relaying the grace via Mithrandir. Letter 246 from The Letters of JRR Tolkien outlines this concept in great detail a small quote of which is outlined here .. Frodo was sent or allowed to pass over the Sea to heal him - if that could be done,before he died. He would eventually have to 'pass away': no mortal could, or can, abide for ever on earth, or within Time. So he went both to a purgatory and to a reward, for a while: a period of reflection and peace and a gaining of a truer understanding of his position in littleness and greatness, spent still in Time, amid the natural beauty of 'Arda Unmarred' , the Earth unspoiled by evil. Brings a tear to ones eye doesn't it ? They could've also have just built him a new conservatory at Bag-End and got a him a big bag of Jamaican-style longbottom leaf but that's just a lot of orc-talk .... [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] __________________ Give me fish now, and keep nassty chips!

07-15-2002, 02:40 PM	#13
Elessar,Elfstone Guest Posts: n/a	At the end of the Sil,it says that they did come to Valinor,I think((I haven't got the book with me...)).But if only Eru can give or take away immortality, what happened with Earendil?He was a man,but Manwe let him choose,and he chose to be immortal.((Am I making sense?!?! [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img] [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img])