"The World of Men" - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Iarwain · 03-02-2003, 02:27 PM

I've thought about this a lot, but never considered posting about it. What is with the whole "the world of men shall fall" theme, when Sauron's armies, and Saruman's are all backed up by men!?! It's very annoying. Perhaps the lines should have been changed to "the west of Middle-Earth shall fall". It would have made more sense and been more consistent. Why would Sauron want to kill off the race that has proved to be his greatest tool? Saruman even speaks about ruling the world of men through the ring! Why add in an extra theme for the story when none is needed?Iarwain

Meela · 03-02-2003, 02:38 PM

isnt it to do with the fact that the men he wants to fall are descendants of the men who resisted and fought at the battle of the last alliance? the men who work for sauron didnt resist

Rynoah, the Overly-Happy · 03-02-2003, 03:26 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>What is with the whole "the world of men shall fall" theme<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>If I remember correctly, it was Boromir who actually said the world of men would fall and this was as he was bleeding to death with a lot of Uruk-hai arrows styling his fashionable attire. I think he was referring to the fact that already the Southern men had sworn allegiance to Sauron and that soon the rest of Men would follow suit.When Elrond and Gandalf are speaking in Rivendell and Elrond says that Men are weak, I think he was pondering along the same lines as Boromir did during his final moments. So I don't think they were talking about the extinction of Men per se, but rather their fall to Sauron's rule.

Tar-Palantir · 03-02-2003, 04:31 PM

It is said more than once - Aragorn says it to Theoden (maybe someone else). Theoden says something like 'what is the purpose of (something or other)' and Aragorn says "..to destroy the world of men."It is a tad strange to say that. There are other races on ME Sauron would dispose of or enslave, not just men.

**The Saucepan Man** · 03-02-2003, 06:37 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> ... the Southern men had sworn allegiance to Sauron and that soon the rest of Men would follow suit. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Precisely, the Men of Sauron's armies had already fallen.I see this as a development of one of the big themes in the LotR books - that the time of Elves, Dwarves and the like was passing and that it was Men who would inherit ME. If the race that was just coming into its own had fallen under Sauron's thrall, then he would truly have achieved dominion over ME.

GaladrieloftheOlden · 03-02-2003, 08:47 PM

You said something about why he would want to destroy Men after they had helped him...well, that's ingratitude for you! , no, he used them, but I think he just cast them aside when he didn't need them. He probably doesn't mean all Men, some of the Wild Men are a part of his army, but, who knows, he could end up turning on them as well.

Iarwain · 03-02-2003, 10:33 PM

That makes no sense to me at all, Old Galadriel. Saruman himself says that Gandalf is a fool because he "drops his tools as soon as he has finished his task". Would not that constitute as the same sort of "folly"? I realize that "the world of men" is used on many occaisons in the movie, and not only by bad characters, but it is never once to my recolection mentioned in that way in the book. The story is already packed full of underlying themes and symbolism. Thus the question: Why add an additional theme, PJ? Perhaps artistic vision has interfered with the logical portion of his brain? It is useless and degradational. It takes away from the true understanding of Sauron's purpose. He doesn't merely wish to destroy mankind, we wants to gain ultimate control of Middle-Earth as a whole. Men are merely a factor in that main goal. Does everyone understand my question better now?Iarwain

Lush · 03-02-2003, 10:43 PM

I understand yer question, but I think that Peter Jackson was hardly trying to introduce a new theme."The world of men shall fall"-That does not mean actual physical destruction. That means enslavement. Degradation. Perversion. Corruption. And so on.Think about the meaning behind the archaic label of "the fallen woman." The woman in question was not being described as having been physically destroyed, rather corrupted.

Iarwain · 03-03-2003, 05:15 PM

Clever, I suppose the fact that I took it as a new theme made me a bit shallow in the matter. Thank you! Thankfully, Iarwain

mollecon · 03-03-2003, 05:18 PM

I would prefer to interpret it that way too, Lush. Nevertheless, it would be difficult to contradict an interpretation more along the lines of genecide - that Saruman (& maybe Sauron too) are attempting to simply kill off humans as a race.One could think of the 'world of men' in terms of the men of Numenor - but that would only make sense to people who knows the books. I must say that was a point in the TTT movie that left me a bit confused.

**The Saucepan Man** · 03-03-2003, 07:30 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I realize that "the world of men" is used on many occaisons in the movie, and not only by bad characters, but it is never once to my recolection mentioned in that way in the book. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Isn't it kind of implicit in the fact that the Elves are gradually heading West? Also the fact that the ME of LotR represents our world some four Ages or so ago, and has in fact become a world of Men.

aragornreborn · 03-03-2003, 09:06 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I see this as a development of one of the big themes in the LotR books - that the time of Elves, Dwarves and the like was passing and that it was Men who would inherit ME. If the race that was just coming into its own had fallen under Sauron's thrall, then he would truly have achieved dominion over ME. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>That's what I had always thought. Men were coming into their inheritance, and if Sauron won, the kingdom of men would never come to pass. They would still exist as slaves/subjects, but, it would not be their world.

