oh no..... - Page 2 - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Diamond18 · 11-08-2002, 08:45 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Even if it was in the books that Grima looked at Eowyn in dark desire, I think it should not be in the films. It just does not fit! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Hmmmm...last time I checked, anything that is in the book, fits. But that may just be my opinion...

Bill Ferny · 11-09-2002, 10:34 AM

Maybe this kind of speculation is better suited in “The Books” section, but to me there seems to be a parallel between Gríma and Éowyn.The line quoted by Diamond18 could be a single throw away line, but I lean more toward it being a line that reveals something important about Gríma’s psychology. He’s not an orc, he is capable of making moral choice. So something in his psyche makes it easier for Saruman to twist him to his will. Throughout the story Gríma is portrayed as weak, but also as a co-dependent. His co-dependency probably hinges on his physical shortcomings. He needs recognition, attention, and acceptance, but lives among a warrior people. He can not stand on his own physically or mentally among these people. He is, therefore, jealous, not hateful, of the people of Rohan. Part of him, the surface part, might desire Éowyn because he wants to get his rocks off, but deeper, I think, he wants to be loved in order to find acceptance from the people that which he is so intensely jealous. If Saruman can give him the means to force this love and acceptance, then so be it, a man like him will take it anyway he can get it.As I pointed out on Lush’s parallel thread in “The Books”, Éowyn desires not to love, but to be loved by Aragorn in order to capture for herself and her people the greatness embodied by Aragorn. In a way she is co-dependent as well, and definitely jealous of those who ride to battle. She doesn’t like her appointed duties, and sees these duties as the result of her gender. She perceives her gender as a weakness. Unlike Gríma, though, she is not weak, but strong, noble and great. She already possesses the qualities that Aragorn embodies, and Faramir helps her to see this. She comes to realize that she doesn’t need the love of Aragorn, or any man for that matter, to be noble.In the end Gríma realizes that he has been betrayed and forsook by Saruman. Saruman was never his friend; Saruman never accepted him or cared about him. Gríma realized that Saruman had used him, twisted him, and made him into a cannibalistic animal (which was one thing that he, himself, said he never wanted to be). I pity Wormtongue more than hate him. Think of it this way: what if Gandalf, and not Saruman, had gotten a hold of Gríma in the beginning?

Helkasir · 11-09-2002, 11:59 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Hmmmm...last time I checked, anything that is in the book, fits. But that may just be my opinion... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>actually, i'd say that it's a fact. IF and when tolkien has a sex scene in the books, or has a love triangle, the love triangle should go in, as well as a full frontal nudity scene if sex is involved as well. but it wasn't in the books, PJ just seems to be making too big a deal of the minor characters.

Estelyn Telcontar · 11-09-2002, 02:13 PM

Well, Tolkien does have a scene with nudity in the book - should we be disappointed or thankful that PJ didn't include it in the movie? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Clothes are but little loss, if you escape from drowning. Be glad, my merry friends, and let the warm sunlight heat now heart and limb! Cast off these cold rags! Run naked on the grass, while Tom goes a'hunting! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ainalondwen · 11-09-2002, 02:14 PM

After studying Media at school, then promptly leaving school, all I can say is: It's a picture, made to capture imagination. To entice people to go and see what the outcome is.My guess - a lot of people will go to see the film to see what happens between Aragorn/Arwen/Eowyn. I believe PJ won't take a course TOO far from the books. Chill.

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 11-09-2002, 02:54 PM

Why would the casual fan go to the cinema to see what happens between Aragorn, Eowyn and Arwen? The casual fan is going to see this film for the adventure and the battles.And Frodo spends half the book naked (insert possible hyperbole), get over it.

Keneldil the Polka-dot · 11-11-2002, 09:30 AM

I agree with Ainalondwen. It's just a ploy to get more people to go to the movie. PJ has a bottom line to attend to as well as his responsibility to faithfully represent Tolkien's work. It is only smart business to try to make the movie appeal to as broad an audience as possible. My first thought when I found out the LoTR was being made into movies was "Oh no, what kind of mess are they going to make?", but I was pleasantly wrong. Maybe we all ought to have a little more faith in PJ, at least until he shows otherwise. He did a pretty good job with the first one didn't he?