Lush · 03-04-2003, 01:59 AM

Arguably, Saruman harping on about wiping out all of Rohan's people like some long-haired version of Herr Adolf Hitler was somewhat of a departure from the book, but I don't see Peter Jackson & Co. having the same problem with the head honcho himself, Sauron.

03-04-2003, 04:24 AM

Doesn't Aragorn say at some stage about the Nazgul that they were "one by one fallen into darkness"?So I kinda associated falling with falling into darkness ie. under Sauron's control :} Like what THOSE people *points upward* said :}

Lyra Greenleaf · 03-04-2003, 12:47 PM

i would have thought that the 'free peoples' sums it up really, the realms that have not been enslaved by sauron already. so that would be rohan, gondor, the shire, etc. but then again, i think that after, he might have continued to wipe out all the other races of men. i'm guessing that in the film they just try to make it easier to understand for someone just sitting there by saying flat that he wants to wipe out mankind.

03-02-2003, 02:27 PM	#1
Iarwain Pugnaciously Primordial Paradox Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Birnham Wood Posts: 800	"The World of Men" I've thought about this a lot, but never considered posting about it. What is with the whole "the world of men shall fall" theme, when Sauron's armies, and Saruman's are all backed up by men!?! It's very annoying. Perhaps the lines should have been changed to "the west of Middle-Earth shall fall". It would have made more sense and been more consistent. Why would Sauron want to kill off the race that has proved to be his greatest tool? Saruman even speaks about ruling the world of men through the ring! Why add in an extra theme for the story when none is needed?<P>Iarwain __________________ "And what are oaths but words we say to God?"

03-02-2003, 02:38 PM	#2
Meela Denethor's True Love Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Mirkwood. With Thranduil... swoon Posts: 2,049	isnt it to do with the fact that the men he wants to fall are descendants of the men who resisted and fought at the battle of the last alliance? the men who work for sauron didnt resist __________________ 'The Hobbit' 1st impressions: 1. Thorin is hot... Oh god, I fancy a dwarf. 2. Thranduil is hotter. 3. Is that... Figwit! 4. Does Elijah Wood never age? 2nd: It's all about Fili & Kili, really. 3rd: BARD! OMG, Bard.

03-02-2003, 03:26 PM	#3
Rynoah, the Overly-Happy Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Arizona Posts: 474	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>What is with the whole "the world of men shall fall" theme<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>If I remember correctly, it was Boromir who actually said the world of men would fall and this was as he was bleeding to death with a lot of Uruk-hai arrows styling his fashionable attire. I think he was referring to the fact that already the Southern men had sworn allegiance to Sauron and that soon the rest of Men would follow suit.<P>When Elrond and Gandalf are speaking in Rivendell and Elrond says that Men are weak, I think he was pondering along the same lines as Boromir did during his final moments. So I don't think they were talking about the extinction of Men per se, but rather their fall to Sauron's rule. __________________ Spook the spook of spookish spookdom to spook the spooked spookers. ?!?! This isn't Osgiliath! Do the wave for Boromir the Disco King! Eat squid for Boromir the Disco King!

03-02-2003, 04:31 PM	#4
Tar-Palantir Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: napa valley, ca Posts: 496	It is said more than once - Aragorn says it to Theoden (maybe someone else). Theoden says something like 'what is the purpose of (something or other)' and Aragorn says "..to destroy the world of men."<P>It is a tad strange to say that. There are other races on ME Sauron would dispose of or enslave, not just men. __________________ History shows again and again How nature points up the folly of men Go, go, Godzilla!

03-02-2003, 06:37 PM	#5
The Saucepan Man Corpus Cacophonous Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A green and pleasant land Posts: 8,390	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> ... the Southern men had sworn allegiance to Sauron and that soon the rest of Men would follow suit. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Precisely, the Men of Sauron's armies had already fallen.<P>I see this as a development of one of the big themes in the LotR books - that the time of Elves, Dwarves and the like was passing and that it was Men who would inherit ME. If the race that was just coming into its own had fallen under Sauron's thrall, then he would truly have achieved dominion over ME. __________________ Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!

03-02-2003, 08:47 PM	#6
GaladrieloftheOlden Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Massachusetts - digging up a bottomless hole, searching for something that's not there... Posts: 1,514	You said something about why he would want to destroy Men after they had helped him...well, that's ingratitude for you! , no, he used them, but I think he just cast them aside when he didn't need them. He probably doesn't mean all Men, some of the Wild Men are a part of his army, but, who knows, he could end up turning on them as well. __________________ "Glue... very powerful stuff."