Helkasir · 11-11-2002, 09:38 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Well, Tolkien does have a scene with nudity in the book - should we be disappointed or thankful that PJ didn't include it in the movie? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I'd say disappointed, because I wanted to see tom and such. even if the are... male hobbits...

Mlo · 11-11-2002, 11:33 AM

Awww... poor old Tom... but I think that the people who havent read LotR would be quite annoyed, and some of the LotR fans I know really hate poor Tom, so maybe it was for the best that he wasn't in the movie..... But I'm a little sad they didn't put the Barrowdowns in the movie. That would give a better explanation to how the hobbits got their swords, than just Aragorn giving them...[ November 11, 2002: Message edited by: Mlo ]

Keneldil the Polka-dot · 11-11-2002, 11:54 AM

I think all of us would liked to have seen everything Tolkien wrote in the FoTR accurately reproduced in the movie. The whole scene with Old Man Willow and the Barrow Wights would have been good stuff. The movie was already three hours long, PJ had to make some hard decisions on what to edit. Plus imagine the questions the casual fan would have after listening to Tom Bombadil. We have whole threads and essays here in the Downs about that guy, casual fans would have had a hard time making heads or tails out of him.

TolkienGurl · 11-14-2002, 02:15 PM

I'm sorry, but I really don't want to see naked Hobbits (Eeew!), even though I am well aware that it was in the books: I just read that part not too long ago (I am rereading LOTR before TTT comes out). That's just my personal preference. [ November 14, 2002: Message edited by: TolkienGurl ]

11-08-2002, 08:45 PM	#41
Diamond18 Eidolon of a Took Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: my own private fantasy world Posts: 3,460	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Even if it was in the books that Grima looked at Eowyn in dark desire, I think it should not be in the films. It just does not fit! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hmmmm...last time I checked, anything that is in the book, fits. But that may just be my opinion... __________________ All shall be rather fond of me and suffer from mild depression.

11-09-2002, 10:34 AM	#42
Bill Ferny Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Bree Posts: 390	Maybe this kind of speculation is better suited in “The Books” section, but to me there seems to be a parallel between Gríma and Éowyn.<P>The line quoted by Diamond18 could be a single throw away line, but I lean more toward it being a line that reveals something important about Gríma’s psychology. He’s not an orc, he is capable of making moral choice. So something in his psyche makes it easier for Saruman to twist him to his will. Throughout the story Gríma is portrayed as weak, but also as a co-dependent. His co-dependency probably hinges on his physical shortcomings. He needs recognition, attention, and acceptance, but lives among a warrior people. He can not stand on his own physically or mentally among these people. He is, therefore, jealous, not hateful, of the people of Rohan. Part of him, the surface part, might desire Éowyn because he wants to get his rocks off, but deeper, I think, he wants to be loved in order to find acceptance from the people that which he is so intensely jealous. If Saruman can give him the means to force this love and acceptance, then so be it, a man like him will take it anyway he can get it.<P>As I pointed out on Lush’s parallel thread in “The Books”, Éowyn desires not to love, but to be loved by Aragorn in order to capture for herself and her people the greatness embodied by Aragorn. In a way she is co-dependent as well, and definitely jealous of those who ride to battle. She doesn’t like her appointed duties, and sees these duties as the result of her gender. She perceives her gender as a weakness. Unlike Gríma, though, she is not weak, but strong, noble and great. She already possesses the qualities that Aragorn embodies, and Faramir helps her to see this. She comes to realize that she doesn’t need the love of Aragorn, or any man for that matter, to be noble.<P>In the end Gríma realizes that he has been betrayed and forsook by Saruman. Saruman was never his friend; Saruman never accepted him or cared about him. Gríma realized that Saruman had used him, twisted him, and made him into a cannibalistic animal (which was one thing that he, himself, said he never wanted to be). I pity Wormtongue more than hate him. Think of it this way: what if Gandalf, and not Saruman, had gotten a hold of Gríma in the beginning? __________________ I prefer Gillaume d’Férny, connoisseur of fine fruit.

11-09-2002, 11:59 AM	#43
Helkasir Haunting Spirit Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: North of the Iron Hills Posts: 89	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Hmmmm...last time I checked, anything that is in the book, fits. But that may just be my opinion...<P> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>actually, i'd say that it's a fact. <P>IF and when tolkien has a sex scene in the books, or has a love triangle, the love triangle should go in, as well as a full frontal nudity scene if sex is involved as well. but it wasn't in the books, PJ just seems to be making too big a deal of the minor characters. __________________ "Onen i-Estal Edain, u-chebin estel anim."