03-02-2003, 10:33 PM	#7
Iarwain Pugnaciously Primordial Paradox Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Birnham Wood Posts: 800	That makes no sense to me at all, Old Galadriel. Saruman himself says that Gandalf is a fool because he "drops his tools as soon as he has finished his task". Would not that constitute as the same sort of "folly"? I realize that "the world of men" is used on many occaisons in the movie, and not only by bad characters, but it is never once to my recolection mentioned in that way in the book. The story is already packed full of underlying themes and symbolism. Thus the question: Why add an additional theme, PJ? Perhaps artistic vision has interfered with the logical portion of his brain? It is useless and degradational. It takes away from the true understanding of Sauron's purpose. He doesn't merely wish to destroy mankind, we wants to gain ultimate control of Middle-Earth as a whole. Men are merely a factor in that main goal. Does everyone understand my question better now?<P>Iarwain __________________ "And what are oaths but words we say to God?"

03-02-2003, 10:43 PM	#8
Lush Fair and Cold Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the big onion Posts: 1,770	I understand yer question, but I think that Peter Jackson was hardly trying to introduce a new theme.<P>"The world of men shall fall"-That does not mean actual physical destruction. That means enslavement. Degradation. Perversion. Corruption. And so on.<P>Think about the meaning behind the archaic label of "the fallen woman." The woman in question was not being described as having been physically destroyed, rather corrupted. __________________ ~The beginning is the word and the end is silence. And in between are all the stories. This is one of mine~

03-03-2003, 05:15 PM	#9
Iarwain Pugnaciously Primordial Paradox Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Birnham Wood Posts: 800	Clever, I suppose the fact that I took it as a new theme made me a bit shallow in the matter. Thank you! <P>Thankfully,<BR>Iarwain __________________ "And what are oaths but words we say to God?"

03-03-2003, 05:18 PM	#10
mollecon Wight Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Denmark Posts: 188	I would prefer to interpret it that way too, Lush. Nevertheless, it would be difficult to contradict an interpretation more along the lines of genecide - that Saruman (& maybe Sauron too) are attempting to simply kill off humans as a race.<P>One could think of the 'world of men' in terms of the men of Numenor - but that would only make sense to people who knows the books. I must say that was a point in the TTT movie that left me a bit confused.

03-03-2003, 07:30 PM	#11
The Saucepan Man Corpus Cacophonous Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A green and pleasant land Posts: 8,390	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I realize that "the world of men" is used on many occaisons in the movie, and not only by bad characters, but it is never once to my recolection mentioned in that way in the book. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Isn't it kind of implicit in the fact that the Elves are gradually heading West? Also the fact that the ME of LotR represents our world some four Ages or so ago, and has in fact become a world of Men. __________________ Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!

03-03-2003, 09:06 PM	#12
aragornreborn Wight Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: U.S.A. Posts: 182	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I see this as a development of one of the big themes in the LotR books - that the time of Elves, Dwarves and the like was passing and that it was Men who would inherit ME. If the race that was just coming into its own had fallen under Sauron's thrall, then he would truly have achieved dominion over ME.<BR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That's what I had always thought. Men were coming into their inheritance, and if Sauron won, the kingdom of men would never come to pass. They would still exist as slaves/subjects, but, it would not be their world. __________________ At the name of Jesus every knee should bow and every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. - Phil. 2:10-11

03-04-2003, 01:59 AM	#13
Lush Fair and Cold Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the big onion Posts: 1,770	Arguably, Saruman harping on about wiping out all of Rohan's people like some long-haired version of Herr Adolf Hitler was somewhat of a departure from the book, but I don't see Peter Jackson & Co. having the same problem with the head honcho himself, Sauron. __________________ ~The beginning is the word and the end is silence. And in between are all the stories. This is one of mine~

03-04-2003, 04:24 AM	#14
Sambar Guest Posts: n/a	Doesn't Aragorn say at some stage about the Nazgul that they were "one by one fallen into darkness"?<P>So I kinda associated falling with falling into darkness ie. under Sauron's control :} Like what THOSE people points upward said :}

03-04-2003, 12:47 PM	#15
Lyra Greenleaf The Diaphanous Dryad Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: R toL: 531, past the wild path Posts: 1,152	i would have thought that the 'free peoples' sums it up really, the realms that have not been enslaved by sauron already. so that would be rohan, gondor, the shire, etc. but then again, i think that after, he might have continued to wipe out all the other races of men. i'm guessing that in the film they just try to make it easier to understand for someone just sitting there by saying flat that he wants to wipe out mankind. __________________ “Sylphs of the forest,” I whispered. “Spirits of oak, beech and ash. Dryads of Rowan and hazel, hear us. You who have guided and guarded our every footstep, you who have sheltered our growth, we honour you." the Forbidden Link