11-09-2002, 02:13 PM	#44
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	Well, Tolkien does have a scene with nudity in the book - should we be disappointed or thankful that PJ didn't include it in the movie? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Clothes are but little loss, if you escape from drowning. Be glad, my merry friends, and let the warm sunlight heat now heart and limb! Cast off these cold rags! Run naked on the grass, while Tom goes a'hunting! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

11-09-2002, 02:14 PM	#45
Ainalondwen Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The (Perth)Shire, Scotland Posts: 22	After studying Media at school, then promptly leaving school, all I can say is: It's a picture, made to capture imagination. To entice people to go and see what the outcome is.<P>My guess - a lot of people will go to see the film to see what happens between Aragorn/Arwen/Eowyn. I believe PJ won't take a course TOO far from the books. Chill. __________________ Aa' i'sul nora lanne'lle, Aa' lasser en lle coia orn n' omenta gurtha, Aa' menealle nauva calen ar' malta, Aa' menle nauva calen ar' ta hwesta e' ale'quenle Read Feist

11-09-2002, 02:54 PM	#46
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,859	Why would the casual fan go to the cinema to see what happens between Aragorn, Eowyn and Arwen? The casual fan is going to see this film for the adventure and the battles.<P>And Frodo spends half the book naked (insert possible hyperbole), get over it. __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

11-11-2002, 09:30 AM	#47
Keneldil the Polka-dot Wight Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Michigan Posts: 128	I agree with Ainalondwen. It's just a ploy to get more people to go to the movie. PJ has a bottom line to attend to as well as his responsibility to faithfully represent Tolkien's work. It is only smart business to try to make the movie appeal to as broad an audience as possible. My first thought when I found out the LoTR was being made into movies was "Oh no, what kind of mess are they going to make?", but I was pleasantly wrong. Maybe we all ought to have a little more faith in PJ, at least until he shows otherwise. He did a pretty good job with the first one didn't he? __________________ "Trust in the ball Jake.....and throw yourself."

11-11-2002, 09:38 AM	#48
Helkasir Haunting Spirit Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: North of the Iron Hills Posts: 89	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Well, Tolkien does have a scene with nudity in the book - should we be disappointed or thankful that PJ didn't include it in the movie? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I'd say disappointed, because I wanted to see tom and such. even if the are... male hobbits... __________________ "Onen i-Estal Edain, u-chebin estel anim."

11-11-2002, 11:33 AM	#49
Mlo Haunting Spirit Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Sweden Posts: 65	Awww... poor old Tom... but I think that the people who havent read LotR would be quite annoyed, and some of the LotR fans I know really hate poor Tom, so maybe it was for the best that he wasn't in the movie.....<BR>But I'm a little sad they didn't put the Barrowdowns in the movie. That would give a better explanation to how the hobbits got their swords, than just Aragorn giving them...<p>[ November 11, 2002: Message edited by: Mlo ] __________________ I may not agree with a word you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it. -Voltaire

11-11-2002, 11:54 AM	#50
Keneldil the Polka-dot Wight Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Michigan Posts: 128	I think all of us would liked to have seen everything Tolkien wrote in the FoTR accurately reproduced in the movie. The whole scene with Old Man Willow and the Barrow Wights would have been good stuff. The movie was already three hours long, PJ had to make some hard decisions on what to edit. Plus imagine the questions the casual fan would have after listening to Tom Bombadil. We have whole threads and essays here in the Downs about that guy, casual fans would have had a hard time making heads or tails out of him. __________________ "Trust in the ball Jake.....and throw yourself."

11-14-2002, 02:15 PM	#51
TolkienGurl Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Michigan, USA Posts: 637	I'm sorry, but I really don't want to see naked Hobbits (Eeew!), even though I am well aware that it was in the books: I just read that part not too long ago (I am rereading LOTR before TTT comes out). That's just my personal preference.<P><BR> <p>[ November 14, 2002: Message edited by: TolkienGurl ] __________________ Hopes fail. An end comes. We have only a little time to wait now. We are lost in ruin and downfall and there is no escape. -Frodo My Livejournal